1334 réponses à ce sujet

[Kashola]

Man, this thread kills my soul.

[Divitiacus]

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

"Starchild", "space magic" and "red/green/blue endings" are all strawmen.  Every argument has its supporters who use strawmen, yet here you are trying to say that everyone who's argued in favor of the endings has used them.  This is not only untrue, but demonstrates a lack of objectivity.

No, they're not.
BTW you do know "Starchild" is Mac Walters' actual name for the character in development notes, right?

It doesn't even matter, that distracts from the point. Just because some strawmen are used doesn't mean the root cause that has been discussed to death is a strawman, and yet the strawmen are the ones I keep seeing responded to officially. I can see it. It's clear as day.

[Dragoonlordz]

The Angry One wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

You do not get to say that part crossed out. We who like it spent the same amount of money as you, many of us including myself have been around as long or longer than many of those who hate it. Just because we came into it with different expectations and desires plus better self control over our reactions does not invalidate our like of what you do not. So plot holes cause you to throw a hissy fit or anger? Well thats valid to you, they do not cause me them in this case. My desires for the remaining last 10 minutes of the game are different to yours but equally as valid whether you like it or not. Where they see a literary failure, I see an enjoyable game and emotional success. Where they bought it for conclusion and end of the trilogy, I bought it game to merely continue the story of the previous two. Where they bought it for these so called 16 endings, I bought it knowing would have an ending of which it did just some people do not like that ending. Whether someone thinks I am being critical enough does not matter to me, I paid around £30 for a game that lasted 45 hours and of which I gained enjoyment from during that time.

Excuse me? I will say my piece, it's extremely rude to silence me in that manner.
No. Pro-ending reasons do not stand up to scrutiny. If you personally liked it. Fine, whatever. But attempt to argue it logically and it will be dismantled by the rest of us, because the ending is illogical.
It's out of character, it's nonsensical. You cannot justify anything that happens in the last 10 minutes.

If you are personally happy with an ending that makes no sense or simply don't care, those are valid viewpoints, I'm speaking of actually defending the narrative. This is objectively impossible.

You do not understand what logic is. It is logical to gain emotional enjoyment from an element designed to provoke such a response, it is logical to expect a lot of questions, use of imagination and thinking when it was designed to do so. It is logical to expect plot holes when all previous titles also had such. These things it did. It accomplished it's goal. It is not illogical when recieve such things and had a desire for them to exist at that point, for a person to be happy with what they got.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mars 2012 - 02:15 .

[lastpatriot]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Snakedude4life wrote...

But who asked for this ending? What feedback showed you (or rather the designers) that we wanted "space magic"? or a ending that can be summed as "Red, Green or Blue"? Also, did the feedback show that people who might want to import an ME1 Face would have problems?

I'm sorry. I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they would like to implement in the game. I didn't realize that each and every facet of the game needed to be in response to a fan's request.

If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

Mr. Woo,

The problem that many of  your core fans have with the endings is that we were told that certain events would NOT happen with the ending of this outstanding series.  The simple choice of A, B, or C, being a key point.  I think this is where some of the frustration comes from in that we had expected certain outcomes based upon statements made by BioWare yet the end result was nothing what we were told to expect.

The other main issue is that for us, it feels as though the endings currently available leave the player in a situation where none of our previous choiced matter.  If I chose paragon or renegade the entire two games, I would expect to have a vastly different result at the end of ME:3.  However, that's not the case and so it makes me feel that there was little point to the effort made.

Don't get me wrong, I love Mass Effect and I think that BioWare makes the best games available on the market.  It is because of this respect that I am confused about the ending to this game.

[Geneaux486]

Divitiacus wrote...
You're right. And what is your point? Within those are very well articulated complaints. People shorthand them after that. The COMPANY should not then respond to the lowest common denominator, but the cause of the complaints, which as I said, have been rather well defined. When the company's spokespeople respond to strawmen, that's a problem. At least a few fans have not used strawmen, the official response should be to that, not a deflection.

My point is that they're not well articulated complaints.  What people call "space magic" is no more magical than anything else in the game, from the Mass Relays to the Dragon Teeth.  What people call the "Starchild" is really just an AI (and possibly organic) construct that chose to form itself in an image that would be relevant to Shepard's mind, and its role in the story is no different than Vigil's was, or Vendetta, or even Soverign.  Calling the endings "red, blue, or green" completely ignores the vastly different effects each one of those endings has, and the implications for the future in them. 

BTW you do know "Starchild" is Mac Walters' actual name for the character in development notes, right?

Huh, no I didn't know that.  Doesn't change the fact that it's been adapted into a strawman.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 29 mars 2012 - 02:15 .

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

Blackmind1 wrote...

Just to let everyone know; This amount of mass childish behaviour and angry ranting is exactly why they haven't engaged you yet. Stanley came down to show that the team respects all of our thoughts, and you jumped down his throat.

This is how I know you're all still children. You want respect? Show respect.

This, this, this, 1000 times this.

Modifié par GME_ThorianCreeper, 29 mars 2012 - 02:15 .

[camcon2100]

We are practically telling Bioware we will give them our soul and wallet if they fix this but they insist on covering their ears and going "BLAHBLAHBLAH WE CANT HEAR YOU"

[The Angry One]

CINCTuchanka wrote...

Have you guys considered maybe they'll talk to us more if we don't tear them apart every time they try to talk to us? Just going out on a limb...they don't like to be personally and professionally attacked any more than you do. Keep it civil folks.

All of us have been civil, even in the face of remarks which I think uncalled for and oversimplifications of our argument.
If the actualy developers would engage us they would find us respectful but firm in our positions.

[Graphf]

HOLD THE LINE!!!


Bioware listen to this please:



This is possibly the single best video on what is wrong and how to fix it.

Most importantly, PLEASE MAKE OUR CHOICES MATTER.  Give us an epilogue.  Give us MANY MANY MANY different endings that reflect the various choices we've made.  

finally, Please live up to the universe you've created.  It is an amazing universe.

[Space Magic]

Calm down guys, getting this angry at the devs isn't going to help our cause.

It's times like these I wish I could do a paragon interrupt.

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

The Angry One wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

Have you guys considered maybe they'll talk to us more if we don't tear them apart every time they try to talk to us? Just going out on a limb...they don't like to be personally and professionally attacked any more than you do. Keep it civil folks.

All of us have been civil, even in the face of remarks which I think uncalled for and oversimplifications of our argument.
If the actualy developers would engage us they would find us respectful but firm in our positions.

Do you honestly think ALL of you have been civil? Not trying to offend or anything but you are dellusional if you believe this.

Members of the movement have launched personal attacks on the devs and attack players who have different opinions then them, thats hardly civil.

Modifié par GME_ThorianCreeper, 29 mars 2012 - 02:17 .

[raeting]

While I agree that people should remain respectful and patient in their criticisms, I do have to comment on the following.

Stanley Woo wrote...

I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

Ok, so the worst possible ending is perhaps a giant space clown appearing mid-game and eating the galaxy. Followed by a giant troll face that is composed of dancing reapers. 

If, however, I remove the silly extremes, then yes. I do think this was the worst possible ending to the trilogy that could have possibly been created. I sincerely cannot think of a worse ending without delving into the utterly absurd or assuming a malicious author. Which I don't think any of the writers at Bioware are.

I do think it has spawned some interesting discussion, theories, and criticism. But, I do wonder if most of us are really enjoying this? I'm not. But I do care enough to continue to comment, donate, and keep track of things, despite the fact that I've found this entire ordeal both surprising (in a bad way) and disappointing. 

Perhaps I'm in the minority. But, yes, Stanley, at least to me, this was the worst possible scenario.

[petipas4141]

so much about this makes me so damn angry.

how do they not see it? HOW

I really don't think we are the minority (

[camcon2100]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

Just to let everyone know; This amount of mass childish behaviour and angry ranting is exactly why they haven't engaged you yet. Stanley came down to show that the team respects all of our thoughts, and you jumped down his throat.

This is how I know you're all still children. You want respect? Show respect.

This, this, this, 1000 times this.

Every situation has it's positive and negative people. It is not fair when so many have repectfully and carefully explained their grievences. Dissmissing this is almost as bad as the people who are angry and acting like children...

[apieros]

sistersafetypin wrote...

You are entitled to your art, but you are not entitled to your fans.

This. This. This.

1000 times this.

Modifié par apieros, 29 mars 2012 - 02:17 .

[ZiegenkonigIII]

Blackmind1 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

You can't be serious.
The theories this ending has spawned relate to the desire to erase it entirely.
The indoctrination theory is entirely based on the idea that it was all a dream and never happened, so appalled are people by this conclusion.

Yes, some people like it. But overall, their reasons don't stand up to scrutiny. The rest of us have laid down detailed reasons as to why these endings are fundamentally broken, and the discussion they've spawned are not the kind that any true ending to a trilogy like ME3's deserves.

You do not get to say that part crossed out. We who like it spent the same amount of money as you, many of us including myself have been around as long or longer than many of those who hate it. Just because we came into it with different expectations and desires plus better self control over our reactions does not invalidate our like of what you do not. So plot holes cause you to throw a hissy fit or anger? Well thats valid to you, they do not cause me them in this case. My desires for the remaining last 10 minutes of the game are different to yours but equally as valid whether you like it or not. Where they see a literary failure, I see an enjoyable game and emotional success. Where they bought it for conclusion and end of the trilogy, I bought it game to merely continue the story of the previous two. Where they bought it for these so called 16 endings, I bought it knowing would have an ending of which it did just some people do not like that ending. Whether someone thinks I am being critical enough does not matter to me, I paid around £30 for a game that lasted 45 hours and of which I gained enjoyment from during that time.

Amen to that. I would love to do an age poll at some point. How old people are and their first Bioware game. I'll bet we could pick apart the entitled ones pretty fast, and nearly all of them would be a hell of a lot younger than the long time fans who trust Bioware to fix this.

That's quite an assumption.  One that your making blindly, not to mention.

Someone has actually done this.  Ages varied, drastically.  From 15-50, literally there was no pattern.  

[Aznable Char]

sistersafetypin wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

And yet... the work's audience, not its creators, defines the work's impact and its legacy. If the audience decides the endings are simplified to red, green, and blue it doesn't matter what Bioware's intentions were: they failed to sell those intentions to us. 

I have no doubt Bioware is staffed and thrives on its creative talent-- we've seen that in the past, we saw it through most of Mass Effect 3. We hoped to see it again. Sadly, such high expectations work against themselves when the audience feels betrayed by easily spotted storytelling failures at the end. The house of cards which is the trilogy's plot comes crashing down.

Of course, some people are bound to like the ending-- just as some people like shallow B-movies or mindless shooters. There's such thing as bad taste. The fact that most game reviewers I've seen only focus on the gameplay, hardly any on the story, shows me the reviews failed to judge or even had the capability to judge its story.

A trilogy's end cannot be made in isolation of what fans have come to expect from your IP. And Frankly, I find Woo's comment insulting.

Almost every person that left feedback in the various "official" threads started with an acknowledgement of absolute love for ME3 in particular, and the rest of Mass Effect Universe as well.

But what did we get in return? Silence. Doublespeak. Followed by posts on Twitter & Facebook expressing how Bioware had zero plans to change the ending at all.

Call me crazy, but that doesn't sound like you care what your fans are saying. 

Let me put it this way: You are entitled to your art, but you are not entitled to your fans. If you keep pushing your fans away, we'll leave and Mass Effect will end up being the bittersweet ending you attempted to make. Sweet, because we really loved that universe. Bitter, because we realized the world's creators cared more for Pride then their fans

I second this motion .

I think , however , I have to remind you of what Mr. Woo said . We are not entitled to any press release from them . We are not entitled to anything . They have been more than gracious to keep us around .

And at the same time we have been more than gracious to stick by this brand despite the insulting double talk , pontificating from a position of authority , among other things telling us that we're wrong entitled , etc . And no I don't necessarily mean Mr. Woo even though some might argue he crossed that boundary , I am more so talking about critics who berated this movement .

Therefore , if they have no patience for us , then why should we have patience about where we spend our money ? Why stay loyal or recommend the BioWare brand anymore ? the burden of repairing this rift is not with us , it's with them . Let them make as much art as they want , they certainly won't get another penny from me to support their pet project endings .

[The Angry One]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

You do not understand what logic is. It is logical to gain emotional enjoyment from an element designed to provoke such a response, it is logical to expect a lot of questions, use of imagination and thinking when it was designed to do so. These things it did. It accomplished it's goal. It is not illogical when recieve such things and had a desire for them to exist at that point, for a person to be happy with what they got.

Missing the point.
The endings are illogical. Not the people that like them.
Again, if you like the endings in spite of their nonsensicalness, good for you.

But you cannot argue that they make any sense. The Normandy scene has no context, no logic and is completely out of character.
The Catalyst is a narrative disaster, introducing a new character with new elements in the final segment of the story, it violates every literary rule for a classic hero/adventure story out there.

[N7L4D]

Mr.woo is the man!!!!

[Jamboa42]

Danilo Luis wrote...

The fact is: we didn't get what we were told. That's all. We didn't retake Earth, we didn't get a lot of different endings, where our choices in the previous games mattered, we didn't get closure. So, yeah, we are angry for a reason: Bioware lied to us.

Frankly you're full of it. Every choice you made in the other 2 games came to fruition in this one. But YOu'll never admit it, because you're on the "Ending sucks" bandwagon.

[TheOptimist]

ZeBlob987 wrote...

just gonna say, major props to Stanley Woo for actually posting in this thread. He also has some valid points, though I disagree with a few (it is not the worst possible ending [The game ending with the Reapers winning and the cycle continuing no matter what, for example, is worse in terms of writing, or close to it.] , but the discussion about it does not make it better than that.).

I'm going with this.  The fact that he's taken time to talk to us atleast a little is a huge improvement.  Jessica did this as well, and I know, you guys have things you can't talk about or aren't told.  We appreciate you coming to talk to us. 

That said, there are things Stanley said I disagree with.  With a big enough grouping, there are bound to be people who support darn near anything.  In this case, when you have a game sold to millions of people, you will NEVER get them all to agree on anything.  There are people who like the ending.  According to every poll I can find, and certainly every poll on your forums, which one would expect to be populated with the most ardent Bioware fans, approximately 90% of respondents dislike the endings.  This goes down to 85% and up to 93%, but it basically holds true.  Robert Kennedy once said that 20% of people are against everything, all the time, which means if 80% of people agree on something, you're doing about as well as you could expect.  Again, with this issue, we're a lot closer to 90% agreeing.  Having people who argue with that 90% doesn't mean the ending wasn't terrible.  It's simply a reflection of the fact that when you have this many people, you're not going to get 100% consensus.  Humans don't work that way.

[Blackmind1]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

Have you guys considered maybe they'll talk to us more if we don't tear them apart every time they try to talk to us? Just going out on a limb...they don't like to be personally and professionally attacked any more than you do. Keep it civil folks.

All of us have been civil, even in the face of remarks which I think uncalled for and oversimplifications of our argument.
If the actualy developers would engage us they would find us respectful but firm in our positions.

Do you honestly think ALL of you have been civil? Not trying to offend or anything but you are dellusional if you believe this.

Some have been civil, most haven't. I find "the Angry One" mostly pops up during uncivil arguments. One of those "fuel to the fire" kind of people, it seems.

[The Angry One]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

Have you guys considered maybe they'll talk to us more if we don't tear them apart every time they try to talk to us? Just going out on a limb...they don't like to be personally and professionally attacked any more than you do. Keep it civil folks.

All of us have been civil, even in the face of remarks which I think uncalled for and oversimplifications of our argument.
If the actualy developers would engage us they would find us respectful but firm in our positions.

Do you honestly think ALL of you have been civil? Not trying to offend or anything but you are dellusional if you believe this.

There will always be extremists. Those who cross the line can be banned. End of problem.

[Skirlasvoud]

CINCTuchanka wrote...

Have you guys considered maybe they'll talk to us more if we don't tear them apart every time they try to talk to us? Just going out on a limb...they don't like to be personally and professionally attacked any more than you do. Keep it civil folks.

Stanley is Public relations. I'm sure he knows that there's more a rougher side to any disgruntled mob. He took courses. Like I said, he has my respect for doing this. And all of Bioware is backed by a powerful department that's supposed to dam and divert the flow of public opinion. Feeling sorry for them isn't neccesary. It's like feeling sorry for the tall trees caught in the wind.


Besides, forums are no place for a civil discussion. I myself would delight in just renting a small room with the most eloquent retakers and then face Stanley and the Bioware team.

We'd get a lot further.

Modifié par Skirlasvoud, 29 mars 2012 - 02:20 .

[loudent3]

Stanley Woo wrote...
I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

It doesn't The *REST* of ME has that kind of power, the only power the ending seems to have is to be so different that it almost feels like it was created by someone completely unfamiliar with the ME series.