1334 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Asriel]

Hold the Line and Never Forget!!

[jonal11]

We are the 99%.

Hold The Line!

[afarkas1]

I dislike to the tenor of this discussion. I hope they fix this in such a way that people around here don't thump their chests and declare bioware defeated. There has to be a way to make it right where it seems like everyone won. The ending needs to be changed to do the story and fans justice. But it is still a request and not a demand.

If I walk away from this company, it will not be out of anger and a desire to harm. It will be because I think that they have left me behind for a new target audience. Or because I feel like they are in the business of selling an ending separately from the rest of a game.

But what I really would like is to just be able to throw money at them trustingly and without question again.

[txmn1016]

afarkas1 wrote...

I dislike to the tenor of this discussion. I hope they fix this in such a way that people around here don't thump their chests and declare bioware defeated. There has to be a way to make it right where it seems like everyone won. The ending needs to be changed to do the story and fans justice. But it is still a request and not a demand.

If I walk away from this company, it will not be out of anger and a desire to harm. It will be because I think that they have left me behind for a new target audience. Or because I feel like they are in the business of selling an ending separately from the rest of a game.

But what I really would like is to just be able to throw money at them trustingly and without question again.

It will be the same for me.  This is actually what I'm most afraid of, and what I'm sure a lot of others are afraid of too. 

[Jamie9]

Wildhide wrote...
I like him more than Martin personally, but they're at least on par.  I'd the second book is probably my favorite, but prepare to be depressed.  If you want to see a well written, powerful story that has a lot of darker tones then book 2 is it.  And book 3 is where you really see that no one gets plot armor.

Sorry I'm taking so long to reply. Been to the hospital and that...

'Prepare to be depressed...' Going to once again attempt to relate this to Mass Effect 3. (So much off-topic goodness in BSN atm)

I believe a character death (at least a fairly main character) should always serve a purpose. It can cause you to hate the perpetrators, thus generating an emotional response towards a fictional enemy. It can cause you to feel sad, just as that character's friends and family likely feel.

Or it can be bittersweet, where the character dies but you can take solace that their death has helped others be happy.

I like the indoctrination theory, but am not a believer. I believe that BioWare truly thought it would have this 'bittersweet' impact - Shepard sacrificing himself to save the Galaxy (apart from best Destroy).

They just didn't consider the lore, or if they did, did a very poor job of representing what they meant. I don't understand because they did 3 'bittersweet' deaths very very well IMO.

Mordin - sacrificing himself for all Krogan
Legion - sacrificing himself for all Geth
Thane - sacrificing himself for the Council and Shepard

Obviously not everyone got these,  but it seems to be that the majority did.

I wonder if the disconnect is truly because of the lore discrepencies, or the fact that it is difficult to feel emotionally connected to a GALAXY. It's too big to humanise. The Krogan = Wrex, Grunt, Eve. The Geth = Legion, those cute Primes from that mission. The Council = Come on, we all love that Turian guy really!

Also, ordered the first 3 books so hopefully I'll be able to pry myself away from the BSN and read them!

[Beernun]

John Epler wrote...

Honestly, I don't think it's possible for anyone who's worked on the franchise extensively to approach the games in the same way as a fan who's been here since the beginning. By our very experiences we are already looking at things from a different perspective than you - while you romanced one or two people over your ME2 playthroughs, I've romanced all of 'em. Multiple times. My job, for six and a half months, was to scour the conversations on the Normandy and make sure to document any kind of weird cinematic design bugs that I could find.

I've already seen how sausage is made. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a hot dog from time to time, but even if I still love them, I'm looking at them in a different way than you are. It's not something I can really do much about - I can't just forget the six and a half months I spent checking every possible permutation and variation of every possible dialogue that would fire on the ship. That's not to say that there aren't some people who can approach the games without their experience being coloured in such a fashion, but I don't think either Stan or myself are that person.

This is absolutely true. I'm not in Game development,  I work in Visual Effects and I have a completely different view of the projects that I've worked on compared to nearly any other audience member. I can't tell you of how many times i've watched one of the pieces that I've done and all I see are anything that I couldn't fix due to time, budget or client requests, where as most people wouldn't even be able to tell that nearly the entire scene was created and composited in the computer. I can't enjoy a lot of movies and shows because I know how they're made or I've been in on the production of them. Besides, you couldn't imagine how many things get missed. 


Several years ago, i was working on a project where I didn't remove a wire that was moving an object in the scene. Completely basic stuff, but I didn't see it, my VFX lead didn't see it, the Director & Art Director didn't see it, the client didn't see it and no one else on the team saw it; until 4 years later. Three of the guys from the team plus myself all noticed it at the same time. It was so blatant, yet during production, no one saw it. Now all I can see in that scene is this glistening fishing-line on a black background stretched across the center of the screen, while I say to myself… " How did I miss that?"


Production is production… Mistakes happen and things get overlooked no matter how many levels of QA you have in place.  The advantage that game developers have over my industry is the ability to fix them. 

[xeNNN]

HKR148 wrote...

...Sounds more like being snide and sarcastic.

agreed, i dont trust them. 

especially after all the insults they've thrown at us in the past few articles. 

[Njald]

Opsrbest wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Diablos2525 wrote...


I completely understand, and this is how I feel as well. That being said, I don't think that's the REAL WORLD, the kind of world we operate in, where everybody owns up to their mistakes and makes nice afterwards. Instead of IGN attacking us, they would probably attack Bioware for caving in to their fans. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]

The thing I don't understand is if BioWare works with those of us who hate the ending... nobody loses.

Those who like the current endings can keep them, the rest of us who don't can get the ones that we feel actually maintain the narrative. Everybody wins.

I lose. I lose subjectivity of the story that I have been presented with irregardless of how or why or what is changed through secondary modality.

Why should I be faced with the option of either purchasing or dling, or being forced into a patch with "clarification" or any aspect of anything because there is a portion of the playerbase that is irrate over an ending?

You should be faced with that because your money will in the long run be less worth than our money to Bioware. If they wanted consumers for whom the current ending was satsifying they wouldn't have built the IP with the love and care they did. (I asume, maybe they just accidentally managed to please discerning fans). 
You don't have to endure anything. If you are satsified then move on. Spend your money on other DLC and be happy. 
But don't expect much more quality out of Bioware if they don't have enough people to sell it to. And clearly, you are in a minority even accounting for the most extreme selection bias in all polls, in all reactions, in all word of mouth.

[Njald]

Blackmind1 wrote...

camcon2100 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

But you cannot argue that they make any sense.

Of course you can. Easily. I have, others have, and yes, they have withstood scrutiny from you and everyone else.

Enlighten us if you will!

Nothing that any pro-ender could say would ever get through to a Retaker. Each of us have already made up our minds, so to argue our points would be futile.

That seem do go double the other way.

[jeweledleah]

txmn1016 wrote...

afarkas1 wrote...

I dislike to the tenor of this discussion. I hope they fix this in such a way that people around here don't thump their chests and declare bioware defeated. There has to be a way to make it right where it seems like everyone won. The ending needs to be changed to do the story and fans justice. But it is still a request and not a demand.

If I walk away from this company, it will not be out of anger and a desire to harm. It will be because I think that they have left me behind for a new target audience. Or because I feel like they are in the business of selling an ending separately from the rest of a game.

But what I really would like is to just be able to throw money at them trustingly and without question again.

It will be the same for me.  This is actually what I'm most afraid of, and what I'm sure a lot of others are afraid of too. 

me as well.  I don't want bioware to apologize.  they have nothing to apologize for.  they did what they thought was best.  with all its issues, Mass Effect 3 plays like a love letter to the fans.  which is part of the reason why the ending impacted a lot of us this badly.  I don't want to stop buying bioware games.  but I will if I realize that bioware no longer makes the games that make me happy to play.  how they deal with the ME endings will tell me what I need to know in that regard.  and if I stop buying bioware games, its not becasue I want them ruined.  its because I would realize that I'm no longer part of the target audience.

[Estelindis]

Jamie9 wrote...

I believe a character death (at least a fairly main character) should always serve a purpose. It can cause you to hate the perpetrators, thus generating an emotional response towards a fictional enemy. It can cause you to feel sad, just as that character's friends and family likely feel.

Or it can be bittersweet, where the character dies but you can take solace that their death has helped others be happy.
<snip>
Also, ordered the first 3 books so hopefully I'll be able to pry myself away from the BSN and read them! 

Just fair warning, but not all the deaths in the Malazan Book of the Fallen really serve a purpose...  Or, I should say, many of them serve little purpose beyond showing that an immense war is going on and in war people die.

I still really like the series!

[CaliGuy033]

Stanley Woo and John Epler have absolutely owned this thread. I'm impressed, gents. Keep up the great work.

[Njald]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Skirlasvoud wrote...

And let me just state that you have my respect for coming out here and argueing with us Stanley Woo. That's more than most of your company do with their misinterpretations of our qualms. This is dirty fighting and the odds are against you facing a mob of rabid fans, but hats off that you'd have the guts to engage us at our level.

Nothing personal as we keep taking cracks at Bioware.

And that's the reason more of us don't come in here to discuss things with you. Every line, every word is dissected, criticized, and jumped on. We are accused of lying, of being incompetent, disingenuous, greedy, and apathetic. We are accused of not listening to the fans, not knowing what they want, and not caring about them. We are in a no-win position. And yet, people somehow want us to talk to them more?

Come on, you can't distrust everything we say and insist we tell you things at the exact same time.

Maybe you could release a DLC where you just have a conversation wheel where you can tell Bioware they lie,cheat and ignore you, over and over? It seems to have a certain market appeal as you pointed out.
MaleShep voice actor is already onboard to do additional voice work.

[Naltair]

Thanks to the BioWare staff for being able to have dialogue with the fans, it is much appreciated. I really enjoyed Mass Effect 3 and although the ending was jarring I don't hate it completely. I actually find this Retake Mass Effect 3 movement to be an interesting display for the passion that a group of gamers can have for a game/game franchise.

Personally I think any developer would be happy and also scared to have this level of passion channeled because of a product they produced, though hopefully more positive than negative.  It says to me that the games have touched a nerve with the fan base and really became more than just a form of entertainment but something they really cared about.

To this I say kudos to the fans, and to BioWare as well.

With that said I wish I could get some of the more aggressive or troublesome fans to realize that they hurt their movement more so than make it better with their actions, and over analyzing anything an employee says or public statements to find "hidden" slights or insults will only make things worse. Fans have a passion for the game, that passion is not the same kind of passion that the creators/developers have but they also have an equal passion for their game as well. They are listening to the feedback but they need time and proper perspective to make the right decisions.

These decisions may not be exactly the ones that the vocal fans want but I respect BioWare to make those decisions for their IP that they feel is best. Really patience and understanding on both sides is what will see this through. I love Mass Effect, the series, and the setting. I don't see that changing for me. BioWare loves Mass Effect as well, they dedicated 9 years to the franchise; an ambitious undertaking that I give them great respect for.

No matter what happens, the Mass Effect trilogy are the kinds of games I have always wanted to play and make. That to me says a great deal.

Modifié par Naltair, 29 mars 2012 - 04:34 .

[Jamie9]

Estelindis wrote...
Just fair warning, but not all the deaths in the Malazan Book of the Fallen really serve a purpose...  Or, I should say, many of them serve little purpose beyond showing that an immense war is going on and in war people die.

I still really like the series!

Ah! But that in itself is a purpose. Obviously I haven't read them yet, so may be completely off the mark. But it might make me (the reader) hate the war, the killer of the character etc.

It will likely still serve a purpose - emotional impact. And the author that got me onto the Malazan series is George R.R. Martin. Most of the deaths in his books serve that purpose, of getting you to hate certain characters. But many smaller characters just die, because of war.

I like that kind of writing so I'm confident I'll love the series too.

I don't even know the characters yet and I'm already worried the ones I'll like will die.

[MakeMineMako]

Personally, I'm taking a wait and see approach to this until April. We also need to remember that what they have in store may, or may not, be announced in detail at PAX. We need to be patient.

If we don't get any good news (of any kind) by the end of April, or if some/many/all of us are disappointed with what we hear, then maybe it's time to move on. Moving on to the only logical next phase after this fiasco: voting with your wallets. In other words, taking our business elsewhere. There will be no further need to debate or voice our opinions on Bioware/EA's corporate owned forums regarding ME3's endings. It would be the mature thing to do, leaving this place for those who do like the direction Bioware is going. Or to those that are satisfied with the "fix" that Bioware offers to settle the matter of the endings.

Hopefully, though, Bioware will come up with something that allows all parties to walk away half-way happy. Then we can get back to what BSN does best, which is nitpicking and b*tching about the little things.

Once again, folks, just be patient. Wait and see. It's frustrating, but doable.

[rvgifford]

HKR148 wrote...

...Sounds more like being snide and sarcastic.

This. But then again, more power to . . . us! Hold the line.

[blah64]

D'awwww, isn't Kotaku cute with their snarky comments? Well I'll take what I cane get.

[Cody]

Exeider wrote...

actually, its funny you mentioned it, I did work on an award winning title, an MMO to be specific, you might of heard of it, called EvE Online. worked as a QA Lead and worked with the developers all the time.

I can send you a resume if you don't believe me.

Edit: and a phone number to verify my employment..

-AE

Srsly? Erm, you have to understand that this is the internet so me asking for some proof of this is hardly illogical right? I mean I could do the same thing..."I am the real head of bioware and made the endings the way they are just to ****** off the fans". See? Obviously I am just a 20 year old Canuckian looking for a job (with no avail ) so me asking you to back this claim up wouldn't exactly be unheard of now would it?

Modifié par CodyMelch, 29 mars 2012 - 04:51 .

[Christianswe]

Wow! Cool! Hold the line.
For mass effect!

[x5kevleo]

WE ARE LEGION

[Njald]

In this thread:
Two Bioware employees calmly discussing stuff.
Most of the fans who care.
A few trolls.
All 4 people who enjoy the ending.

[InsaneAzrael]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Skirlasvoud wrote...

And let me just state that you have my respect for coming out here and argueing with us Stanley Woo. That's more than most of your company do with their misinterpretations of our qualms. This is dirty fighting and the odds are against you facing a mob of rabid fans, but hats off that you'd have the guts to engage us at our level.

Nothing personal as we keep taking cracks at Bioware.

And that's the reason more of us don't come in here to discuss things with you. Every line, every word is dissected, criticized, and jumped on. We are accused of lying, of being incompetent, disingenuous, greedy, and apathetic. We are accused of not listening to the fans, not knowing what they want, and not caring about them. We are in a no-win position. And yet, people somehow want us to talk to them more?

Come on, you can't distrust everything we say and insist we tell you things at the exact same time.

Mr Woo.

I love this place even in the face of the backlash. Heck, the forum is a great little melting pot. Or as I call it LOLAPALOOZA.

TBH though. Things like PAX and this forum are going to have the disgruntled in place. The anonimity of the forum (except for those with linked Bioware accounts) are inevitable going to have angry people. Then again, as far as things go, you can always stop on by and be straight up with the customers. The announcements have been rather vague thusfar. I understand your comments. Heck, you've tried.

I get Jessica's contribution. Heck she tried.
Only thing is, a great deal of the angered feel justified in their anger because we gave you guys our dosh. Heck, we can get peeved by mates not paying us back money, or at least not being clear with why they need it. As far as this goes, we gave you guys plenty opportunities and as pathetic as this may sound. We are willing to be naive and trust you guys for the sake of the gestalt that is the stories you tell us.

You do owe us something. A little respect in return for the invested respect. More for others than I of course. You know, the ones standing by with baited breathe. Those guys. So get some of the team in here please. We want a chat, and nothing too formal. You big AAA forum machine.

Az

P.S. Friends?.

[RustyMcBlade]

WE

ARE

KROOOOOOOGAN