1334 réponses à ce sujet

[Trishot]

Mr. Woo,

A question, if I may. Now, I have heard you say you had to romance everyone and experience their conversations. That is, first of all an awesome job. I did the same, but I did it in my spare time because I love the universe you created. However, and here comes the actual question, is it safe for me to assume you approached this as a job? I as a fan approached it whilst *playing for pleasure*
Having said that, is it not at least arguable that I have a different emotional attachment to these characters? Where you (and I am operating on an assumption here, so correct me if I am wrong) approach the same characters more as like part of the job? I am not saying you do not/cannot have an emotional attachment to said characters, however you approach them much differently than any fan.

[Ziggeh]

 Jesus.

We're better than "powerful", we're right.

This is the problem with the presedent argument. No, we really do not want people changing things purely due to popular demand because the populus cannot be trusted with creativity. But if it's broken, and they concede that's the case then we call it correction, patching. 

[SimonTheFrog]

sorry, my first post was too silly.

Edit:

I agree with the defunct product argument. Bioware delivered a broken ending that violated both their own promises or pre-release PR and also common sense.

And no matter how you stress it's ambiguity, it always remains broken and non-sensical. And there's no ambiguity about that: there is not a single person who can explain that ending. Can you?

We just demand that they fix the broken part of the product. Like any customer would do.

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 29 mars 2012 - 01:10 .

[SilencedScream]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Danilo Luis wrote...

There's a huge difference between *listen* and give it the proper attention.

If you aren't willing to accept a response that disagrees with you, or aren't wililng to wait for an answer, or you insist that all of your issues must be resolved when you want them to be, then you're no longer making simple requests and giving feedback, are you? At that point, I would say you're making demands because you feel entitled to them, and we treat those very differently than we treat requests. Which is why we encourage people to be civil and patient and reasonable in their posts.

My only answer to this is that we're consumers. We're looking for value. If we're not going to find value personally in a product, then we want to get rid of the item ASAP before its monetary value dwindles even further. Basically, I think a lot people (at least, console gamers) want an idea of what "clarify" means, in regards to the ending, before GameStop's $30 trade-in deal ends.

If the game, to them, is going to be in a state that it's worth playing through again, they'll likely hold on to it and even buy future DLC.

Just like developers look to make profit, we look to feel like we've made a purchase worth the money.

There's a fine line where the developers' (the business) wishes for the game must meet the gamers' (the consumers) wishes for the game - otherwise there's no longer going to be enough income to keep the business on its feet.

[die-yng]

Torrible wrote...

BioReaperEA wrote...

The one thing about all this is how EA/Bioware hides behind the whole "This is ART" as a reason why they shouldn't craft their product to what the fans/customers want or at least suggest. When I build an industrial hose or weld together some item, I can call it a work of art. But, if the customer doesn't like it or calls it crap and doesn't work for them... I FIX IT BECAUSE THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT!

If I turned out stuff that's crap, I'm out of business. I don't really give a flying *&@% about the art of it, I want to make the customer happy. If Bioware wants to tick us off and lie about the whole "your decisions have a major impact in the game" then I I'll take my business elsewhere. Da vinci never turned around to an audiance and said to John Q public...Hey, come up here and paint whatever you want in these spots on the mona lisa because it's "YOUR" mona lisa.

Movie makers test screen their movies before release and fix them if needed. Automobile manufactuers, and others, test market their new cars before mass production and fix them if needed. These things are works of art too.

What if half the customers want one thing and the other half another thing?  All paid money, so who's right? Artists, writers or movie producers change what they deem is necessary to protect their bottomline. There is no legal obligation for them to change anything to appease the consumer.

In this case, you can argue that maybe it is a good thing (for both parties) for Bioware to rewrite the ending. What you can't argue for is that they MUST change it or the consumer is ENTITLED to a rewrite. False advertising also doesn't come into it. Your past decisions do matter in this game. There are literally 16 different endings. Sure, they have been economical with the truth with regards to the ending but try telling the courts that this constitutes false advertising. The fact that the fan who complained to the Feds was laughed at on every gaming forum that I've been to says it all.

Again, just because you paid money doesn't give you the right to demand a new ending be tailored to suit your individual interests. There are many others who do not have a problem with the ending or have a different interpretation of what constitutes a good ending.

Sorry, but to be honest seeing how small the group of people in favour of the ending  is here on  the board and everywhere else on the internet ( and I mean people who have actually played the game and are not only speaking about the matter in general), I don't know if using the word many is really justified.

I know the Retake haters try to make it seem as if they are fighting for this huge anonymous majority who just friggin' loves the ending, but that's just not the case.

[SimonTheFrog]

SilencedScream wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Danilo Luis wrote...

There's a huge difference between *listen* and give it the proper attention.

If you aren't willing to accept a response that disagrees with you, or aren't wililng to wait for an answer, or you insist that all of your issues must be resolved when you want them to be, then you're no longer making simple requests and giving feedback, are you? At that point, I would say you're making demands because you feel entitled to them, and we treat those very differently than we treat requests. Which is why we encourage people to be civil and patient and reasonable in their posts.

My only answer to this is that we're consumers. We're looking for value. If we're not going to find value personally in a product, then we want to get rid of the item ASAP before its monetary value dwindles even further. Basically, I think a lot people (at least, console gamers) want an idea of what "clarify" means, in regards to the ending, before GameStop's $30 trade-in deal ends.

If the game, to them, is going to be in a state that it's worth playing through again, they'll likely hold on to it and even buy future DLC.

Just like developers look to make profit, we look to feel like we've made a purchase worth the money.

There's a fine line where the developers' (the business) wishes for the game must meet the gamers' (the consumers) wishes for the game - otherwise there's no longer going to be enough income to keep the business on its feet.

One thing that rubs me the wrong way is when people (Mr. Woo in that case) suggest, that we demand a certain ending. We don't!
But we DEMAND that the game delivers what has been promised officially by bioware itself!

And no, we don't suggest that politely, we DEMAND it. We bought the game because it was supposed to have certain features, especially concerning the ending.

Now, that the features are the opposite of what was promised bioware has to fix that, simple as that.

If you sell a broken product or one that has missing features, you don't expect the customer to "make suggestions". You apologize and fix the darn mess.

[daboy042188]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Exeider wrote...

hell, no, i reject that on principle alone, why should he get paid to do something WE did for ourselves.

I want him to go through the exact same course that we did. To pay him would negate the whole purpose of the experiment, because he would be doing for a pay check, not to see how it feels.

-AE

In that case, my counter-offer would be for you to ship an award-winning AAA game trilogy and moderate their online community so you can "go through the exact same course that we did." I mean, without going through that, how we trust any argument you make? how you have any basis by which to make any argument?

Personally, I think it's possible to "walk a mile in someone else's shoes" without physically putting on their shoes and walking an actual mile. We can imagine and simulate much of it based on prior experience and our freedom of expression.

well if y'all can give me a team and some resources i'd be glad to ship an award winning AAA game trilogy. (well maybe not the trilogy but seriously, i've got some ideas)

[Hajilestone]

JeosDinas wrote...

WhooMovingTarget wrote...Its a improvement over the whole vocal minority stuff they were throwing out a few weeks ago.
I take my happy endings where I can get em man. :happy:

Just to illustrate the point. Say that there's a group of 100,000 people. Say that, I don't know, 20,000 of them all want chocolate ice cream. Even though more people want vanilla or whatever, that's still a lot of people and a lot of ice cream.

Jeeze dude, whats with all the negative comments? Everyone else is happy so why try to spoil that?

[die-yng]

Reading through a lot of this thread and especially the posts by Stanley Woo and the response to it, made me kind of sad.

I know I've been angry or at least aggravated a lot of the times I came here, since I finished the game, at times that may have shown too much in my posts, but I do think a lot of people should step on the brakes.

You are angry about the endings, about the way BW deals with your anger, all of this is understandable. But the hate and the vitriol and rage, is this really neccessary?

Or more important will it lead to anything?
I've worked in customer relations of the real unpleasant kind for quite some time and believe me, sometimes it hurts, despite you being a professional and all.
Most of the time the people you vent your anger at, have absolutely nothing to do with what makes you angry and from my own experience, if you complain calm and clearly, logical and friendly you have far more chances that your complaint will be dealt with or even aknowledged.

I don't want the relationship between my favourite developer and their fans to be like this, I would love to just trust in BW as I've done in the past.
I bet a lot of people feel the same way, under all their anger and pain, that's why it would be so important that BW made a statement that deals with the matter out right and open, no hidden insults, no downtalking or belittling of the disgruntled fans.

I understand Bioware wants to wait until PAX, but clearly it is very difficult for us to wait until then, when so far we've only got very half hearted responses.

[dgumb]

I haven't read the whole thread (tl;dr and all that) but I've looked through the Bioware posts. For better or worse I just want to say that I'm impressed with how much Stanley Woo and John Epler have engaged in this thead.

Not everyone on the boards has always been civil (though in my opinion most have) but I wanted to say "thanks" to the Bioware guys that have shown they're listening (rather than just saying so) even in the face of all the angst surrounding the ending.

I don't mean this ironically, Stanley and John: Thanks for all your feedback.

[Hajilestone]

die-yng wrote...

Reading through a lot of this thread and especially the posts by Stanley Woo and the response to it, made me kind of sad.

I know I've been angry or at least aggravated a lot of the times I came here, since I finished the game, at times that may have shown too much in my posts, but I do think a lot of people should step on the brakes.

You are angry about the endings, about the way BW deals with your anger, all of this is understandable. But the hate and the vitriol and rage, is this really neccessary?

Or more important will it lead to anything?
I've worked in customer relations of the real unpleasant kind for quite some time and believe me, sometimes it hurts, despite you being a professional and all.
Most of the time the people you vent your anger at, have absolutely nothing to do with what makes you angry and from my own experience, if you complain calm and clearly, logical and friendly you have far more chances that your complaint will be dealt with or even aknowledged.

I don't want the relationship between my favourite developer and their fans to be like this, I would love to just trust in BW as I've done in the past.
I bet a lot of people feel the same way, under all their anger and pain, that's why it would be so important that BW made a statement that deals with the matter out right and open, no hidden insults, no downtalking or belittling of the disgruntled fans.

I understand Bioware wants to wait until PAX, but clearly it is very difficult for us to wait until then, when so far we've only got very half hearted responses.

This sums up my feelings exactly. I want to trust Bioware and I want them to give us a straight answer, but because they have yet to do either I'm kind of angry.

[SilencedScream]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

One thing that rubs me the wrong way is when people (Mr. Woo in that case) suggest, that we demand a certain ending. We don't!
But we DEMAND that the game delivers what has been promised officially by bioware itself!

And no, we don't suggest that politely, we DEMAND it. We bought the game because it was supposed to have certain features, especially concerning the ending.

Now, that the features are the opposite of what was promised bioware has to fix that, simple as that.

If you sell a broken product or one that has missing features, you don't expect the customer to "make suggestions". You apologize and fix the darn mess.

Actually, yeah - he can't deny that there's some issue between what was promised and what was delivered.
I don't have the game for PC, but I've read from multiple people that Origins was giving refunds for the game.

[Mixon]

Hole the Line till the end.

[ZombieJohn84]

KingKhan03 wrote...

More power to us

-Hold That goddamn line.

[dfstone]

I think yall have been played. Bioware planned this the whole time, imo.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Budjik wrote...

I don't think that any personal or other attacks on Bioware are in place. They did fantastic job most of the time. Really only thing, that was a letdown is the ending, but I think we all know it now and there will be changes. As for me, I want to thank Bioware for they effort so far and want to assure them, that I believe, they will eventually bring us the ending, that would satisfy us.

Agreed. Mass effect 3 is a masterpiece. The ending is not.

Its like Bioware painted the Mona Lisa and then took a knife and removed the eyes. It can be repaired, but Bioware need to show the humility and man up and admit they made a mistake. Its easily fixable... 

Like Todd Howard said, they arent ashamed to admit they did a mistake.

[BadgerladDK]

John Epler wrote...

withneelandi wrote...

John Epler wrote...

I don't think name calling and personal attacks help anyone's case, regardless of who they are and who they're referring to. That's as much of a statement as you'll get from me on any articles related to any of this, sorry. It's not really my place - I'm not on the ME team. Now, if you want my opinion on DA related stuff... well, I can't say much there, either. Whoops.

You literally had me going for a second.......

I was about to ask you to comment on the comedy "mass effect is the same universe as dragon age" theory.

I'm telling you, Corpheus was the trapped spirit of a Reaper and that thing they reffered to under Val Royeux is a crashed long burried Reaper.







(I'm kidding, please don't think i'm a looney)

I continue to argue for an easter egg in a DA game where you come across a 'mysterious broken machine' that's actually the remains of one of the probes from ME2. Scanning a populated planet always made me envision an Armageddon-type scenario where death rained down from the sky while Shepard calmly watched his resource bar.

That reminds me (and it's entirely possible this may not have happened at all, DA:O has been a while for me), but wasn't there a note you could find somewhere in the deep roads about the Effect of an object's Mass on a bridge of poor build quality?  I seem to recall being greatly amused by it, as I'd already played ME 1 by the time I got around to DA:O (kinda spontaniously picked it up from Games on Demand on xbox because I was bored and it had a Bioware logo, I normally don't "do" fantasy)

[InsaneAzrael]

TeaKae421 wrote...

Gamers ought to have their influence felt, we are the sole reason this industry exists, we pay our money to play these games, we ought to have power. If there is one group you don't want to mess around with, it's serious gamers, who devote their time and money, expecting a game will be worth it.

If it turns out gamers were deceived or letdown horribly, we simply stop buying games from companies that decide to do that, either they'll learn or go bust.

But then, I dream.

[FataliTensei]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Budjik wrote...

I don't think that any personal or other attacks on Bioware are in place. They did fantastic job most of the time. Really only thing, that was a letdown is the ending, but I think we all know it now and there will be changes. As for me, I want to thank Bioware for they effort so far and want to assure them, that I believe, they will eventually bring us the ending, that would satisfy us.

Agreed. Mass effect 3 is a masterpiece. The ending is not.

Its like Bioware painted the Mona Lisa and then took a knife and removed the eyes. It can be repaired, but Bioware need to show the humility and man up and admit they made a mistake. Its easily fixable... 

Like Todd Howard said, they arent ashamed to admit they did a mistake.

Actually the whole game was a let-down. They promised alot to happen during the game reflecting our choices and not just the ending, that did not happen. Add to the huge amount of Auto-dailogue, MP effecting SP, barely any convo choices, the pg-13 romances and the complete imbalance on guns in the game and you have a product that is still good, but nowhere near a "Masterpiece" or anything like what we were promised.

[dfstone]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Budjik wrote...

I don't think that any personal or other attacks on Bioware are in place. They did fantastic job most of the time. Really only thing, that was a letdown is the ending, but I think we all know it now and there will be changes. As for me, I want to thank Bioware for they effort so far and want to assure them, that I believe, they will eventually bring us the ending, that would satisfy us.

Agreed. Mass effect 3 is a masterpiece. The ending is not.

Its like Bioware painted the Mona Lisa and then took a knife and removed the eyes. It can be repaired, but Bioware need to show the humility and man up and admit they made a mistake. Its easily fixable... 

Like Todd Howard said, they arent ashamed to admit they did a mistake.

They didn't make a mistake.  They purposely left the ending vague with the intent of filling the holes later with DLC. 

[Wildhide]

Jamie9 wrote...

Wildhide wrote...

I haven't read Dance yet, I decided to not bother until he finishes in 2032 (My estimate based on his writing speed), because at the moment I basically have to reread every book to know what's going on for Dance.

If you like GRRM, I strongly encourage you to check out Steve Erikson's "Malazan Book of the Fallen" series.  Similar setting and style, medieval with magic (But noticably more than GRRM).  It focuses more on the happens of regular people and soldiers than the nobles.

My friend recommended them to me one day when I was commenting on Martin and I really, really enjoyed the series.  He does great characters, makes you get really involved with them, and just like Martin there's no plot armor.  The difference being when Erikson kills a character I feel like there's a reason at the time, and there always is either immediately or later.

Erik actually finished the series last year, it's 10 books.  Check it out.  His friend Isslemont is writing a sidestory series that covers a lot of intentionally unfinished plot holes from the main series right now that are worth checking out after you finish the main series.  So it's up to 14 books total so far with 3 more on the way.

Yeah, he does take a crazy amount of time writing them. I find it doubly odd that they started the recent "Game of Thrones" TV series considering they aren't all written. Seems like the show will have to go on an extended hiatus (for years) while he writes the last two books.
I've heard of Erikson's series, but never really investigated it. Similar to GRRM but BETTER you say?

I'll be sure to at least read the first one, and will likely be sucked in by then if they are as you say. Thanks. I like a good novel series - though it is true that most authors lose track of their story and their characters by the end of it.

I like him more than Martin personally, but they're at least on par.  I'd the second book is probably my favorite, but prepare to be depressed.  If you want to see a well written, powerful story that has a lot of darker tones then book 2 is it.  And book 3 is where you really see that no one gets plot armor.

[EricHVela]

ME3 did many things very well IMHO. It is sad that the impact of the ending overshadows the rest.

Does that make the ending a great finale?

Getting hit by a hammer makes an impact. So, no. An ending that causes such a stir doesn't mean it's a great one.

It's how it impacts the story that determines if it's great.

I was left with a feeling that the story was broken after the end, like someone took a hammer, smashed the lore, pushed everyone out the door and slammed it on them.

Sure. It ended the series, but nuking the Bikini atoll with an experimental H-bomb was an end to that as well, leaving it and the surrounding areas toxic for a very long time. The series was taken from us, leaving us with nothing, and from what I've read, it seems like it was done for the sake of an artistic experiment.

It made an impact. It made a bad one.

[Arokel]

Tim Cook is above us.

This bugs me.

I can't really tell you why.

[BoneNinja]

mokponobi wrote...

Thanks Mr Woo, for engaging the fans in a discussion for a bit. I appreciate hearing from you guys even if I disagree with what is said.

Hopefully, you can pick out the posts that are polite and respectful and continue to be patient with the hot heads.

Cheers.

Amen!

Just want to add my own appreciation for Bioware, including you Mr. Woo and Mr. Epler. I'm immensly grateful to you and the other Bioware employees that actually take part in the forums and I'm usually left in awe of what you all have to tolerate. You all are certainly better people than I. I also hope you have a great support structure or room to take your frustrations out in .

[Ravax]

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