1334 réponses à ce sujet

[Blackmind1]

The Angry One wrote...

Also I'd like to know if you think Bethesda is populated with talented and creative individuals or not.
If Todd Howard and the rest of Bethesda, who've made some great games over the years, can stand up and admit they messed up, then I ask you why can't BioWare?

Oh please. Bethesda are NOT talented individuals. They have a talented art and sound team, yes, but it's taken them 10 years to bring out the same game 3 times, each time it's simply been dumbed down more than the last. Skyrim was a boring, useless piece of crap, and the only reason it got the awards it did was because the industry is in such a terrible place, that a hiking simulator with dragons can be considered game of the year. Not considering the mountain of bugs, how unfinished the game is and how much Todd Howard lied about in-game features even 2 months before launch.

Modifié par Blackmind1, 29 mars 2012 - 01:58 .

[Tehzim]

I think it's not surprising that people are so deeply cynical considering some of the snafus that have happened in gaming. Kind of like Molyneux Syndrome: promise the world, deliver a garage. And so many times we're told "we'll fix that" and it means "****** off."

Instead of a public relations nightmare, think of this as an opportunity to salvage an excellent trilogy and win back the legions of fans you're close to losing.

Modifié par Tehzim, 29 mars 2012 - 01:57 .

[shepskisaac]

The entire list is interesting. Don't agree with everything, but buying Eidos was easily the best decision Square made in the past few years. LOL @ EA winning hearts though. Just no. EA's developers are winning hearts. EA the publisher is much more hated than just 2 years ago.

As for BW fans making the list, interesting.

[AntonioA9011]

The Angry One wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

You can't be serious.
The theories this ending has spawned relate to the desire to erase it entirely.
The indoctrination theory is entirely based on the idea that it was all a dream and never happened, so appalled are people by this conclusion.

Yes, some people like it. But overall, their reasons don't stand up to scrutiny. The rest of us have laid down detailed reasons as to why these endings are fundamentally broken, and the discussion they've spawned are not the kind that any true ending to a trilogy like ME3's deserves.

^^^^^^This 100%

[PRC_Heavy_Z]

Stanley Woo wrote...


I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

Yeah, it's not THE worst possible way. But it's still one of the worst ways to end the series. 

And sure there may have been some positive comment out of the overwhelming negative feedbacks and such. However that does not mean the ending was good or even average. 

And spawning of great discussions, theories, and criticism over an issue DEFINITELY does not justify the ending. A whole, sensible and mostly unambiguous ending with a SLIGHT openendedness would have caused the same effect. 

The recent shooting of  Trayvon Martin also caused lots of discussions, theories and criticism. But that doesn't make it a good situation does it?

[KingKhan03]

[violation of Rule #6 removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 29 mars 2012 - 02:20 .

[Dreogan]

Stanley Woo wrote...
If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

And yet... the work's audience, not its creators, defines the work's impact and its legacy. If the audience decides the endings are simplified to red, green, and blue it doesn't matter what Bioware's intentions were: they failed to sell those intentions to us. 

I have no doubt Bioware is staffed and thrives on its creative talent-- we've seen that in the past, we saw it through most of Mass Effect 3. We hoped to see it again. Sadly, such high expectations work against themselves when the audience feels betrayed by easily spotted storytelling failures at the end. The house of cards which is the trilogy's plot comes crashing down.

Of course, some people are bound to like the ending-- just as some people like shallow B-movies or mindless shooters. There's such thing as bad taste. The fact that most game reviewers I've seen only focus on the gameplay, hardly any on the story, shows me the reviews failed to judge or even had the capability to judge its story.

[dakka dakka]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

dakka dakka wrote...

More like

Bioware had planned ending DLC all along and just did this PR stunt to make it seem like we have the power.

amirite?

Your giving them way to much credit.

So you are saying that lying to the fanbase just to make a buck while creating additional DLC content to add on to the end is something worth giving credit to?

Interesting...

[AntonioA9011]

Blackmind1 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Also I'd like to know if you think Bethesda is populated with talented and creative individuals or not.
If Todd Howard and the rest of Bethesda, who've made some great games over the years, can stand up and admit they messed up, then I ask you why can't BioWare?

Oh please. Bethesda are NOT talented individuals. They have a talented art team, but it's taken them 10 years to bring out the same game 3 times, each time it's simply been dumbed down more than the last. Skyrim was a boring, useless piece of crap, and the only reason it got the awards it did was because the industry is in such a terrible place, that a hiking simulator with dragons can be considered game of the year. That is considering the mount of bugs, how unfinished the game is and how much Todd Howard lied about in-game features even 2 months before launch.

Good evening, Casey. Fancy seeing you in here tonight.

Modifié par AntonioA9011, 29 mars 2012 - 01:58 .

[camcon2100]

Stanley Woo wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok but why exactly have you done the ending in the worst possible way? The endings of the prequels were great. Why the drastical change? I can't think about it without DA2 comming to mind.

I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

Why is it so hard for you to stick to a successful formula? Is it a sort of contest? I don't get it.

If you have a formula to guarantee that everyone will like waht you've done, then you have a billion-dollar idea that every game developer would love to buy from you. But there are no guarantees when you're talking about business or creative ventures. At best, you can go with things that generally wort or things that many people would like most of the time. You can get a basic idea of the difficulty in coming up with a guaranteed winning idea by seeing the spectrum of emotions and threads posted in this very forum. Even in this thread there are varied responses and feelings about the ending.

Honestly this makes me worried Woo. If you don't understand the reason people are upset you really don't listen as you say you do. It has been spelled out multiple times. Ending a game with a promise of a non A, B, and C ending and then coming out with and ABC ending was not what you promised. Ending a game and a series with a cliff hanger is not a good thing to do. Seriosly its very simple. The ending is incoherent it goes against basic story telling. Fan's arn't angry we are upset that the amazing and well thought out story you created is literally dropped in the last 10 seconds. The end of a trilogy is not where to speculate, unless there is another game after words. This was supposed to be the end of Shepard's story which its not. I respect you a lot Mr. Woo but if you don't understand what went wrong in the ending I don't know why you are bothering to "listen" to us...

Modifié par camcon2100, 29 mars 2012 - 02:00 .

[Diablos2525]

The Angry One wrote...

Also I'd like to know if you think Bethesda is populated with talented and creative individuals or not.
If Todd Howard and the rest of Bethesda, who've made some great games over the years, can stand up and admit they messed up, then I ask you why can't BioWare?

The game is newly released if they admit they messed up the endings it would make for bad press. In a decent world the press would say "Hey look at this game company fixing their mistakes." In our world it will only hurt EA's stock and Bioware's finances. I trust Bioware will fix the ending once initial sales start to slow up, just like how they later acknowledged Dragon Age 2's flaws.

[petipas4141]

also, how can you defend the "A B C" thing? I just don't see a plausible defense for that.

and the whole fleet being stuck on earth? the relays essentially killing everyone?

i respect artistic direction but this is worse than throwing someone a curve ball. it's hitting someone with a pitch that causes a bench clearing brawl.

[Aznable Char]

Mev186 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Danilo Luis wrote...

There's a huge difference between *listen* and give it the proper attention.

If you aren't willing to accept a response that disagrees with you, or aren't wililng to wait for an answer, or you insist that all of your issues must be resolved when you want them to be, then you're no longer making simple requests and giving feedback, are you? At that point, I would say you're making demands because you feel entitled to them, and we treat those very differently than we treat requests. Which is why we encourage people to be civil and patient and reasonable in their posts.

I agree with Mr. Woo here....to a point. Yes, I agree as fans we should wait and see, reserving judgement until we actually can see what Bioware has planned. That being said, I am cpncerned that Bioware does seem to be a bit angry with it's fanbase right now. And while there is some legitimate reason for this, (For example, rabid fanboyim and snide insults to Bioware) I do feel that that the majority of the fanbase does not deserve to be lumped in with the rest, who simply want and hope that Bioware will do what it always does best, tell amazing stories.

I also agree with Mr. Woo (in so far that I understand him) in the sense that complaining about something to be done on our time and on our schedule is not within our realm of discretion nor is it in the realm of our discretion to determine when something is addressed and when it's not .

We are not entitled to their attention or their pity , even , even though I am sure we have a lot of their compassion and understanding .

This is what we are entitled to , however:

Our Money
Our Time
Our Attention
Our Recommendation to Others
Our Opinion of the game outside of BioWare's spheres .

So instead of attempting to gain something that we are not entitled to (BioWare handholding us)
Let's exercise what we are entitled to .

Spend your money wisely on what you want . If the ending is not what you want , be like me and buy games that are applicable to our likes .
Don't want to spend 200 hours only to have an ending the ruins the experience ? Play a different game . Spend some time doing something else .
Don't want to be hooked in by what some might consider false promises ? Don't listen to their announcements or attend their functions or watch give them pagehits or things like that .
Wish someone warned you about spending 60 dollars on something that you hated ? Be like me and talk about it with your friends . I told them about my experience and they decided for themselves not to buy from BioWare
Feel strongly about warning others to beware of this product? There are great opportunities to make videos and speak freely and openly outside of a moderated forum .

So again . Let's not worry about what we cannot have from BioWare . Let's focus on what we are indeed entitled to . Let them work and not be bothered . Let us be not bothered by them and spend our money elsewhere .

Lastly , why am I here ? Because I wanted to tell BioWare that I loved the game so much that I am willing to give them a chance to fix the ending in order to win back my fan loyalty , money , recommendations , time , effort , etc . I want to be proud to campaign for BioWare again just like when i convinced my friend Luke to buy Dragon Age Origins or when I convinced Anthony to invest in ME1 . I want to be able to do that again . So the Retake movement is about a love letter to BioWare saying "BioWare , please win me back"

And yes people can say we're making demands . So let's not . If Mr. Woo seriously does not want us to demand or feel entitled then let's please not demand . Let's calmly exercise what we are really entitled with instead of asking for something that is not ours .

[Exeider]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm sorry. I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they would like to implement in the game.

So was I Stanley, so was I, until i saw that ending. Then it made me question it.

Stanley Woo wrote...

If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

I would say (as well as 80% + of your customer base says) that it can
be summed up as Red, Blue or Green on the grounds that the endings are
exactly the same save for the different colors, 98% same assets, not the
multiple wildly different endings that was said by Casey Hudson to be
in the works for the end. Simple doesnt even begin to cover it, more like copy and paste.

Stanley Woo wrote...
You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

And the fact that you do not realize the endings for what they are, explains why there is so much ire for bioware right now, and why people are unhappy, and makes people question everything, from biowares sanity to biowares competance.

Stanley Woo wrote...

I would be wary of making such assumptions. Since you aren't on the development team, you can't really know if it was missed, what the issues invovled are, or how or why it appears in the final game. This is a common assumption when players find bugs in the game, but few bugs are well and truly "missed," as you define it.

As far as the face import bug, the fact that this game has been touted as being able to create a character in the first and take them all the way through the series, and that being a MAJOR feature, you would think you would have it in working order before you sent the game to gold master to be produced. So yes, i would say you MISSED it on that one. out of the many bugs that went to production, this was a BIG one.

-AE

[Blackmind1]

AntonioA9011 wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Also I'd like to know if you think Bethesda is populated with talented and creative individuals or not.
If Todd Howard and the rest of Bethesda, who've made some great games over the years, can stand up and admit they messed up, then I ask you why can't BioWare?

Oh please. Bethesda are NOT talented individuals. They have a talented art team, but it's taken them 10 years to bring out the same game 3 times, each time it's simply been dumbed down more than the last. Skyrim was a boring, useless piece of crap, and the only reason it got the awards it did was because the industry is in such a terrible place, that a hiking simulator with dragons can be considered game of the year. That is considering the mount of bugs, how unfinished the game is and how much Todd Howard lied about in-game features even 2 months before launch.

Good evening, Casey. Fancy seeing you in here tonight.

>Calling out a **** game as somebody who has been gaming for nearly 20 years
>Likely a 15 year old who has only been gaming since 360 release: "must be trolling"

Stay classy Bdrones.

Modifié par Blackmind1, 29 mars 2012 - 02:00 .

[shepard1038]

twizbuck wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

Greer wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Danilo Luis wrote...

There's a huge difference between *listen* and give it the proper attention.

If you aren't willing to accept a response that disagrees with you, or aren't wililng to wait for an answer, or you insist that all of your issues must be resolved when you want them to be, then you're no longer making simple requests and giving feedback, are you? At that point, I would say you're making demands because you feel entitled to them, and we treat those very differently than we treat requests. Which is why we encourage people to be civil and patient and reasonable in their posts.

That's quite the low blow, don't you think?

Most people weren't expecting a fix right now. We know those things take time. All most people wanted was acknowledgement that we were upset, that there had been an error in judgement made, and that steps would be taken to rectify said error.

Instead, we got silence.

Mr.Woo is correct actually.  I did not know BioWare telling you they are listening and taking feedback from fans and then Ray coming out and telling you they are working on it and more details will be announced in april is silence.

That is in no way silence, obviously there are rules, and they can't just go out and tell you what you want when you want.  They atleast can tell you they are working on it, which they have said multiple times.

How is this not enough for people?

Because there's no guarantee the announcement will be what the fans want. And yes, I know not every single fan wants a different ending, but the vast majority does, and we need to make sure that's what the announcement will be about. If it's on anything else Mass Effect related (Retake Omega, Multiplayer especially), it could and most likely will be disasterous for Bioware.

What does Multiplayer have to do with the endings?

[Divitiacus]

camcon2100 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok but why exactly have you done the ending in the worst possible way? The endings of the prequels were great. Why the drastical change? I can't think about it without DA2 comming to mind.

I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

Why is it so hard for you to stick to a successful formula? Is it a sort of contest? I don't get it.

If you have a formula to guarantee that everyone will like waht you've done, then you have a billion-dollar idea that every game developer would love to buy from you. But there are no guarantees when you're talking about business or creative ventures. At best, you can go with things that generally wort or things that many people would like most of the time. You can get a basic idea of the difficulty in coming up with a guaranteed winning idea by seeing the spectrum of emotions and threads posted in this very forum. Even in this thread there are varied responses and feelings about the ending.

Honestly this makes me worried Woo. If you don't understand the reason people are upset you really don't listen as you say you do. It has been spelled out multiple times. Ending a game with a promise of a non A, B, and C ending and them coming out with one was not what you promised. Ending a game and a series with a cliff hanger is not a good thing to do. Seriosly its very simple. The ending is incoherent it goes against basic story telling. Fan's arn't angry we are upset that the amazing and well thought out story you created is literally dropped in the last 10 seconds. The end of a trilogy is not where to speculate, unless there is another game after words. This was supposed to be the end of Shepard's story which its not. I respect you a lot Mr. Woo but if you don't understand what went wrong in the ending I don't know why you are bothering to "listen" to us...

Yeah this is worrisome. Like I said earlier, I'm concerned about the inarticulate rage a lot of people have because it gives people a way to deflect more mature criticism and oversimplify why people are upset and thus ignore it.

Modifié par Divitiacus, 29 mars 2012 - 02:01 .

[Blindspy]

Blood type: N7

I like it.

[Byrdman]

Dreogan wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

And yet... the work's audience, not its creators, defines the work's impact and its legacy. If the audience decides the endings are simplified to red, green, and blue it doesn't matter what Bioware's intentions were: they failed to sell those intentions to us. 

I have no doubt Bioware is staffed and thrives on its creative talent-- we've seen that in the past, we saw it through most of Mass Effect 3. We hoped to see it again. Sadly, such high expectations work against themselves when the audience feels betrayed by easily spotted storytelling failures at the end. The house of cards which is the trilogy's plot comes crashing down.

Of course, some people are bound to like the ending-- just as some people like shallow B-movies or mindless shooters. There's such thing as bad taste. The fact that most game reviewers I've seen only focus on the gameplay, hardly any on the story, shows me the reviews failed to judge or even had the capability to judge its story.

This

[camcon2100]

Blackmind1 wrote...

AntonioA9011 wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Also I'd like to know if you think Bethesda is populated with talented and creative individuals or not.
If Todd Howard and the rest of Bethesda, who've made some great games over the years, can stand up and admit they messed up, then I ask you why can't BioWare?

Oh please. Bethesda are NOT talented individuals. They have a talented art team, but it's taken them 10 years to bring out the same game 3 times, each time it's simply been dumbed down more than the last. Skyrim was a boring, useless piece of crap, and the only reason it got the awards it did was because the industry is in such a terrible place, that a hiking simulator with dragons can be considered game of the year. That is considering the mount of bugs, how unfinished the game is and how much Todd Howard lied about in-game features even 2 months before launch.

Good evening, Casey. Fancy seeing you in here tonight.

>Calling out a **** game as somebody who has been gaming for nearly 20 years
>Likely a 15 year old who has only been gaming since 360 release: "must be trolling"

Stay classy Bdrones.

Bye troll!

[The Angry One]

Diablos2525 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Also I'd like to know if you think Bethesda is populated with talented and creative individuals or not.
If Todd Howard and the rest of Bethesda, who've made some great games over the years, can stand up and admit they messed up, then I ask you why can't BioWare?

The game is newly released if they admit they messed up the endings it would make for bad press. In a decent world the press would say "Hey look at this game company fixing their mistakes." In our world it will only hurt EA's stock and Bioware's finances. I trust Bioware will fix the ending once initial sales start to slow up, just like how they later acknowledged Dragon Age 2's flaws.

I disagree. The ending is hurting the game by itself.
Fallout 3's ending was bad, but didn't cause this level of outrage to the point where people are returning their copies and spreading bad word of mouth.

Coming out and admitting that mistakes were made and that they will be fixed would make me respect BioWare 500% more and put an end to a lot of anguish among the fans.
I deeply respect developers who are flawed, but who admit their flaws. I am on the other hand not fond of developers who stonewall their fans.

[CINCTuchanka]

I think that Mr. Woo is correct, there is a HUGE difference between "demanding" and "requesting."  I'm someone that definitely thinks the ending could (and should) have been better.  Could it have been worse?  Of course it could have.  In fact, I would argue it is 1/2 of a great ending.  However, because it feels to me to be only 1/2 of an ending, it ended up being disappointing.  I have faith that BioWare will be able to make changes while NOT sacrificing their creative vision.  But making demands and being angry does no one any good.  This is BioWare's baby too, they've lived with it for a lot longer than we have.

I think it important for everyone to remember that we PAY for BioWare to create THEIR stories, not our own.  I know that my own personal Mass Effect would be awful.   Mostly because every character would be Elcor. 

No one here should want a crowsourced ending.   Think of how awful that would truly be.  Mr. Levine of BioShock fame was correct in saying that if Retakers get the ending they DEMAND instead of a "new 
(or clarified)" ending that BioWare creates then NO ONE wins.  It would feel wrong, a commercial instead of a creative decision.  No one should want that.  I know I wouldn't pay for it or even download it for free.

For those of you who want to vent your displeasure, you are absolutely correct in doing so.  But here is where you have to make the distinction:

Are you angry consumers demanding a change to an entertainment product?  
                               
or

Are you disappointed collaborators in an artistic endeavor requesting a new
direction in the story?

I know which side I would rather be on.  (HINT: It’s the second one). It's the one that lets BioWare be BioWare.  The
company that created those characters we all love?  I figure they deserve at least a modicum of respect and trust.  Don’t cannibalize what you love, BioWare needs  creative freedom or no one will get what they really want.  If you read all this, thanks.

EDIT: Tried to fix formatting, mostly failed. 

Modifié par CINCTuchanka, 29 mars 2012 - 02:04 .

[Geneaux486]

If you don't understand the reason people are upset you really don't listen as you say you do.

This is what I'm talking about. For one thing, fans of the game are not unanimously upset. Secondly, disagreeing with someone else's viewpoint doesn't mean they "don't understand" it. The endings are defendable, and it's mostly been fans of the games doing the defending around here. That alone shows that the ending is not universally hated.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 29 mars 2012 - 02:02 .

[Rogue Unit]

Blackmind1 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Also I'd like to know if you think Bethesda is populated with talented and creative individuals or not.
If Todd Howard and the rest of Bethesda, who've made some great games over the years, can stand up and admit they messed up, then I ask you why can't BioWare?

Oh please. Bethesda are NOT talented individuals. They have a talented art and sound team, yes, but it's taken them 10 years to bring out the same game 3 times, each time it's simply been dumbed down more than the last. Skyrim was a boring, useless piece of crap, and the only reason it got the awards it did was because the industry is in such a terrible place, that a hiking simulator with dragons can be considered game of the year. Not considering the mountain of bugs, how unfinished the game is and how much Todd Howard lied about in-game features even 2 months before launch.

Sounds alot like a game and company we all know.