1334 réponses à ce sujet

[Divitiacus]

EionaCousland wrote...

Just the fact that Bioware even acknowledges how fans feel and talks to them directly is amazing. It's why it upsets me when I see people spewing hate towards them about the endings and other things they didn't like, instead of constructive criticism. If you treat them like that, how long will they keep listening? D:

What is listening? I think there needs to be some acknowledgment of what our real concerns are first, otherwise it's a mere facade. Also, every one of these criticisms is steeped in "I love Mass Effect soooo much." Sounds like praise, constructive criticism though, as in telling them how to improve it, I think we have that as well. No destruction of the theme out of nowhere, beyond that, we don't want to replace their writers, that would be insulting.

[Geneaux486]

Divitiacus wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

If you don't understand the reason people are upset you really don't listen as you say you do.

This is what I'm talking about. For one thing, fans of the game are not unanimously upset. Secondly, disagree with someone else's viewpoint doesn't mean the "don't understand" it. The endings are defendable, and it's mostly been fans of the games doing the defending around here. That alone shows that the ending is not universally hated.

Defending something using strawmen is not a real defense. I expect it from amateurs on a message board, not professionals.

"Starchild", "space magic" and "red/green/blue endings" are all strawmen.  Every argument has its supporters who use strawmen, yet here you are trying to say that everyone who's argued in favor of the endings has used them.  This is not only untrue, but demonstrates a lack of objectivity.

[Slaiyer]

Stanley Woo +1 respect. I don't get how you deal with all of us, but thank you! ( I mean deal as in "don't go insane" or "don't rage back at us")

[Tekkez]

I understand Mr Woo defending the game, but also worries me that Bioware aren't aware of what the fans are asking for.

[Diablos2525]

The Angry One wrote...

Diablos2525 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Also I'd like to know if you think Bethesda is populated with talented and creative individuals or not.
If Todd Howard and the rest of Bethesda, who've made some great games over the years, can stand up and admit they messed up, then I ask you why can't BioWare?

The game is newly released if they admit they messed up the endings it would make for bad press. In a decent world the press would say "Hey look at this game company fixing their mistakes." In our world it will only hurt EA's stock and Bioware's finances. I trust Bioware will fix the ending once initial sales start to slow up, just like how they later acknowledged Dragon Age 2's flaws.

I disagree. The ending is hurting the game by itself.
Fallout 3's ending was bad, but didn't cause this level of outrage to the point where people are returning their copies and spreading bad word of mouth.

Coming out and admitting that mistakes were made and that they will be fixed would make me respect BioWare 500% more and put an end to a lot of anguish among the fans.
I deeply respect developers who are flawed, but who admit their flaws. I am on the other hand not fond of developers who stonewall their fans.

I completely understand, and this is how I feel as well. That being said, I don't think that's the REAL WORLD, the kind of world we operate in, where everybody owns up to their mistakes and makes nice afterwards.
Instead of IGN attacking us, they would probably attack Bioware for caving in to their fans.

[Dragoonlordz]

Blackmind1 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

You can't be serious.
The theories this ending has spawned relate to the desire to erase it entirely.
The indoctrination theory is entirely based on the idea that it was all a dream and never happened, so appalled are people by this conclusion.

Yes, some people like it. But overall, their reasons don't stand up to scrutiny. The rest of us have laid down detailed reasons as to why these endings are fundamentally broken, and the discussion they've spawned are not the kind that any true ending to a trilogy like ME3's deserves.

You do not get to say that part crossed out. We who like it spent the same amount of money as you, many of us including myself have been around as long or longer than many of those who hate it. Just because we came into it with different expectations and desires plus better self control over our reactions does not invalidate our like of what you do not. So plot holes cause you to throw a hissy fit or anger? Well thats valid to you, they do not cause me them in this case. My desires for the remaining last 10 minutes of the game are different to yours but equally as valid whether you like it or not. Where they see a literary failure, I see an enjoyable game and emotional success. Where they bought it for conclusion and end of the trilogy, I bought it game to merely continue the story of the previous two. Where they bought it for these so called 16 endings, I bought it knowing would have an ending of which it did just some people do not like that ending. Whether someone thinks I am being critical enough does not matter to me, I paid for a game that lasted 45 hours and of which I gained enjoyment from during that time.

Amen to that. I would love to do an age poll at some point. How old people are and their first Bioware game. I'll bet we could pick apart the entitled ones pretty fast, and nearly all of them would be a hell of a lot younger than the long time fans who trust Bioware to fix this.

I don't think age is the issue though a great deal of the ones who have attacked me do seem to be new members and only one title registered. There are however those who have more and been around for as long as I have who equally dislike it though most of those are gnerally more mature in their responses.

[Exeider]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

Your right, it wasn't the "Worst" possible ending, just the most incoherent one...

Stanley Woo wrote...

If you have a formula to guarantee that everyone will like waht you've done, then you have a billion-dollar idea that every game developer would love to buy from you. But there are no guarantees when you're talking about business or creative ventures. At best, you can go with things that generally wort or things that many people would like most of the time. You can get a basic idea of the difficulty in coming up with a guaranteed winning idea by seeing the spectrum of emotions and threads posted in this very forum. Even in this thread there are varied responses and feelings about the ending.

Ok, so you looking for a formula, well here is one and it would of worked.  Take ME2's endings and use them as a guide, and expand the scope to the level that you tried in ME3. Using that as a guide, the endings would of organically come into being.

This whole concept of a "twist" ending has become cliche' and that if you want to "buck the trend" you should of gone back to the epic ending style that existed before the "twist" ending style came about.

-AE

[Aznable Char]

warrior256 wrote...

camcon2100 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok but why exactly have you done the ending in the worst possible way? The endings of the prequels were great. Why the drastical change? I can't think about it without DA2 comming to mind.

I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

Why is it so hard for you to stick to a successful formula? Is it a sort of contest? I don't get it.

If you have a formula to guarantee that everyone will like waht you've done, then you have a billion-dollar idea that every game developer would love to buy from you. But there are no guarantees when you're talking about business or creative ventures. At best, you can go with things that generally wort or things that many people would like most of the time. You can get a basic idea of the difficulty in coming up with a guaranteed winning idea by seeing the spectrum of emotions and threads posted in this very forum. Even in this thread there are varied responses and feelings about the ending.

Honestly this makes me worried Woo. If you don't understand the reason people are upset you really don't listen as you say you do. It has been spelled out multiple times. Ending a game with a promise of a non A, B, and C ending and then coming out with and ABC ending was not what you promised. Ending a game and a series with a cliff hanger is not a good thing to do. Seriosly its very simple. The ending is incoherent it goes against basic story telling. Fan's arn't angry we are upset that the amazing and well thought out story you created is literally dropped in the last 10 seconds. The end of a trilogy is not where to speculate, unless there is another game after words. This was supposed to be the end of Shepard's story which its not. I respect you a lot Mr. Woo but if you don't understand what went wrong in the ending I don't know why you are bothering to "listen" to us...

I totally agree with this. There is a difference between disagreeing with our opinions and not understanding them. Based on the way you've responded to us Woo, it is clear that you simply do not understand us. How hard is it to understand why we dislike the endings when there are countless posts, hundreds of video, and God know how many memes that have sprung up explaining why we dislike the ending. If this is supposed to be healing the wounds that have been created, then it's not doing a good job to be honest.

It is rather unfortunate .

However , we are not entitled to Woo's understanding nor should we demand it .

However , when Mr. Woo's employers begin requesting our money for DLCs , or new games , and if you are of the same "I cannot trust that this product will be of a good quality" persuasion as I am , then we can be as silent and stonewall to their requests for our continued patronage . It's true that we have no right to demand anything of them , so let's focus on what we do have rights on . Our money , our time , our ability to recommend or not recommend this brand .

[KingKhan03]

A.B.C

[Blackmind1]

Just to let everyone know; This amount of mass childish behaviour and angry ranting is exactly why they haven't engaged you yet. Stanley came down to show that the team respects all of our thoughts, and you jumped down his throat.

This is how I know you're all still children. You want respect? Show respect.

[warrior256]

Paparob wrote...

I don't really think its debatable the biggest difference between the three endings cinematic is the color of the explosion. I'm not trying to pick on anyone, just saying.

Don't forget that in the destroy ending we got a whole scene that shows Shep breathing! Totally worth collecting all those assets to see that!!!

[kyg_20X6]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

Mr.Woo is correct actually.  I did not know BioWare telling you they are listening and taking feedback from fans and then Ray coming out and telling you they are working on it and more details will be announced in april is silence.

That is in no way silence, obviously there are rules, and they can't just go out and tell you what you want when you want.  They atleast can tell you they are working on it, which they have said multiple times.

How is this not enough for people?

Because people have this product sitting there that they WANT to enjoy, that they're so invested in, that was such a disappointment and that promised so much more. And they're out of pocket. BioWare has our money, here.

And their response has been wait. Well, first it was silence. Then after a week it was wait until people have played more. There was some discussion from BW peeps but then that was totally cutoff with Ray's post and now it's wait 'til April (it might not even be PAX). By PAX, at any rate, it will have been a MONTH that people have had to go through all this without anything REALLY said by BioWare.

All we know is there is a tentative promise of 'content intitiatives' to deliver 'clarity and closure'. That could mean anything. I mean, just have a look at the 'false advertising' threads to get an idea. This could end up being a bloody Omega 'content initiative' where we get 'clarity and closure' on Aria's plotline. And as for feedback, BW had these boards leading up to development to provide them with what the fans would like/dislike to see, yet they still made that ending.

Look, I'd like to optimistic here (I really would) but at this point I'm just exhausted by all this...

[Thornquist]

I agree Woo, Bioware has an amazing track record for listening to fans. ME3 is littered with fan-goodies. I have faith they will make something great from this situation.

[camcon2100]

It's so simple. We Love Mass Effect! We don't like watching Mass Effect literally commit suicide in front of our eyes. Imagine if Star Wars ended with the force being destroyed. Luke dies and we have no idea what happens to Han, Lei, C3PO, R2D2, And Chewy. People are upset because we cared about the universe and it's characters yet both seem to be abandoned at the last minute. Characters we actually cared about we have to speculate on what happend. Are they dead, are they making babies on pandora, or are they picking Shep after his indoctrination. We wanted a valid conclusion to a universe that was rich and filled with people we cared about!

Modifié par camcon2100, 29 mars 2012 - 02:12 .

[Divitiacus]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Divitiacus wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

If you don't understand the reason people are upset you really don't listen as you say you do.

This is what I'm talking about. For one thing, fans of the game are not unanimously upset. Secondly, disagree with someone else's viewpoint doesn't mean the "don't understand" it. The endings are defendable, and it's mostly been fans of the games doing the defending around here. That alone shows that the ending is not universally hated.

Defending something using strawmen is not a real defense. I expect it from amateurs on a message board, not professionals.

"Starchild", "space magic" and "red/green/blue endings" are all strawmen.  Every argument has its supporters who use strawmen, yet here you are trying to say that everyone who's argued in favor of the endings has used them.  This is not only untrue, but demonstrates a lack of objectivity.

Let us stipulate you're right completely right. And what is your point? I still win this argument. Within those are very well articulated complaints. People shorthand them after that. The COMPANY should not then respond to the lowest common denominator, but the cause of the complaints, which as I said, have been rather well defined. When the company's spokespeople respond to strawmen, that's a problem. At least a few fans have not used strawmen, the official response should be to that, not a deflection.

Modifié par Divitiacus, 29 mars 2012 - 02:12 .

[ahandsomeshark]

It seems like every time someone from Bioware says something I feel less reassured and more worried.

I'd really rather be told this was some plot to trick me into giving them more money than that they thought that ending was great. Seriously tell me this is part of an EA plot to turn us all into organic batteries, that's less disconcerting.

[The Angry One]

Diablos2525 wrote...


I completely understand, and this is how I feel as well. That being said, I don't think that's the REAL WORLD, the kind of world we operate in, where everybody owns up to their mistakes and makes nice afterwards.
Instead of IGN attacking us, they would probably attack Bioware for caving in to their fans.

The thing I don't understand is if BioWare works with those of us who hate the ending... nobody loses.

Those who like the current endings can keep them, the rest of us who don't can get the ones that we feel actually maintain the narrative. Everybody wins.

[ahandsomeshark]

shepard1038 wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

As a fan base are we paragon or renegade?

We are Paragade

chaotic neutral 

Im sorry to say this but more like renegade.

I say chaotic neutral because we're either rabidly fanboying or rabidly raging. So it evens out.

[Giguelingueling]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

You do realize that the theory (indoctrination) is based on the assumption that bioware could not fail their ending that hard ?

[sistersafetypin]

Dreogan wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

And yet... the work's audience, not its creators, defines the work's impact and its legacy. If the audience decides the endings are simplified to red, green, and blue it doesn't matter what Bioware's intentions were: they failed to sell those intentions to us. 

I have no doubt Bioware is staffed and thrives on its creative talent-- we've seen that in the past, we saw it through most of Mass Effect 3. We hoped to see it again. Sadly, such high expectations work against themselves when the audience feels betrayed by easily spotted storytelling failures at the end. The house of cards which is the trilogy's plot comes crashing down.

Of course, some people are bound to like the ending-- just as some people like shallow B-movies or mindless shooters. There's such thing as bad taste. The fact that most game reviewers I've seen only focus on the gameplay, hardly any on the story, shows me the reviews failed to judge or even had the capability to judge its story.

A trilogy's end cannot be made in isolation of what fans have come to expect from your IP. And Frankly, I find Woo's comment insulting.

Almost every person that left feedback in the various "official" threads started with an acknowledgement of absolute love for ME3 in particular, and the rest of Mass Effect Universe as well.

But what did we get in return? Silence. Doublespeak. Followed by posts on Twitter & Facebook expressing how Bioware had zero plans to change the ending at all.

Call me crazy, but that doesn't sound like you care what your fans are saying. 

Let me put it this way: You are entitled to your art, but you are not entitled to your fans. If you keep pushing your fans away, we'll leave and Mass Effect will end up being the bittersweet ending you attempted to make. Sweet, because we really loved that universe. Bitter, because we realized the world's creators cared more for Pride then their fans

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

"Starchild", "space magic" and "red/green/blue endings" are all strawmen.  Every argument has its supporters who use strawmen, yet here you are trying to say that everyone who's argued in favor of the endings has used them.  This is not only untrue, but demonstrates a lack of objectivity.

No, they're not.
BTW you do know "Starchild" is Mac Walters' actual name for the character in development notes, right?

[Skirlasvoud]

And let me just state that you have my respect for coming out here and argueing with us Stanley Woo. That's more than most of your company do with their misinterpretations of our qualms. This is dirty fighting and the odds are against you facing a mob of rabid fans, but hats off that you'd have the guts to engage us at our level.

Nothing personal as we keep taking cracks at Bioware.

Modifié par Skirlasvoud, 29 mars 2012 - 02:14 .

[ahandsomeshark]

Aznable Char wrote...

warrior256 wrote...

camcon2100 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok but why exactly have you done the ending in the worst possible way? The endings of the prequels were great. Why the drastical change? I can't think about it without DA2 comming to mind.

I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

Why is it so hard for you to stick to a successful formula? Is it a sort of contest? I don't get it.

If you have a formula to guarantee that everyone will like waht you've done, then you have a billion-dollar idea that every game developer would love to buy from you. But there are no guarantees when you're talking about business or creative ventures. At best, you can go with things that generally wort or things that many people would like most of the time. You can get a basic idea of the difficulty in coming up with a guaranteed winning idea by seeing the spectrum of emotions and threads posted in this very forum. Even in this thread there are varied responses and feelings about the ending.

Honestly this makes me worried Woo. If you don't understand the reason people are upset you really don't listen as you say you do. It has been spelled out multiple times. Ending a game with a promise of a non A, B, and C ending and then coming out with and ABC ending was not what you promised. Ending a game and a series with a cliff hanger is not a good thing to do. Seriosly its very simple. The ending is incoherent it goes against basic story telling. Fan's arn't angry we are upset that the amazing and well thought out story you created is literally dropped in the last 10 seconds. The end of a trilogy is not where to speculate, unless there is another game after words. This was supposed to be the end of Shepard's story which its not. I respect you a lot Mr. Woo but if you don't understand what went wrong in the ending I don't know why you are bothering to "listen" to us...

I totally agree with this. There is a difference between disagreeing with our opinions and not understanding them. Based on the way you've responded to us Woo, it is clear that you simply do not understand us. How hard is it to understand why we dislike the endings when there are countless posts, hundreds of video, and God know how many memes that have sprung up explaining why we dislike the ending. If this is supposed to be healing the wounds that have been created, then it's not doing a good job to be honest.

It is rather unfortunate .

However , we are not entitled to Woo's understanding nor should we demand it .

However , when Mr. Woo's employers begin requesting our money for DLCs , or new games , and if you are of the same "I cannot trust that this product will be of a good quality" persuasion as I am , then we can be as silent and stonewall to their requests for our continued patronage . It's true that we have no right to demand anything of them , so let's focus on what we do have rights on . Our money , our time , our ability to recommend or not recommend this brand .

also this

[CINCTuchanka]

Have you guys considered maybe they'll talk to us more if we don't tear them apart every time they try to talk to us? Just going out on a limb...they don't like to be personally and professionally attacked any more than you do. Keep it civil folks.