210 réponses à ce sujet

[CaliGuy033]

Props to the OP.

[Ianamus]

The endings were just badly done. Bioware were not being smart or clever with their ending, and it has no secret meaning. It was just badly written, and coming up with outlandish theories does not change that.

Modifié par EJ107, 29 mars 2012 - 07:03 .

[jla0644]

jb1983 wrote...

Here is the simplest explanation for the ending:

Someone on that writing staff is a huge Kubrick fan and wants to be like Kubrick. When he was asked why he did the ending to 2001 the way he did, his exact words were "Speculation."

And that's what we have here. The problem with this is that:

1) This wasn't a movie
2) The writers for Bioware, talented as they are, aren't Kurbick (no one is)
3) Kubrick was attempting to deconstruct plot development; it was a philosophical venture. That works great for books and movies, but not for video games where people are participating rather than watching

Again, I "get" the ending, but still think it's poorly done. I'm all for bringing philosophy into video games. I'd love to see a sci-fi game where you're basically fighting aliens who rely on egoism and have become Nietzsche's "overmen." But when it's not done properly, you get...well...you get the ME3 endings.

Exactly. I loved 2001, I hate the ME3 ending.

A 2 hour movie with a vague ending that makes you think can be great. Same thing for a book.

3 videogames over the span of 5 years that has resulted in (for some of us) hundreds of hours of gamplay, where we have been asked to make major decisions concerning our characters and our stories, needs a little more than ambiguity and speculation.

[DarkBladeX98]

stand strong. stand together.

[Humakt83]

OP: Holding the line is about getting a new ending. Indoctrination theory does not nullify the need for it. Shepard escapes the indoctrination attempt, what then? All is left open and really a dlc for the ending is required.

Here is more reasoning http://social.biowar.../index/10248067

EDIT: So you came into another conclusion about the ending, do you feel it has given enough closure for the trilogy?

Modifié par Humakt83, 29 mars 2012 - 07:29 .

[Peete]

Seriously, looke at all the other missions! Even if the ending is only half-bad-bordering-on-satisfactory why shouldn't we want more?! It's the most vital mission in the game! Why do they give us something that is so sub-par to the rest of the series??

[AlexXIV]

Ah yes, "he figured it out but it would be too long to post".

[MrnDpty161]

Hell --- with enough time and thought, you can think anything could be clever when your left with half-measures and assumptions.

[LinksOcarina]

jb1983 wrote...

Here is the simplest explanation for the ending:

Someone on that writing staff is a huge Kubrick fan and wants to be like Kubrick. When he was asked why he did the ending to 2001 the way he did, his exact words were "Speculation."

And that's what we have here. The problem with this is that:

1) This wasn't a movie
2) The writers for Bioware, talented as they are, aren't Kurbick (no one is)
3) Kubrick was attempting to deconstruct plot development; it was a philosophical venture. That works great for books and movies, but not for video games where people are participating rather than watching

Again, I "get" the ending, but still think it's poorly done. I'm all for bringing philosophy into video games. I'd love to see a sci-fi game where you're basically fighting aliens who rely on egoism and have become Nietzsche's "overmen." But when it's not done properly, you get...well...you get the ME3 endings.

To the first two points, so what? Kubrick is kind of overrated as a writer and the fact that this wasn't a movie means nothing, going into below. 

To the third point, thats not the case anymore. We have seen an influx of games where even playing them you have to deconstruct the philosophical nature of the universe at hand. Indie games all the time try to deconsturct the mechanics of what they are and why they are important. Braid comes to mind as an example of turning the tropes around to a complete 180, but we have seen this in big budget titles as well. 

For example...

You ever play a game called Shadow of the Colossus? A game where (SPOILER ALERT) you are basically duped into killing innocent monster to "save" the life of one princess for a dark power? Its literally a faustian bargain story and it is one that is not explicitally told to in the players face. It happens in the last thirty minutes of the game, it also had a completely ambiguous ending to its tale, although the entire game was somewhat minimalist to begin with.

Or how about any Legend of Zelda game, which is basically analagous to stories of greek myths? Link is an epic hero always on a heros journey, traversing dungeons, fighting monsters and a pure evil, sometimes winning, sometimes winning bittersweetly, but coming out on top due to courage and sacrifice. 

And then we can go into games like Prince of Persia from 2008, which really had an open ended climax where it is implied that the Prince killed life to save Elika, the young girl following him around everywhere because of love and devotion to her, and the fact that she may be a messiah of sorts due to her magic. powers. Of course, that game is also based on some philosophical elements of Zorarstinism, an ancient religion that has less than 200,000 followers in the present  day. 

Last one I can think of in short notice is Bioshock, which is basically an entire treatment of Ayn Rand philosophy of objectivist idealism vs free will and fatalism. Hell, the big twist in that game, the fact that you, as the player character, had no free will for the first 2/3rds of the adventure, was so well earned, its the reason why Bioshock is so damn popular. 

My point is, Mass Effect is not the first game to have something that would be considered a philosophical style ending that attempts to play around with the conventional mechanics.

The only thing I can say is that you are right, they may not have implemented it correctly. I personally had problems only with the lack of closure, not the philosophical questions asked. That is the biggest issue for me, but the questions at hand shouldn't be discounted in the end. A week ago I wrote a Socratic Debate over the Mass effect 3...well...controversy. It basically sums up the whole issue at hand, because in the end, no one is really right or wrong, and that is kind of the point it feels like. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 29 mars 2012 - 07:37 .

[humes spork]

AlexXIV wrote...

Ah yes, "he figured it out but it would be too long to post".

Given the tempo and mood of these forums right now, it would be an utter, complete exercise in futility. The poor sap could write a 20,000 word airtight thesis on the ending and the best it could be met with is to be drowned under an avalanche of posts of people far happier to complain about the ending than they are to think about it, let alone be charitable towards people who disagree.

[nwj94]

Why don't you not act like a reaper and assume is beyond us to comprehend the endings and tell us what you think makes them so great.

Until then your only confirming the bias that many of us have that the pro-enders can't actually defend their endings and thats why they just rage and troll rather than actually debating.

[Persephone]

humes spork wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ah yes, "he figured it out but it would be too long to post".

Given the tempo and mood of these forums right now, it would be an utter, complete exercise in futility. The poor sap could write a 20,000 word airtight thesis on the ending and the best it could be met with is to be drowned under an avalanche of posts of people far happier to complain about the ending than they are to think about it, let alone be charitable towards people who disagree.

Pretty much this, sadly.

[AlexXIV]

humes spork wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ah yes, "he figured it out but it would be too long to post".

Given the tempo and mood of these forums right now, it would be an utter, complete exercise in futility. The poor sap could write a 20,000 word airtight thesis on the ending and the best it could be met with is to be drowned under an avalanche of posts of people far happier to complain about the ending than they are to think about it, let alone be charitable towards people who disagree.

Maybe but the rules in the internet are simple. Put up or shut up. He is just comming here to tell everyone we couldn't figure it out but he could and blah blah. No evidence. Useless thread altogether.

[LinksOcarina]

AlexXIV wrote...

humes spork wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ah yes, "he figured it out but it would be too long to post".

Given the tempo and mood of these forums right now, it would be an utter, complete exercise in futility. The poor sap could write a 20,000 word airtight thesis on the ending and the best it could be met with is to be drowned under an avalanche of posts of people far happier to complain about the ending than they are to think about it, let alone be charitable towards people who disagree.

Maybe but the rules in the internet are simple. Put up or shut up. He is just comming here to tell everyone we couldn't figure it out but he could and blah blah. No evidence. Useless thread altogether.

The rules of the internet can go take a hike when people constantly see gamers in a negative light. Maybe it was funny back in 2007, but that **** doesn't fly anymore in 2012.

So stop justifying it by saying "its the internet." 

[Persephone]

AlexXIV wrote...

humes spork wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ah yes, "he figured it out but it would be too long to post".

Given the tempo and mood of these forums right now, it would be an utter, complete exercise in futility. The poor sap could write a 20,000 word airtight thesis on the ending and the best it could be met with is to be drowned under an avalanche of posts of people far happier to complain about the ending than they are to think about it, let alone be charitable towards people who disagree.

He is just comming here to tell everyone we couldn't figure it out but he could and blah blah. No evidence. Useless thread altogether.

He did not say that at all.

Explaining anything BUT a hateful/spiteful interpretation of the endings in this volatile snakepit of a forum is nothing short of masochism.

[humes spork]

Persephone wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Given the tempo and mood of these forums right now, it would be an utter, complete exercise in futility. The poor sap could write a 20,000 word airtight thesis on the ending and the best it could be met with is to be drowned under an avalanche of posts of people far happier to complain about the ending than they are to think about it, let alone be charitable towards people who disagree.

He is just comming here to tell everyone we couldn't figure it out but he could and blah blah. No evidence. Useless thread altogether.

He did not say that at all.

Explaining anything BUT a hateful/spiteful interpretation of the endings in this volatile snakepit of a forum is nothing short of masochism.

Precisely.

I can only speak for myself, but for over a week now I've "put up". Anyone willing to search here for my past posts can see that readily. I'm personally unwilling to restate my position for each and every whackadoodle on the internet.

[CaliGuy033]

AlexXIV wrote...

humes spork wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ah yes, "he figured it out but it would be too long to post".

Given the tempo and mood of these forums right now, it would be an utter, complete exercise in futility. The poor sap could write a 20,000 word airtight thesis on the ending and the best it could be met with is to be drowned under an avalanche of posts of people far happier to complain about the ending than they are to think about it, let alone be charitable towards people who disagree.

Maybe but the rules in the internet are simple. Put up or shut up. He is just comming here to tell everyone we couldn't figure it out but he could and blah blah. No evidence. Useless thread altogether.

What kind of "evidence" is he supposed to provide, exactly?  I can't stop chuckling at how people throw that word around here.

I say it again: solid post, OP.  

[Saboteur-6]

Solid post? It didn't really say anything other than "I figured out the real meaning to the story but I'm not going to explain it. " In which case I echo the sentiment of "Cool story bro". I mean why bother even make a thread about it then.

[InsaneAzrael]

It is a bit disappointing that you did not post your opinion OP.
Even just to put it under appreciation for a minute.

Also, for those who think of this place as a snakepit. Whatever it is, that is rather a stilted perception.
So what, people are antsy. That happens, that is how people behave initially when they feel objectionable. Anonymous posting is an easy out for people who want to express the feeling. Especially when they don't know how or can't satisfactorily do so amongst familiars.

Back to the point though. Thanks OP. If you do make a video with your perspective, I would surely give it a watch. I don't know if I would even have anything to say, but I don't know what you discovered.

It would be nicer to have seen you express yourself freely.

[nicksmi56]

I just have one question. Is your explanation full of your own theories? I'm seriously asking

[InsaneAzrael]

LinksOcarina wrote...
for example...

There was also Deus Ex and Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

Then again, those games held the core plots they were based on. Plus, your examples were stand alones. Even the Zelda games were separate from one another.

ME is a running trilogy. In doing so, it may simply be the case that there were too many stories and too little disc-space, development crew, mental energy, etc. etc.

So the endings really were more likely a testiment to poor planning and execution. Which is why I must say something.

The story was not actually maintained. The plotholes were mounting and it is evident that the ambition of the series (to carry choices through to the end) became too burdensome for the team.
I could be wrong. I may even consider humouring Bioware for their DLC (if I can get it for free). At this stage though, I retain the position that the game is incomplete and the endings were not succinct in settling most anything.

Why? You may have already guessed it. The final reveal was incoherent. The series coherence was demolished. If I want inane ramblings, I will record myself talking.

Thanks for your insightfulness and good manners. It is a breath of fresh air.

[Klijpope]

LinksOcarina wrote...

<snip>

The only thing I can say is that you are right, they may not have implemented it correctly. I personally had problems only with the lack of closure, not the philosophical questions asked. That is the biggest issue for me, but the questions at hand shouldn't be discounted in the end. A week ago I wrote a Socratic Debate over the Mass effect 3...well...controversy. It basically sums up the whole issue at hand, because in the end, no one is really right or wrong, and that is kind of the point it feels like. 

Hey that debate is brilliant. Basically covers every argument, fairly from both sides, and makes these boards redundant. 

Every post just needs to refer back to that from now on...

[LinksOcarina]

InsaneAzrael wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
for example...

There was also Deus Ex and Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

Then again, those games held the core plots they were based on. Plus, your examples were stand alones. Even the Zelda games were separate from one another.

ME is a running trilogy. In doing so, it may simply be the case that there were too many stories and too little disc-space, development crew, mental energy, etc. etc.

So the endings really were more likely a testiment to poor planning and execution. Which is why I must say something.

The story was not actually maintained. The plotholes were mounting and it is evident that the ambition of the series (to carry choices through to the end) became too burdensome for the team.
I could be wrong. I may even consider humouring Bioware for their DLC (if I can get it for free). At this stage though, I retain the position that the game is incomplete and the endings were not succinct in settling most anything.

Why? You may have already guessed it. The final reveal was incoherent. The series coherence was demolished. If I want inane ramblings, I will record myself talking.

Thanks for your insightfulness and good manners. It is a breath of fresh air.

I do what I can to be nice. I will admit though my patience has been running on empty as of late. 

One thing I should bring up though, something that did occur to me after playing Mass Effect 2 actually. What kind of character is Commander Shepard? Is he supposed to be a messianic figure, is he supposed to be a mythical hero? Or is it just a regular guy in impossible situations?

Answering that question is just as important as analyzing the ending, because the type of hero Shepard is supposed to be might shed light on things unforseen. For my money, Shepard is like Link in that he is a mythic style hero, and the past five years we saw the myth play out before our eyes.

Klijpope wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

<snip>

The only thing I can say is that you are right, they may not have implemented it correctly. I personally had problems only with the lack of closure, not the philosophical questions asked. That is the biggest issue for me, but the questions at hand shouldn't be discounted in the end. A week ago I wrote a Socratic Debate over the Mass effect 3...well...controversy. It basically sums up the whole issue at hand, because in the end, no one is really right or wrong, and that is kind of the point it feels like. 

Hey that debate is brilliant. Basically covers every argument, fairly from both sides, and makes these boards redundant. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

Every post just needs to refer back to that from now on...

 

Thanks for the kind words. I made a topic about it a while back but it got buried over the rest, it happens.

[AIR MOORE]

SimKoning wrote... ...

You may notice that I haven't actually posted what I have figured out. That's because the explanation will likely result in tl;dr responses. ...

Um, you could just PM individuals who actually would read it, thus avoiding your entire "explanation" for not explaining it in the open forums...

I read at an exceptionally fast rate, and wouldn't mind a good read. Why do you not PM this to me?


Hrmmmm?

[Motherlander]

The OP's post was just as cryptic as the ending was.

Both say the same thing.

"This is how things are. It's not what you want to see. But I wont explain anything to help you understand."