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[Torrible]

BioReaperEA wrote...

Torrible wrote...

BioReaperEA wrote...

The one thing about all this is how EA/Bioware hides behind the whole "This is ART" as a reason why they shouldn't craft their product to what the fans/customers want or at least suggest. When I build an industrial hose or weld together some item, I can call it a work of art. But, if the customer doesn't like it or calls it crap and doesn't work for them... I FIX IT BECAUSE THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT!

If I turned out stuff that's crap, I'm out of business. I don't really give a flying *&@% about the art of it, I want to make the customer happy. If Bioware wants to tick us off and lie about the whole "your decisions have a major impact in the game" then I I'll take my business elsewhere. Da vinci never turned around to an audiance and said to John Q public...Hey, come up here and paint whatever you want in these spots on the mona lisa because it's "YOUR" mona lisa.

Movie makers test screen their movies before release and fix them if needed. Automobile manufactuers, and others, test market their new cars before mass production and fix them if needed. These things are works of art too.

What if half the customers want one thing and the other half another thing?  All paid money, so who's right? Artists, writers or movie producers change what they deem is necessary to protect their bottomline. There is no legal obligation for them to change anything to appease the consumer.

In this case, you can argue that maybe it is a good thing (for both parties) for Bioware to rewrite the ending. What you can't argue for is that they MUST change it or the consumer is ENTITLED to a rewrite. False advertising also doesn't come into it. Your past decisions do matter in this game. There are literally 16 different endings. Sure, they have been economical with the truth with regards to the ending but try telling the courts that this constitutes false advertising. The fact that the fan who complained to the Feds was laughed at on every gaming forum that I've been to says it all.

Again, just because you paid money doesn't give you the right to demand a new ending be tailored to suit your individual interests. There are many others who do not have a problem with the ending or have a different interpretation of what constitutes a good ending.

Did I demand that they change the ending or fix the numerous bugs or patch the various plot holes? NO...What I'm saying is the given the poor quality of Me3 and Dragon age 2, I will not be buying anything else from Bioware given their current direction. If they don't respect the customer then I won't reurn the favor.

I have played it through several times and the only difference with the 3 Dues Ex endings, oops did I say that, is the color of the light. I also played through with all but zaeed and kasumi dead. Every mission without them in it was the same except for minor differences. I killed the rachni queen on noveria, Oh what's this a rachni queen for grunt or that other krogan to deal with. Oh, I blew the collector base apart (or saved it) where nothing bigger than an atom could survive and there is the proto-reaper at cronos station. I could go on, but the only difference is in the total military strength number which can be reached no matter what you did in previous games.

If you like being jerked around and have no b@!!$ to take a stand, then just keep giving away your money for a turd. Say nothing and expect nothing.

I should clarify that much of my post is directed towards people who are making demands. If you are not, then I apologise. However, your claim that 'companies should fix what the customers are unhappy with because they are always right' does suggest that to some degree. I have no problems with the ending. Even if I do, I'd just express my disappointment, while acknowledging that the game is mostly great. I don't see the need to take a stand of any kind.

Modifié par Torrible, 29 mars 2012 - 10:45 .

[Xandurpein]

Torrible wrote...

I should clarify that much of my post is directed towards people who are making demands. If you are not, then I apologise. However, your claim that 'companies should fix what the customers are unhappy with because they are always right' does suggest that to some degree. I have no problems with the ending. Even if I do, I'd just express my disappointment, while acknowledging that the game is mostly great. I don't see the need to take a stand of any kind.

I really hope that Bioware can fix the ending, but I agree that the kind of rage some fans exhibit is a bit over the top. I don't demand a new ending, but I am pleading for one. That said, if they don't fix the ending I am probably done pre-ordering collector's editions of Bioware's games.

[Shepard Wins]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Snakedude4life wrote...

But who asked for this ending? What feedback showed you (or rather the designers) that we wanted "space magic"? or a ending that can be summed as "Red, Green or Blue"? Also, did the feedback show that people who might want to import an ME1 Face would have problems?

I'm sorry. I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they would like to implement in the game. I didn't realize that each and every facet of the game needed to be in response to a fan's request.

If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

(...)

Wow. Just wow. I know this is a post from the beginning of the thread way back, but I feel I have to address this. Mr Woo, pardon me, but what in the name of all that's holy are you talking about? You're basically saying people cannot fathom the endings. Accusing people of "summing up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game as RGB" is just a really polite way of saying "it's not our fault you're too stupid to comprehend our artistic ending".

It's not our fault that the endings are so ill-recieved. It's the fault of the team who created those endings. There is a proverb in my native language (Polish) "Do not turn the cat around by its tail". Do not blame others for what you(BioWare) have done wrong. Well that's exactly what you did here, Mr Woo. And it's insulting. And it really takes a lot of self control for me to keep civil right now, as I have just been insulted. Again. (The first insult was the ending - this is how I feel).

The endings are being summarized as "RGB" because they are exactly that. I've recently found an amazingly well done video that states exactly almost everything that is wrong with the ending. Here it is:  . Now, if you do listen to your fans at BioWare, this is a perfect summary of why over 50 000 people (and that's just the number from the Retake group on facebook) disliked the endings. I do believe you should watch it. Yeah, I know it's almost 40 minutes long. But thanks to that it's really detailed.

I also believe you should watch this  . This is a reaction to the endings of one of the players. It's all polite, no rage there. It was recorded by this player's brother with what seems to be a camera he (the Player) was unaware of. He's just confused and disappointed.

That's what this ending achieves. Confusion and disappointment for thousands of people. These are not singular cases, that's how majority of players reacted to the endings.

I'm posting this, seeing you also post here, Mr Woo, and I do hope you read this. But most of all I hope you see the videos I've linked. They really say it all.

Edited for minor wording mistakes.

Modifié par Shepard Wins, 29 mars 2012 - 02:51 .

[Torrible]

Xandurpein wrote...

Torrible wrote...

I should clarify that much of my post is directed towards people who are making demands. If you are not, then I apologise. However, your claim that 'companies should fix what the customers are unhappy with because they are always right' does suggest that to some degree. I have no problems with the ending. Even if I do, I'd just express my disappointment, while acknowledging that the game is mostly great. I don't see the need to take a stand of any kind.

I really hope that Bioware can fix the ending, but I agree that the kind of rage some fans exhibit is a bit over the top. I don't demand a new ending, but I am pleading for one. That said, if they don't fix the ending I am probably done pre-ordering collector's editions of Bioware's games.

I see your point. To be honest, I'm tired of arguing about this. I'm rather curious about what Bioware is going to do with the ending though.

Modifié par Torrible, 29 mars 2012 - 10:57 .

[AntonioA9011]

Shepard Wins wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Snakedude4life wrote...

But who asked for this ending? What feedback showed you (or rather the designers) that we wanted "space magic"? or a ending that can be summed as "Red, Green or Blue"? Also, did the feedback show that people who might want to import an ME1 Face would have problems?

I'm sorry. I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they would like to implement in the game. I didn't realize that each and every facet of the game needed to be in response to a fan's request.

If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

(...)

Wow. Just wow. I know this is a post from the beginning of the thread way back, but I feel I have to address this. Mr Woo, pardon me, but what in the name of all that's holy are you talking about? You're basically saying people cannot fathom the endings. Accusing people of "summing up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game as RGB" is just a really polite way of saying "it's not our fault you're too stupid to comprehend our artistic ending".

It's not our fault that the endings are so ill-recieved. It's the fault of the team who created those endings. There is a proverb in my native language (Polish) "Do not turn the cat around by its tail". Do not blame others for what you(BioWare) have done wrong. Well that's exactly what you did here, Mr Woo. And it's insulting. And it really takes a lot of self control for me to keep civil right now, as I have just been insulted. Again (the first insult was the ending - this is how I feel).

The endings are being summarized as "RGB" because they are exactly that. I've recently found an amazingly well done video that states exactly almost everything that is wrong with the ending. Here it is:  . Now, if you do listen to your fans at BioWare, this is a perfect summary of why over 50 000 people (and that's just the number from the Retake group on facebook) disliked the endings. I do believe you should watch it.

I also believe you should watch this  . This is a reaction to the endings of of the players. It's all polite, no rage there. It was recorded by this player's brother with what seems to be a camera he (the Player) was unaware of. He's just confused and disappointed.

That's what this ending achieves. Confusion and disappointment for thousands of people. These are not singular cases, that's how majority of players reacted to the endings.

I'm posting this, seeing you also post here, Mr Woo, and I do hope you read this. But most of all I hope you see the videos linked above.

^^^^^^^This

[Dreogan]

Mental note: never, ever make a Polish guy angry.

Modifié par Dreogan, 29 mars 2012 - 10:57 .

[BioReaperEA]

Sorry if I was a little rude in defense of my opinions Torrible. It's just that I have been heavily invested in this series from the begining as are my friends. In our opinion we just feel betrayed in a way. The ending is right from dues ex. I can over look the "homages" from other sci-fi sources, but to copy the almost exact ending from another game and the photoshoped big reveal tali picture didn't help either.

[Estelindis]

Shepard Wins wrote...

I also believe you should watch this  . This is a reaction to the endings of of the players. It's all polite, no rage there. It was recorded by this player's brother with what seems to be a camera he (the Player) was unaware of. He's just confused and disappointed.

That's exactly how I felt when I finished the game.  Watching him go through it too was just awful.  I don't know whether to feel better that I'm not alone in feeling this way or worse that someone else had to go through the same thing!

It's like the ending just calmly took all the emotion I'd invested in the series and drained the life out of it, robbing it of joy and significance.  All that was left was a husk.

Sorry for being dramatic; it's just how I felt, hollow.

[Evil_medved]

We need moar power.

[Estelindis]

Xandurpein wrote...
 I don't demand a new ending, but I am pleading for one. That said, if they don't fix the ending I am probably done pre-ordering collector's editions of Bioware's games. 

This is how I feel as well.  I don't angrily demand a change, but I beg for one, because it's such a shame to leave the franchise wounded like this when it could be healed.  I can only vote with my wallet if it doesn't happen, so in my case you can remove the "probably"; definitely no more collector's edition pre-orders for me.  I'm honestly hung up on whether I'll buy any more Bioware games if this one is left unhealed, and I've bought everything they've made since Baldur's Gate.  The idea of not being able to look forward to buying a new Bioware release is like losing a little piece of my heart.  But it's genuinely not my choice.  I'm not a masochist, so I cannot look forward to another game that would make me feel this way.

The only thing is that I don't want to tarnish all Bioware teams with the same brush.  But, on the other hand, the fight-both-sides-regardless-of-what-you-chose ending of DA2 was one of my least favourite aspects of the other team's work as well.  Heaven's above, it was no ME3 ending though!

[Torrible]

BioReaperEA wrote...

Sorry if I was a little rude in defense of my opinions Torrible. It's just that I have been heavily invested in this series from the begining as are my friends. In our opinion we just feel betrayed in a way. The ending is right from dues ex. I can over look the "homages" from other sci-fi sources, but to copy the almost exact ending from another game and the photoshoped big reveal tali picture didn't help either.

Hey no worries. Imo, discussion in this thread has been rather civil so far.

[spiriticon]

When an ending is designed with the line "Lots of speculation for everyone" as the last train of thought, you'd expect a ****storm and fans freaking out surely. How that was ever placed as a good idea I'll never know.

A little speculation is good to keep some ideas open. LOTS of speculation is bad because there is no closure to anything.

Modifié par spiriticon, 29 mars 2012 - 11:18 .

[FlameAble_]

So even Kotaku can no longer wave us off as a few angry nerds. Good times

[BioReaperEA]

I think this best sums it up for me.

[GerojSvK]

YEAH

[Test Subject 58]

You know the irony of all this, if EA didn't go mass appeal on ME2/3, the core fans since ME1 wouldn't have made that much noise, not enough for the world to notice us. Fortunately COD fanboys hate the ending, that is what you get for pleasing COD crowd EA.

[Neuthung]

Test Subject 58 wrote...

You know the irony of all this, if EA didn't go mass appeal on ME2/3, the core fans since ME1 wouldn't have made that much noise, not enough for the world to notice us. Fortunately COD fanboys hate the ending, that is what you get for pleasing COD crowd EA.

Bullocks. Been here from the start, hate CoD, hated the ending. 

[Delaney]

Of course we have power! We're holding the f***ing line! We're holding ME! ME is still alive because of the determination of each member here on the BSN who still has hope for Bioware remaining Bioware!

So you know what? GOOD JOB so far!

Keep on holding!

[GreyLycanTrope]

i like the blood type N7 bit

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Stanley Woo wrote...
I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. 

We dont want discussions and theories. 

We want the answers and the closure we were promised.

Also Mr. Woo, if you went to a resturant which advertised 16 unique and different meals on the dinner menu. How would YOU feel... if you found out all the 16 dishes were meatballs, but with different salads. Would you feel cheated?

That said, I still have faith in you guys. Bioware has always delivered, and I will give you guys the benefit of the doubt as long as I can. Hoping April will bring us some answers.

[weltraumhamster89]

KingNothing125 wrote...

"vocal minority" was wrong right from the start. Anyone paying any attention whatsoever would know that hate for the ending is nearly universal.

They tried being avant garde and clever with the ending, and they botched it bad. I would hope they just do a simple "mea culpa" and release a more sensible ending. I would have no hard feelings.

agreed.

[Jamie9]

Wildhide wrote...

I haven't read Dance yet, I decided to not bother until he finishes in 2032 (My estimate based on his writing speed), because at the moment I basically have to reread every book to know what's going on for Dance.

If you like GRRM, I strongly encourage you to check out Steve Erikson's "Malazan Book of the Fallen" series.  Similar setting and style, medieval with magic (But noticably more than GRRM).  It focuses more on the happens of regular people and soldiers than the nobles.

My friend recommended them to me one day when I was commenting on Martin and I really, really enjoyed the series.  He does great characters, makes you get really involved with them, and just like Martin there's no plot armor.  The difference being when Erikson kills a character I feel like there's a reason at the time, and there always is either immediately or later.

Erik actually finished the series last year, it's 10 books.  Check it out.  His friend Isslemont is writing a sidestory series that covers a lot of intentionally unfinished plot holes from the main series right now that are worth checking out after you finish the main series.  So it's up to 14 books total so far with 3 more on the way.

Yeah, he does take a crazy amount of time writing them. I find it doubly odd that they started the recent "Game of Thrones" TV series considering they aren't all written. Seems like the show will have to go on an extended hiatus (for years) while he writes the last two books.
I've heard of Erikson's series, but never really investigated it. Similar to GRRM but BETTER you say?

I'll be sure to at least read the first one, and will likely be sucked in by then if they are as you say. Thanks. I like a good novel series - though it is true that most authors lose track of their story and their characters by the end of it.

[Estelindis]

Personally I wouldn't have minded if the Malazan Book of the Fallen had ended after book eight. The issues that were resolved in the last two books were, for the most part, not the issues I most wanted to be resolved. But that's just my two cents and it doesn't take away from the great experience along the way (I found the Malazan ending only somewhat lacklustre compared to Mass Effect 3). The second book is particularly good. It made me cry quite a lot.

Modifié par Estelindis, 29 mars 2012 - 12:11 .

[ZtalkerRM]

John Epler wrote...

withneelandi wrote...

John Epler wrote...

I don't think name calling and personal attacks help anyone's case, regardless of who they are and who they're referring to. That's as much of a statement as you'll get from me on any articles related to any of this, sorry. It's not really my place - I'm not on the ME team. Now, if you want my opinion on DA related stuff... well, I can't say much there, either. Whoops.

You literally had me going for a second.......

I was about to ask you to comment on the comedy "mass effect is the same universe as dragon age" theory.

I'm telling you, Corpheus was the trapped spirit of a Reaper and that thing they reffered to under Val Royeux is a crashed long burried Reaper.







(I'm kidding, please don't think i'm a looney)

I continue to argue for an easter egg in a DA game where you come across a 'mysterious broken machine' that's actually the remains of one of the probes from ME2. Scanning a populated planet always made me envision an Armageddon-type scenario where death rained down from the sky while Shepard calmly watched his resource bar.

That would be epic!
They did something similar for a Star Wars comic where Han Solo would crash land on earth.
Chewbacca became the infamous ´Bigfoot´ and Indiana Jones found the wreckage of the Falcon which he described as ´strangely familiar´ or something like that.
Was quite the read and very funny!

You could always have Ohgren say stupid things while drunk..
"What if all women were...BLUE...and could only give birth to other...women! HEAVEN" *passes out because of alcohol*

[Budjik]

I don't think that any personal or other attacks on Bioware are in place. They did fantastic job most of the time. Really only thing, that was a letdown is the ending, but I think we all know it now and there will be changes. As for me, I want to thank Bioware for they effort so far and want to assure them, that I believe, they will eventually bring us the ending, that would satisfy us.