1334 réponses à ce sujet

[KingKhan03]

hector7rau wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Quietness wrote...

Calamity wrote...

Quit responding to them Quiet - its what they want. Just continue the other discussion that is going on.

Not a problem will do, i was just getting confirmation on how they work. I poked and poked and yup seems like it worked. I will leave the silly ones alone ^^

flamebaiting is against the rules consider yourself reported

I Agree:D

Modifié par KingKhan03, 29 mars 2012 - 09:30 .

[win746]

Gooooooo........ BIOWARE FANS!

Hold the line.

[Taritu]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Exeider wrote...

hell, no, i reject that on principle alone, why should he get paid to do something WE did for ourselves.

I want him to go through the exact same course that we did. To pay him would negate the whole purpose of the experiment, because he would be doing for a pay check, not to see how it feels.

-AE

In that case, my counter-offer would be for you to ship an award-winning AAA game trilogy and moderate their online community so you can "go through the exact same course that we did." I mean, without going through that, how we trust any argument you make? how you have any basis by which to make any argument?

Personally, I think it's possible to "walk a mile in someone else's shoes" without physically putting on their shoes and walking an actual mile. We can imagine and simulate much of it based on prior experience and our freedom of expression.

Ha! Nicely played. At the same time, this leads to the chef/customer metaphor, which is to say that I may not be able to make some of the meals I eat, but I can tell when they're burnt.

I was an a-list political blogger for many years.  I don't know what your hate-mail is like, but I know hate mail.  It's hard, when  you're getting it, to see when someone makes a valid point amidst the hate.  And it's worse when you're not at liberty to make decisions yourself. 

I also used to advise people on PR, and worked with some of the gurus in the field, including one of the guys who wrote the book on trust in business.  Listening is good, but acknowledging the validity of customer complaints is key to trust.  If you can't acknowledge them, not in the form of "you have a right to your 'feelings'" but in the form of "well, you have some good points", then the meta is that you don't respect your customer's opinion.  Now, as we used to joke back when I did CSR "the customer is usually wrong", but that's incredibly insulting, and I don't think it's true here.  The fact that no one in Bioware, publicly at least, seems to actually think that there's some validity to the complaints about the ending beyond "oh, we didn't explain it well enough" or "they just wanted a happy ending", smacks of either groupthink or hard-core corporate messaging control.  I'm guessing mostly #2, with some #1.

That may seem insulting, but I've been on the inside, I know what it's like to be told to shut it, and follow corporate directives.

My personal rule was that if I made a clear mistake, to revisit it, honestly, as soon as possible, even making corrections at the top of posts, and so on.  If a huge number of people didn't get my writing, I also understood that the issue was likely me, not them.

Once you lose trust, it's really hard to get it back.  People forgive mistakes.  They become infuriated by stonewalling and then that fury turns to contempt.

It's not your fault at all, I'm sure, but Bioware /is/ mishandling this from a trust PR perspective.  The brand is being damaged by this, after the kerfuffle around DA2.

I liked the game.  More than that, I think it was a great game, just a great game with great flaws.  I appreciate the few devs who are willing to still talk to the community, just as I did after DA2.  It takes guts, and it takes mental fortitude, having dealt with nasty commenters for years, I know how tiring it is.

So best wishes to y'all.  Just remember, it doesn't take much to destroy a brand, if it's the core that's being hit at, and the core of Bioware's brand is "storytelling".  If people lose trust that Bioware knows how to tell a story, EA loses a lot of what they paid for.  Sales are a lagging indicator in brand destruction, not a leading one.

Oh, and do also remember, the people who complain are generally representative of a larger # of people who don't complain but feel the same way.  In the pre-internet days we used to say the ratio was 100 upset people for every complainer.  I'm sure it's less now, but it's not 1/1.  The "the vast majority love it" line is not necessarily the case.  It might be, but it equally well might not be.

This issue needs to be taken really, really seriously, from a cold hard cash business perspective.

Modifié par Taritu, 29 mars 2012 - 09:49 .

[Dreogan]

I think you won, Taritu. Allow me to give you one (1) internets as your prize.

[BioReaperEA]

The one thing about all this is how EA/Bioware hides behind the whole "This is ART" as a reason why they shouldn't craft their product to what the fans/customers want or at least suggest. When I build an industrial hose or weld together some item, I can call it a work of art. But, if the customer doesn't like it or calls it crap and doesn't work for them... I FIX IT BECAUSE THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT!

If I turned out stuff that's crap, I'm out of business. I don't really give a flying *&@% about the art of it, I want to make the customer happy. If Bioware wants to tick us off and lie about the whole "your decisions have a major impact in the game" then I I'll take my business elsewhere. Da vinci never turned around to an audiance and said to John Q public...Hey, come up here and paint whatever you want in these spots on the mona lisa because it's "YOUR" mona lisa.

Movie makers test screen their movies before release and fix them if needed. Automobile manufactuers, and others, test market their new cars before mass production and fix them if needed. These things are works of art too.

[Dreogan]

BioReaperEA wrote...

The one thing about all this is how EA/Bioware hides behind the whole "This is ART" as a reason why they shouldn't craft their product to what the fans/customers want or at least suggest. When I build an industrial hose or weld together some item, I can call it a work of art. But, if the customer doesn't like it or calls it crap and doesn't work for them... I FIX IT BECAUSE THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT!

If I turned out stuff that's crap, I'm out of business. I don't really give a flying *&@% about the art of it, I want to make the customer happy. If Bioware wants to tick us off and lie about the whole "your decisions have a major impact in the game" then I I'll take my business elsewhere. Da vinci never turned around to an audiance and said to John Q public...Hey, come up here and paint whatever you want in these spots on the mona lisa because it's "YOUR" mona lisa.

Movie makers test screen their movies before release and fix them if needed. Automobile manufactuers, and others, test market their new cars before mass production and fix them if needed. These things are works of art too.

The whole reason Bioware/EA are hiding behind "BECAUSE ART" is the gaming "press" gave them that exuse. If the press or Bioware were interested in artistic integrity, they would fix the ending for the sake of artistic integrity. It is poorly crafted, shows poor storytelling technique, and is not valid.

Modifié par Dreogan, 29 mars 2012 - 10:00 .

[Rickin10]

Yeeeeees, feel the space magic flowing through you.

[Syrin_]

Rickin10 wrote...

Yeeeeees, feel the space magic flowing through you.

YES! I... I CAN FEEL IT. 

[zarnk567]

Rickin10 wrote...

Yeeeeees, feel the space magic flowing through you.

OH GOD IM GLOWING GREEN. 

Modifié par zarnk567, 29 mars 2012 - 10:07 .

[Torrible]

BioReaperEA wrote...

The one thing about all this is how EA/Bioware hides behind the whole "This is ART" as a reason why they shouldn't craft their product to what the fans/customers want or at least suggest. When I build an industrial hose or weld together some item, I can call it a work of art. But, if the customer doesn't like it or calls it crap and doesn't work for them... I FIX IT BECAUSE THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT!

If I turned out stuff that's crap, I'm out of business. I don't really give a flying *&@% about the art of it, I want to make the customer happy. If Bioware wants to tick us off and lie about the whole "your decisions have a major impact in the game" then I I'll take my business elsewhere. Da vinci never turned around to an audiance and said to John Q public...Hey, come up here and paint whatever you want in these spots on the mona lisa because it's "YOUR" mona lisa.

Movie makers test screen their movies before release and fix them if needed. Automobile manufactuers, and others, test market their new cars before mass production and fix them if needed. These things are works of art too.

What if half the customers want one thing and the other half another thing?  All paid money, so who's right? Artists, writers or movie producers change what they deem is necessary to protect their bottomline. There is no legal obligation for them to change anything to appease the consumer.

In this case, you can argue that maybe it is a good thing (for both parties) for Bioware to rewrite the ending. What you can't argue for is that they MUST change it or the consumer is ENTITLED to a rewrite. False advertising also doesn't come into it. Your past decisions do matter in this game. There are literally 16 different endings. Sure, they have been economical with the truth with regards to the ending but try telling the courts that this constitutes false advertising. The fact that the fan who complained to the Feds was laughed at on every gaming forum that I've been to says it all.

Again, just because you paid money doesn't give you the right to demand a new ending be tailored to suit your individual interests. There are many others who do not have a problem with the ending or have a different interpretation of what constitutes a good ending.

[Estelindis]

That was a very interesting, well-written post, Taritu. I know it's given me plenty of food for thought.

[BioReaperEA]

Dreogan wrote...

[The whole reason Bioware/EA are hiding behind "BECAUSE ART" is the gaming "press" gave them that exuse. If the press or Bioware were interested in artistic integrity, they would fix the ending for the sake of artistic integrity. It is poorly crafted, shows poor storytelling technique, and is not valid.

That's true Dreogan, but remember that some people think a cross in a jar of pee or a single marble sitting on a paper plate is amazing art work. Artistic integrity is subjective, but a dissatisfied customer backlash is bankrupting if left unfixed. 

By the way, I fully agree that they poorly constructed the story. I guess they wanted to see if ME1 would take off financially and if it did they could "really" write the story then.

[Taritu]

The customer really isn't always right. If in fact it's a great ending which picks up a new group of customers and costs less other customers who hate it, then from a business perspective, forget 'em. Bioware has clearly been trying to transition from doing one type of games (classic RPGs) to another type (Action games with good stories). They want a new fanbase, because they think it's a larger fanbase.

The problem is that where they want to go (Action games with stories) requires that people think they tell good stories. So this cuts directly at what seems to be their business strategy.

Now, what I expect some internally are thinking is "if we admit that we screwed up the story, that does more damage than stonewalling and besides, story is our core competency, so we didn't!"

But whether they're right or not about the ending being good, and art, they're wrong in this case about stonewalling. If it hadn't been for DA2, they could probably swing it, but because there is already doubt about their storytelling ability (remember, the DA2 story criticisms were mostly about the ending, too) they're treading in dangerous waters.

ME3 showed they could do an action game, the combat is fluid and fun (maybe a little too easy, but eh). But it's now two games in a row where the ending, the storytelling, has been attacked strongly. In both cases the company tried to be artistic and made remarkably similar thematic statements. In both cases it didn't go over well with a chunk of the customers.

I'm sure EA has been running the numbers, but I'd love to see their internal assumptions. From the outside it looks like they may not be calculating them correctly.

I think EA needs, and I mean no disrespect by this, some humility. I took some time to look over the annual statements, and the bottom line is that EA has been losing money for years. They are clearly doing something wrong, and given they've been taking losses for 5 years now, I think EA needs to strongly consider that they don't actually know what the problem is, even if they think they do. Because if they did, there'd be more $ign they were turning the problems around.

(Also, and I definitely could be wrong, I'm not an industry insider at all, the proportion of money being spent on marketing compared to R&D seems too high.)

Modifié par Taritu, 29 mars 2012 - 10:22 .

[DiegoProgMetal]

Cant read through 49 pages, so I'll write this knowing that probably it was writen before: "With great power, comes great responsibilities."

Stay civil. All we can do is wait... And never ever make personnal attacks.
I don't know if what Bioware will do, will be enough to take away the extremely bitter taste of the endings, but, it's their game after all. If I don't feel satisfied, I'll only forget about the ME series and move on. If they do something I enjoy, I'll be more than happy to keep buying their games.

And I've read all the comments from Stanley and John, I really hope the people acting wrong think about what they are doing, and put themselves in Stanley, John, Chris, Jessica, and everyone else from Bioware's shoes. This is not a war. This is about upset fans asking for something they consider better.

Don't act like a**holes just because some magazine said "we are powerful". Please.

[Machazareel]

Dridengx wrote...

Quietness wrote...

Calamity wrote...

Quit responding to them Quiet - its what they want. Just continue the other discussion that is going on.

Not a problem will do, i was just getting confirmation on how they work. I poked and poked and yup seems like it worked. I will leave the silly ones alone ^^

flamebaiting is against the rules consider yourself reported

You're aware you insult people on this board almost every day, right?

[Rodia Driftwood]

POWER TO THE KEYBOARD!.

Lol..

[Dreogan]

BioReaperEA wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

[The whole reason Bioware/EA are hiding behind "BECAUSE ART" is the gaming "press" gave them that exuse. If the press or Bioware were interested in artistic integrity, they would fix the ending for the sake of artistic integrity. It is poorly crafted, shows poor storytelling technique, and is not valid.

That's true Dreogan, but remember that some people think a cross in a jar of pee or a single marble sitting on a paper plate is amazing art work. Artistic integrity is subjective, but a dissatisfied customer backlash is bankrupting if left unfixed. 

By the way, I fully agree that they poorly constructed the story. I guess they wanted to see if ME1 would take off financially and if it did they could "really" write the story then.

Except the three things I listed are not subjective. It's poorly crafted, shows poor storytelling technique, and is not valid as a result when compared to the rest of the work. Thus, in order to claim their entire work is art, they're obligated by their artistic integrity to revise and refine. 

Yes, a jar of pee can be art. A urinal in a fine art museum is art. Both make incredibly deep statements. These are excellent examples of a Dada-ist mindset, of which Mass Effect is not part. Breaking the suspension of disbelief, as they do so thouroughly in the end, destroys the work, destroys the statement. As fiction, a shattered fictional universe cannot be art. It is nothing-- invalid.

Modifié par Dreogan, 29 mars 2012 - 10:28 .

[Torrible]

Taritu wrote...

The customer really isn't always right. If in fact it's a great ending which picks up a new group of customers and costs less other customers who hate it, then from a business perspective, forget 'em. Bioware has clearly been trying to transition from doing one type of games (classic RPGs) to another type (Action games with good stories). They want a new fanbase, because they think it's a larger fanbase.

Well put. This issue should be about what the best decision is, from EA/Bioware's perspective, not some hackneyed rhetoric about consumer rights.

[Jamie9]

Nice to see people can make a difference. Nicer to see proper communication between the devs/mods (you are both, you multi-tasking people you) and the fans. I know we've had talking before but this is the first prolonged conversation I've seen.

I'm hoping we get good news at PAX, then we can all hug it out.

[Wildhide]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

It's the NUMBER ONE facet in the literary world to have a coherent universe and canon from the get go, and have it end in a satisfying and clear manner.

No, it's not.

There are authors like Brandon Sanderson who'll write out 100k world bibles for his works and creates detailed chapter outlines prior to starting a rough draft. There are people like GRRM and Stephen King who both write from the seat of their pants.

It is mildly relevant to this discussion to point out Stephen King doesn't write decent endings, and has admitted to this fact and that he never knows what to do at the end.  And GRRM takes 6 years to release the second half of a book he started 12 years ago.  And it wouldn't surprise if he just doesn't know where he's going.

GRRM is a good writer, sure, but a lot of what he does comes off as random, pointless, and superfluous to the plot.  I think Steve Erikson does a far better job of writing in the same style.  Everyone who acts/dies/whatever does so for a reason, and they always have a purpose that comes back later.  There's no "eh I haven't killed off a main character in a few pages, let's get another" feel to it and that makes his narrative far, far stronger.

[BioReaperEA]

Torrible wrote...

BioReaperEA wrote...

The one thing about all this is how EA/Bioware hides behind the whole "This is ART" as a reason why they shouldn't craft their product to what the fans/customers want or at least suggest. When I build an industrial hose or weld together some item, I can call it a work of art. But, if the customer doesn't like it or calls it crap and doesn't work for them... I FIX IT BECAUSE THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT!

If I turned out stuff that's crap, I'm out of business. I don't really give a flying *&@% about the art of it, I want to make the customer happy. If Bioware wants to tick us off and lie about the whole "your decisions have a major impact in the game" then I I'll take my business elsewhere. Da vinci never turned around to an audiance and said to John Q public...Hey, come up here and paint whatever you want in these spots on the mona lisa because it's "YOUR" mona lisa.

Movie makers test screen their movies before release and fix them if needed. Automobile manufactuers, and others, test market their new cars before mass production and fix them if needed. These things are works of art too.

What if half the customers want one thing and the other half another thing?  All paid money, so who's right? Artists, writers or movie producers change what they deem is necessary to protect their bottomline. There is no legal obligation for them to change anything to appease the consumer.

In this case, you can argue that maybe it is a good thing (for both parties) for Bioware to rewrite the ending. What you can't argue for is that they MUST change it or the consumer is ENTITLED to a rewrite. False advertising also doesn't come into it. Your past decisions do matter in this game. There are literally 16 different endings. Sure, they have been economical with the truth with regards to the ending but try telling the courts that this constitutes false advertising. The fact that the fan who complained to the Feds was laughed at on every gaming forum that I've been to says it all.

Again, just because you paid money doesn't give you the right to demand a new ending be tailored to suit your individual interests. There are many others who do not have a problem with the ending or have a different interpretation of what constitutes a good ending.

Did I demand that they change the ending or fix the numerous bugs or patch the various plot holes? NO...What I'm saying is the given the poor quality of Me3 and Dragon age 2, I will not be buying anything else from Bioware given their current direction. If they don't respect the customer then I won't reurn the favor.

I have played it through several times and the only difference with the 3 Dues Ex endings, oops did I say that, is the color of the light. I also played through with all but zaeed and kasumi dead. Every mission without them in it was the same except for minor differences. I killed the rachni queen on noveria, Oh what's this a rachni queen for grunt or that other krogan to deal with. Oh, I blew the collector base apart (or saved it) where nothing bigger than an atom could survive and there is the proto-reaper at cronos station. I could go on, but the only difference is in the total military strength number which can be reached no matter what you did in previous games.

If you like being jerked around and have no b@!!$ to take a stand, then just keep giving away your money for a turd. Say nothing and expect nothing.

[BioReaperEA]

Torrible wrote...

Taritu wrote...

The customer really isn't always right. If in fact it's a great ending which picks up a new group of customers and costs less other customers who hate it, then from a business perspective, forget 'em. Bioware has clearly been trying to transition from doing one type of games (classic RPGs) to another type (Action games with good stories). They want a new fanbase, because they think it's a larger fanbase.

Well put. This issue should be about what the best decision is, from EA/Bioware's perspective, not some hackneyed rhetoric about consumer rights.

You must be part of the 1%...heh, heh.

[Jamie9]

Wildhide wrote..
It is mildly relevant to this discussion to point out Stephen King doesn't write decent endings, and has admitted to this fact and that he never knows what to do at the end.  And GRRM takes 6 years to release the second half of a book he started 12 years ago.  And it wouldn't surprise if he just doesn't know where he's going.

GRRM is a good writer, sure, but a lot of what he does comes off as random, pointless, and superfluous to the plot.  I think Steve Erikson does a far better job of writing in the same style.  Everyone who acts/dies/whatever does so for a reason, and they always have a purpose that comes back later.  There's no "eh I haven't killed off a main character in a few pages, let's get another" feel to it and that makes his narrative far, far stronger.

Before I comment: Self-confessed GRRM fan, so more than a little bias here.

I think Martin perfectly captures the essence of medieval times chaos. Now yes, there's magic and stuff, but it's essentially medieval times. People died often in those times, especially in battles. I find it incredibly refreshing to know that none of the characters have plot armor donned in his books.

Now to compare GRRM to BioWare

I think they both write the same kind of stories. Character-based stories. Yes, all stories have characters, but their stories are all about how characters react to events. They're about getting to know them intimately as people. Often the plot is sidetracked to get to know the characters better.

Unfortunately, I may have to continue this conversation in about 11 years when he's written the ending...

[Kristofer1]

I find it very sad. Extremely sad that the Bioware employees on here are reminding, many people. MANY people, who are ADULTS, to talk civilly. Such as do not insult. Could some of us had chosen better words complaining about the ending? Absolutely. Myself included. I know I said it sucked. Yet how is that constructive. I would like to thank the Bioware employees who unfortunately had to remind us all to talk in a civilized manner.

As for that. I dont strongly hate the ending. I dont understand the inclusion of new plot points in a stories ending. I feel as though many choices I made in the end did not have as great of an impact on the story as I feel I was led to believe. Such as killing the rachni queen. or the council. or keeping or saving the collector base.
As for the inclusion of new plot points, I think this ghostly catalyst character was a really odd choice for a new plot point. His arguments in my opinion seem to be against what Sovereign had said in ME1. All in all I still believe that Bioware has a surprise in store for us in regards to this ending, and has always had a surprise in store for us.
People may say their lack of response hurts them, it may, but I believe it is all designed to do that. I for one am more interested in what comes next, to see why the ending decisions were made, than having little blue children, or building a house on rannoch and things of that nature. I understand the closure argument but I really want know what happens to the ME universe as a whole so I can know where the series is going.
I will also say I liked DA2 more then DA:O.
I do have on major gripe Bioware employees. Why did you run with individual ammo powers? Warp ammo, ok I can understand that as a biotic would be semi class specific. But I personally thought the ammo upgrade system in ME1 was really interesting. Especially since the multiplayer aspect has a similar ammo upgrade system with the equipment selection.
As someone who also disliked removing the futuristic unlimited ammo, I see it now makes sense since Bioware always wanted a multiplayer element. Therefore I will no longer think that a poor decision.

[Wildhide]

Jamie9 wrote...

Before I comment: Self-confessed GRRM fan, so more than a little bias here.

I think Martin perfectly captures the essence of medieval times chaos. Now yes, there's magic and stuff, but it's essentially medieval times. People died often in those times, especially in battles. I find it incredibly refreshing to know that none of the characters have plot armor donned in his books.

Now to compare GRRM to BioWare

I think they both write the same kind of stories. Character-based stories. Yes, all stories have characters, but their stories are all about how characters react to events. They're about getting to know them intimately as people. Often the plot is sidetracked to get to know the characters better.

Unfortunately, I may have to continue this conversation in about 11 years when he's written the ending...

Oh don't get me wrong, I think GRRM is a great writer.  I really enjoy his stories and his style.  But I feel like he doesn't really know where he's going by the third book.  He still writes great characters, but the plot just runs off in a million directions with no cohesive threads sometimes.  Didn't stop me from enjoying it, though.  Because the characters are great, as you said.

I haven't read Dance yet, I decided to not bother until he finishes in 2032 (My estimate based on his writing speed), because at the moment I basically have to reread every book to know what's going on for Dance.

If you like GRRM, I strongly encourage you to check out Steve Erikson's "Malazan Book of the Fallen" series.  Similar setting and style, medieval with magic (But noticably more than GRRM).  It focuses more on the happens of regular people and soldiers than the nobles.

My friend recommended them to me one day when I was commenting on Martin and I really, really enjoyed the series.  He does great characters, makes you get really involved with them, and just like Martin there's no plot armor.  The difference being when Erikson kills a character I feel like there's a reason at the time, and there always is either immediately or later.

Erik actually finished the series last year, it's 10 books.  Check it out.  His friend Isslemont is writing a sidestory series that covers a lot of intentionally unfinished plot holes from the main series right now that are worth checking out after you finish the main series.  So it's up to 14 books total so far with 3 more on the way.