229 réponses à ce sujet

[Silvair]

NOTHING is as it should be on Gold.  With gold, only a few things are "very" effective.

And most people don't play gold because of that.  They have to drop everything and just do the "most" effective.  Most weapons are pointless, most powers are pointless, because enemies are cranked up so high.


Please, stop using Gold as a point of reference for how weapons/powers should work.  It is an extreme, not the standard.

[Trakarg]

So, what, should we use bronze as a standard? Lol.

[Silvair]

Trakarg wrote...

So, what, should we use bronze as a standard? Lol.

Bronze is the other extreme.  use silver, because it's the average, the standard.

Bronze is easy
Silver is normal
Gold is hard.

You never use Easy or Hard as points of reference, because they are variations of the standard, Normal.

[xiaoassassin]

Gold tells BW how poorly balanced the game is right now. If Silver/Bronze was used as a benchmark then nothing would change. Balancing from the top is the way games get fixed.

[Trakarg]

The game should still be balanced properly around gold. Being on the extreme end of the difficulty scale shouldn't immediately nullify gameplay imbalances occurring on the difficulty.

[Cyonan]

Gold should still be the standard that Bioware balances around. As long as things are viable in gold, they'll generally be considered viable in everything else.

[Atheosis]

Game balance should not be determined by the lowest common denominator. Most of the issues that exist on Gold exist on all difficulty levels, they're just magnified because of the fact that enemies are "cranked up". AR's don't do as much damage as they should on any difficulty. Human soldiers are weaker than all the other classes on any difficulty. And so on. If Gold becomes better balanced that does not hurt Silver and Bronze. If anything it improves them as well.

By the way, most powers are not pointless on Gold. A few are, but most are still perfectly viable. Weapons have issues though, but again those issues exist on all difficulties (sniper rifles and pistols are the best guns on Bronze just as much as on Gold, and AR's and SMG's are clearly second class citizens for the most part across difficulties as well). The weapon balance is just wonky in this game. Period.

[KroganSmash]

Considering the ineffectiveness of most weapons on gold I say they use that as the benchmark for modifying weapons

[TSCIGAR]

I would think that the idea that you have to play with certain things on gold would be indicative that gold is where things need to be balanced.

[Atheosis]

Silvair wrote...

Trakarg wrote...

So, what, should we use bronze as a standard? Lol.

Bronze is the other extreme.  use silver, because it's the average, the standard.

Bronze is easy
Silver is normal
Gold is hard.

You never use Easy or Hard as points of reference, because they are variations of the standard, Normal.

Most of the issues people have with balance in Gold exist in Silver as well.  Come on now.

[Knight_Quack]

Gold is King of the Hill for me, the hill is where your teammates are.

[Crimson Invictus]

If you use gold as the "standard" bronze will become even easier than it is now and silver will be the new bronze.

Gold should certainly be accounted for, but if you balance purely by gold you're simply ensuring power creep destroys the other two.

[Father Alvito]

Difficulty is a constraint. It makes it harder to win. Things need to be balanced on the hardest difficulty. Approaches that are viable there will be viable when you loosen the constraint by dialing the difficulty down.

Silver is never going to be heavily populated with power gamers that will expect you to bring something hyper-efficient to shave two minutes off the clear time. There will not be social problems if Gold has lots of viable builds and Silver has a few builds that are OP. There will be social problems if the reverse is true.

Gold should certainly be accounted for, but if you balance purely by gold you're simply ensuring power creep destroys the other two.

The enemies in Silver/Bronze can always be tweaked to prevent those difficulties from getting destroyed by power creep.  But no one is asking Bioware to buff things that are already strong.  What players want to see is other classes and weapons being brought in line to the point that they are competitive.  Buffing things to be stronger than existing builds just shuffles the deck chairs on the Titanic.  Same problem, different OP builds.  Nothing changes.

Modifié par Father Alvito, 29 mars 2012 - 06:24 .

[Atheosis]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

If you use gold as the "standard" bronze will become even easier than it is now and silver will be the new bronze.

Gold should certainly be accounted for, but if you balance purely by gold you're simply ensuring power creep destroys the other two.

No one is arguing that Human Vanguards should be buffed, or Krogan melee damage.  Those already make Bronze trivial as it is, not even factoring in the builds that own Bronze, Silver, and Gold like Infiltrators and Adepts.  Right now, the ease of Bronze is not due to things like AR damage or Adrenaline Surge sucking.  It's due to things no one is arguing should be buffed like Biotics and close range death machines like Human Vanguards and Krogans.  Buffing the crap that is no good presently will not suddenly make Bronze or Silver easier.  Both are already laughably easy because of other factors that are completely seperate from the glaring issues we Gold players are focused on. 

[Crimson Invictus]

Father Alvito wrote...
 But no one is asking Bioware to buff things that are already strong.  What players want to see is other
classes and weapons being brought in line to the point that they are competitive.  Buffing things to be stronger than existing builds just shuffles the deck chairs on the Titanic.  Same problem, different OP
builds.  Nothing changes.

That isn't, however, what I said. If things are brought into line to be competitive on gold, they will simply dominate silver. Right now the effective builds on gold make it a joke rather than provide a challenge, while everything else is pushed to one side. Bringing everything up to the standard of the current meta will make gold a breeze regardless of what people bring.

The things that make gold a walkover need bringing back into line and the things that have no place outside bronze need bringing up to a suitable level. That level is silver since gold, assumedly, is still meant to be challenge.

Atheosis wrote...
we Gold players

I laughed. I didn't realise it was an exclusive club.

Modifié par Liana Nighthawk, 29 mars 2012 - 06:51 .

[Lynx7725]

I personally also believe that Gold makes for a poor standard to balance weapons and powers around. There's very few weapons and builds that Gold players believe in; it makes balancing the rest difficult due to lack of data.

Not to mention that no-spillover from shields changes the game meta tremendously. The spawn rate and type also is different for each level, and that changes the game meta too. Generally tougher opponents also changes things, since your weapons damage do not scale with difficulty.

I also agree that Silver should be the balance standard. If we translate difficulties from SP, Silver should be Normal or Hard. Bronze is Easy. Gold is Insanity.

If things are balanced around Gold, then many weapons would break in Silver or Bronze. Balancing that way shortens the game life expectancy in Bronze or Silver, and as a direct impact will lower the number of players progressing into Gold.

Gold is meant to be difficult. Balancing weapons such that they become more effective in Gold means Silver and Bronze will break even worse. That's not healthy.

[hireuin]

gold is stupidly easy if you have a team that knows what they're doing... so many gold game failures are because 1 or more player in the group couldn't even get 25 kills when you managed to get >50, in effect they were worthless. but that's besides the point...

asari adept is still miles better than human soldier, even on bronze.

SMG's gain bonus damage to shields, but it's not enough on gold. therefore imo SMG should do percentage damage versus shields, to give some versatility in gold - and add assault rifles to the anti-shield group as well.

[Cyonan]

Lynx7725 wrote...

I personally also believe that Gold makes for a poor standard to balance weapons and powers around. There's very few weapons and builds that Gold players believe in; it makes balancing the rest difficult due to lack of data.

Not to mention that no-spillover from shields changes the game meta tremendously. The spawn rate and type also is different for each level, and that changes the game meta too. Generally tougher opponents also changes things, since your weapons damage do not scale with difficulty.

I also agree that Silver should be the balance standard. If we translate difficulties from SP, Silver should be Normal or Hard. Bronze is Easy. Gold is Insanity.

If things are balanced around Gold, then many weapons would break in Silver or Bronze. Balancing that way shortens the game life expectancy in Bronze or Silver, and as a direct impact will lower the number of players progressing into Gold.

Gold is meant to be difficult. Balancing weapons such that they become more effective in Gold means Silver and Bronze will break even worse. That's not healthy.

it's not so much the Gold players that think only 2 or 3 things are useful in Gold as it is the min/max'ers that do.

That said, I believe everything that currently works decently in Gold, also works in Silver/Bronze. Usually when you balance from the top down you end up with most things working and only a couple of strategies not working due to a high skill requirement that a newer player generally isn't going to have just yet.

[BNRasec]

Gold is the standard. If you can't play it, get better or quit.

[Wynne]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

The things that make gold a walkover 

Please tell me what you are doing that makes Gold a walkover! Seriously. No sarcasm. I just started playing Gold the last few days and I'm curious. Cerberus with a vanguard/drell adept felt pretty hard, and I've often topped the charts with those characters on Silver. That has not been the case on Gold. 

Tell me how to own, o swami! (Goofy, but still not sarcastic.) I want to make back the million credits or so that I lost in the buggy store, so any sort of strategy recommendations are welcome. It's hard to go back to Silver once you see how many credits you get from succeeding at the mission in Wave 10.

hireuin wrote...

gold is stupidly easy if you have a team that knows what they're doing... so many gold game failures are because 1 or more player in the group couldn't even get 25 kills when you managed to get >50, in effect they were worthless. but that's besides the point...

Are you sure about that? I've had games where a person watched the others' backs and kept me from getting a sword in mine while I was blissfully killing things in front of me not noticing the phantoms that had crept up (so yeah, usually asari adepts); some people always jump on the revives and missions and all of that... obviously killing is important, but it's not the only thing that matters. Distraction/mission time can also matter a lot. 

Plus, if a person gets 24 or 49 kills, does the game register that? What if they get 75 assists? Saying that a person couldn't hit 25 kills and that means they were worthless seems harsh. Maybe it's fair, though... granted, I can't recall ever not getting 25 kills, even on Gold. 

Modifié par Wynne, 29 mars 2012 - 07:40 .

[Aranha]

If your character and weapon isnt viable on gold... Wheres the motivation and diversity then?

[Father Alvito]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

That isn't, however, what I said. If things are brought into line to be competitive on gold, they will simply dominate silver. Right now the effective builds on gold make it a joke rather than provide a challenge, while everything else is pushed to one side. Bringing everything up to the standard of the current meta will make gold a breeze regardless of what people bring.

Here is the logic of your argument: Gold is hard if and only if people make bad loadout selections.  Therefore, we should not buff things that are presently bad selections, because then Gold will never be hard.

This misses the fact that the developers can alter the enemies in any difficulty, which you conveniently edited out of what you quoted.  The problem at present is that Gold isn't hard...as long as you run a narrow range of builds.  Making Gold hard and buffing the builds outside of the narrow range are not mutually exclusive.

 

[squidney2k1]

BNRasec wrote...

Gold is the standard. If you can't play it, get better or quit.

This.

Devs even said that Gold was the go-to during development, and Gold matches are the reason for the balance changes that we've seen so far (i.e. Geth & Atlas buffs, weapon buffs, etc).

[RestroomX]

Wynne wrote...

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

The things that make gold a walkover 

Please tell me what you are doing that makes Gold a walkover! Seriously. No sarcasm. I just started playing Gold the last few days and I'm curious. Cerberus with a vanguard/drell adept felt pretty hard, and I've often topped the charts with those characters on Silver. That has not been the case on Gold. 

Tell me how to own, o swami! (Goofy, but still not sarcastic.) I want to make back the million credits or so that I lost in the buggy store, so any sort of strategy recommendations are welcome. It's hard to go back to Silver once you see how many credits you get from succeeding at the mission in Wave 10.

hireuin wrote...

gold is stupidly easy if you have a team that knows what they're doing... so many gold game failures are because 1 or more player in the group couldn't even get 25 kills when you managed to get >50, in effect they were worthless. but that's besides the point...

Are you sure about that? I've had games where a person watched the others' backs and kept me from getting a sword in mine while I was blissfully killing things in front of me not noticing the phantoms that had crept up (so yeah, usually asari adepts); some people always jump on the revives and missions and all of that... obviously killing is important, but it's not the only thing that matters. Distraction/mission time can also matter a lot. 

Plus, if a person gets 24 or 49 kills, does the game register that? What if they get 75 assists? Saying that a person couldn't hit 25 kills and that means they were worthless seems harsh. Maybe it's fair, though... granted, I can't recall ever not getting 25 kills, even on Gold. 

good gold runs.

team vs  Geth.  All lvl 20 chars preferable (but not necessary)

Salarian Engineer  - keep decoy up, energy drain, incinerate
Quarian Infiltrator - cloak and snipe, sabotage
Turian Sentinel - overload spam, warp sometimes
 Krogan Soldier - carnage spam

team vs Reapers

Asari Adept - reset powers after combo - combo spam (warp, then throw combo, stasis when really needed)
Drell Adept - reave and more reave. biotic combo with asari.
Turian Sentinel - overload mauraders, warp bigger baddies. cover fire.
Salarian Infiltrator - snipe all the little guys, grab objectives.

team vs Cerberus

Asari Vanguard - stasis phantoms, max melee, shotgun, use charge to protect teammates only.
Salarian Infiltrator - Energy drain harder enemies, headshot the rest. objectives!
Turian Sentinel - Overload to help salarian or warp to help adept, watch flanks.
Asari Adept - stasis phantoms, combo everything else.

Other gold tips
-bring your best guns!!!
-bring your best equipment!!
-bring rockets!!
-stick together (unless you are slick enough to sneak with your infiltrator and get objectives)
-combos!!! tech or biotics, these are key for taking down bigger and shielded enemies fast. 
-use your headset! just saying...."they are on the left" is a big help.  Don't expect to beat gold with too many randoms either.

good luck!

[MartialArtsSurfer]

Wynne wrote...

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

The things that make gold a walkover 

Please tell me what you are doing that makes Gold a walkover! Seriously. No sarcasm. I just started playing Gold the last few days and I'm curious. Cerberus with a vanguard/drell adept felt pretty hard, and I've often topped the charts with those characters on Silver. That has not been the case on Gold. 

Tell me how to own, o swami! (Goofy, but still not sarcastic.) I want to make back the million credits or so that I lost in the buggy store, so any sort of strategy recommendations are welcome. It's hard to go back to Silver once you see how many credits you get from succeeding at the mission in Wave 10.

hireuin wrote...

gold is stupidly easy if you have a team that knows what they're doing... so many gold game failures are because 1 or more player in the group couldn't even get 25 kills when you managed to get >50, in effect they were worthless. but that's besides the point...

Are you sure about that? I've had games where a person watched the others' backs and kept me from getting a sword in mine while I was blissfully killing things in front of me not noticing the phantoms that had crept up (so yeah, usually asari adepts); some people always jump on the revives and missions and all of that... obviously killing is important, but it's not the only thing that matters. Distraction/mission time can also matter a lot. 

Plus, if a person gets 24 or 49 kills, does the game register that? What if they get 75 assists? Saying that a person couldn't hit 25 kills and that means they were worthless seems harsh. Maybe it's fair, though... granted, I can't recall ever not getting 25 kills, even on Gold. 

Wynne, good Gold strategy guides & game mechanics by helpful posters that will double your success rates at least & have you earning hundreds of thousands of credits per hour in my sig links below

Gold gives 70-75,000 credits per mission (about 20-25 minutes).. good incentive

Gold reveals nuances because every little bit matters.. on Bronze/Silver, you can afford to have crappy strategies, bad skill choices, bad weapon choices, & still survive.... if a game doesn't reward better strategies, intelliget choices, then it goes from a deep game (chess, strategy games, RPGs) to simple unbalanced CalvinBall or TicTacToe

Bronze/Silver is for messing around with crazy weapon & skill choices, like a fun pickup game of volleyball at the beach or flag football at a picnic

Gold is professional sports where you're playing for keeps-75,000 credits per mission or 150,000-225,000 credits per hour signing bonuses where every tiny statistic & detail, percentages, averages, etc matters (check out the stats page for any NBA, NFL, or MLB player

Modifié par MartialArtsSurfer, 29 mars 2012 - 08:45 .