229 réponses à ce sujet

[Captain_Crouton]

I can't believe this is even an argument. Obviously harder difficulties are going to point out flaws in classes so that they can be balanced.

I can solo Bronze as a soldier but I can barely hold my own on a TEAM as a soldier in Gold. The game obviously needs balancing and the hardest difficulty is the only way to obtain any concrete data on which classes are the most viable and which are not.

I don't know why people are calling it elitism, because it's not.

[stysiaq]

Silvair wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Gold with public lobbies is more and more doable. My completion rate on public gold matches is probably over 50% in the last few days as compared to 10% a week or so ago.

Gold is becoming the standard. Bronze and silver feel like super-easy and easy-mode rather than easy and normal...

Balancing around gold makes sense to me.

That is EXACTLY the problem here.  With people only focusing on gold...it's no longer hard, it's just "normal", and Bronze and Silver have become WAAAYYYY too easy.

Gold is supposed to be the "super-hard" mode.  It should not be getting easier to do.

Like last night, I played a Silver Reaper match with my friends.  Afterwards, one went "Wait....we just did Reapers on Silver with no problems.  That used to be a nightmare!"

As things are focused on becoming easier in Gold, that means that you are becoming godlike in Bronze and Silver.  That defeats the entire PURPOSE of having 3 difficulty levels.

Well, I just noticed the game really begins to be easier, and it's not mostly because of my skills increase for certain.

I usually avoid playing Gold like hell, because I practically never completed it (i play almost only public games). Now I just did 2 golden runs in a row, without even talking to my teammates (Giant vs Geth and White vs Cerberus).

I think that the team made it quite easy (I was a Salarian Engineer, the rest were Salarian Infiltrators in the first try, and 2 Salarian Infiltrators & Asari Vanguard in Cerberus match), and it wasn't a 20 minute rampage (more like 30 min each) but it still differed from my regular Gold run, which end on wave 7 or 8.

With that in mind I think Gold should be the standard, because every tweak there is also a tweak on Silver, and Bronze is a 'casual' difficulty.

I also would consider tweaking the card system. Guns viable on Silver and not viable on gold should be properly marked (not all golden or even black cards fall into this category), and so on. That would mean that almost all SMGs should have a bronze mark on their cards ;P

[TLK Spires]

zhk3r wrote...

I'm sorry, but no.. Gold is not hard. Get some friends together and work as a team (like intended) and Gold is easy. BioWare seriously needs to add further difficulties.

that's exactly how world of warcraft came to be. a couple of nerd masters tore through everything in everquest with their nerd sabers, so they kept nerd raging at the company to make things harder. eventually, one of the high-ranking nerds broke off and helped create wow. it started off as being damn near convoluted in terms of difficulty to advance (gear > skill, it could take over a year to get ONE piece of armor or a weapon because of how raids worked). over time, people complained, and it got easier and easier to a point of mind numbing stupidity. 

sometimes, you just gotta learn from history. fix the broken **** first, and THEN add new ****.

[stysiaq]

Captain_Crouton wrote...

I can't believe this is even an argument. Obviously harder difficulties are going to point out flaws in classes so that they can be balanced.

I can solo Bronze as a soldier but I can barely hold my own on a TEAM as a soldier in Gold. The game obviously needs balancing and the hardest difficulty is the only way to obtain any concrete data on which classes are the most viable and which are not.

I don't know why people are calling it elitism, because it's not.

I think that the fact that after 4th balance change SMGs still are a joke weapon (I heard Hornet is ok, but I have just 3rd rank of it, so I don't test it), and doing Gold is still mostly about snipers, heavy pistols and spamming powers add to it.

[Silvair]

niko20 wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

You can complete silver with any class against any faction and do very well if your skill is high enough.

The same does not apply to gold. *Cough* Krogan Vs Geth *Cough* *Cough*

and why should such a thing be viable? krograns meleeing things with uber armor? i mean it doesnt make sense. i just donr get this whole thing about weapons needing to be buffed because they suck on gold. of course they suck the enemies have tons more health/armor/shields! thats the point of gold! balancing weapons to work on gold would just make them overpowered on everything else. and then gold becomes the new silver . you just end up in a viscious cycle. 

It scares me how few people understand this.

If you buff weapons according to Gold, then Hard mode is no longer hard, and Normal mode is now a joke.  God forbid anyone remember that there was supposed to be an "Easy mode".

But if you tweak weapons and powers according to Normal mode, then the game becomes balanced, and Hard mode is still hard.  As it should be.
  
Why is this so hard to understand?

[GodlessPaladin]

Silvair wrote...

If you buff weapons according to Gold, then Hard mode is no longer hard, and Normal mode is now a joke.  God forbid anyone remember that there was supposed to be an "Easy mode".

I'm going to call you on your bull**** here.

If you buff weapons according to Gold, then Hard mode is *just as hard as it was before,* except that more builds are viable and a greater variety of characters and weapons are used.

Raising more options to the power level of the option that everybody uses to win already does not make the game easier than if anyone just used the one option than existed before... it just makes the game more diverse and interesting.

The reason for this (and the reason why your argument is severely logically flawed) is because people don't stack options to determine their effectiveness.  The true difficulty of hard is determined by the effectiveness of the MOST effective option.  Besides that, we're not talking about the difficulty of Gold... we're talking about the difficulty of self-imposed challenges, like soloing with the worst race and weapons that you can think of.

This is why buffing the Quarian Engineer didn't make gold easier, but changing the Quarian Infiltrator DID affect how many people could effectively run Gold.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 29 mars 2012 - 10:36 .

[Sabbatine]

Silvair wrote...

NOTHING is as it should be on Gold.  With gold, only a few things are "very" effective.

And most people don't play gold because of that.  They have to drop everything and just do the "most" effective.  Most weapons are pointless, most powers are pointless, because enemies are cranked up so high.


Please, stop using Gold as a point of reference for how weapons/powers should work.  It is an extreme, not the standard.

You seem to know very little about gold if you believe most weapons are pointless.

[Silvair]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Silvair wrote...

If you buff weapons according to Gold, then Hard mode is no longer hard, and Normal mode is now a joke.  God forbid anyone remember that there was supposed to be an "Easy mode".

I'm going to call you on your bull**** here.

If you buff weapons according to Gold, then Hard mode is *just as hard as it was before,* except that more builds are viable and a greater variety of characters and weapons are used.

Raising more options to the power level of the option that everybody uses to win already does not make the game easier than if anyone just used the one option than existed before... it just makes the game more diverse and interesting.

The reason for this (and the reason why your argument is severely logically flawed) is because people don't stack options to determine their effectiveness.  The true difficulty of hard is determined by the effectiveness of the MOST effective option.  Besides that, we're not talking about the difficulty of Gold... we're talking about the difficulty of self-imposed challenges, like soloing with the worst race and weapons that you can think of.

This is why buffing the Quarian Engineer didn't make gold easier, but changing the Quarian Infiltrator DID affect how many people could effectively run Gold.

You missed the point entirely.

If things affect Gold in the slightest, then they GREATLY affect Bronze and Silver.  And making Silver, supposed to be the "average" into supereasy by buffing weapons to accomodate Gold, again, defeats the entire purpose of having 3 difficulty levels.

They either need to add a difficulty past Gold (Platinum?) or stop focusing on Gold.

Gold is supposed to be supremely hard.  Silver is supposed to be the norm.  By focusing on Gold, they make Gold the norm, and Silver the easy.  This should not be.

Way I see it...they either need to start nerfing all powers and weapons, or buffing the enemies to balance things out again.

[bloodDragon80]

Sabbatine wrote...

Silvair wrote...

NOTHING is as it should be on Gold.  With gold, only a few things are "very" effective.

And most people don't play gold because of that.  They have to drop everything and just do the "most" effective.  Most weapons are pointless, most powers are pointless, because enemies are cranked up so high.


Please, stop using Gold as a point of reference for how weapons/powers should work.  It is an extreme, not the standard.

You seem to know very little about gold if you believe most weapons are pointless.

according to the ancient texts of ME3 gold difficulty the carnifex is the all seeing all doing god of everything and if you even think of using something different Elitus the god of varietyless will smite you.

[Silvair]

Sabbatine wrote...

Silvair wrote...

NOTHING is as it should be on Gold.  With gold, only a few things are "very" effective.

And most people don't play gold because of that.  They have to drop everything and just do the "most" effective.  Most weapons are pointless, most powers are pointless, because enemies are cranked up so high.


Please, stop using Gold as a point of reference for how weapons/powers should work.  It is an extreme, not the standard.

You seem to know very little about gold if you believe most weapons are pointless.

I use the Widow. I consider ALL other weapons pointless, lol.

[Silvair]

bloodDragon80 wrote...

Sabbatine wrote...

Silvair wrote...

NOTHING is as it should be on Gold.  With gold, only a few things are "very" effective.

And most people don't play gold because of that.  They have to drop everything and just do the "most" effective.  Most weapons are pointless, most powers are pointless, because enemies are cranked up so high.


Please, stop using Gold as a point of reference for how weapons/powers should work.  It is an extreme, not the standard.

You seem to know very little about gold if you believe most weapons are pointless.

according to the ancient texts of ME3 gold difficulty the carnifex is the all seeing all doing god of everything and if you even think of using something different Elitus the god of varietyless will smite you.

HA! I like that!

[killacwalka3]

If it works on Gold, it works on both silver and bronze. Might not be as efficient as other builds, but will always be effective. You can't say this for the builds that don't work on gold.

[niko20]

I still think you will end up in a neverending cycle if you buff things to work in gold, then basically silver and bronze become so easy, that gold becomes the new "silver". And so on, and so on, etc. Gold is supposed to kick your ass home to mama. If only certain weapons work, well then that's the way it is. Because you are trying to shoot peas at highly armored enemies, what do you expect to happen?

The argument about teamwork has no bearing on the OP's original post, in that he was stating that weapons and balance should not all just focus on Gold. Teamwork has nothing to do with this, but some are bringing teamwork into the argument and saying if you have good teamwork right now you can defeat gold even with Avenger X's. In fact by stating such you are proving the OP correct!

-niko

Modifié par niko20, 29 mars 2012 - 10:59 .

[Silvair]

killacwalka3 wrote...

If it works on Gold, it works on both silver and bronze. Might not be as efficient as other builds, but will always be effective. You can't say this for the builds that don't work on gold.

Kay, again, missing the point.

1)  All builds "work on gold."

2)  Nothing should just be "working on gold".  It's supposed to be the Hard mode.  You are supposed to be constantly running out of ammo and struggling the whole dang way.

3)  If something "works on gold", then it dominates silver.  THAT is the real issue here.

[Silvair]

niko20 wrote...

I still think you will end up in a neverending cycle if you buff things to work in gold, then basically silver and bronze become so easy, that gold becomes the new "silver". And so on, and so on, etc. Gold is supposed to kick your ass home to mama. If only certain weapons work, well then that's the way it is. Because you are trying to shoot peas at highly armored enemies, what do you expect to happen?

The argument about teamwork has no bearing on the OP's original post, in that he was stating that weapons and balance should not all just focus on Gold. Teamwork has nothing to do with this, but some are bringing teamwork into the argument and saying if you have good teamwork right now you can defeat gold even with Avenger X's. In fact by stating such you are proving the OP correct!

-niko

THANK YOU!

+10 whatevers

[We Tigers]

I mentioned this on the last page, but I'll mention it again: the easiest way to "balance for gold" without deeply affecting the gameplay experience on other levels may be simpler than "you have to strengthen ability X or gun Y." Modify the 100% damage gate to allow for more spill if you think single shot weapons need to be improved on gold; modify the built-in damage resistance on armor to be a percentage instead of a fixed 50 points per shot if you think rapid fire weapons need to be improved on gold.

[Silvair]

We Tigers wrote...

I mentioned this on the last page, but I'll mention it again: the easiest way to "balance for gold" without deeply affecting the gameplay experience on other levels may be simpler than "you have to strengthen ability X or gun Y." Modify the 100% damage gate to allow for more spill if you think single shot weapons need to be improved on gold; modify the built-in damage resistance on armor to be a percentage instead of a fixed 50 points per shot if you think rapid fire weapons need to be improved on gold.

true, but that might require an overhaul of the whole system, if I'm understanding you correctly.

People just need to realize that you ARE only supposed to bring a few select superweapons into Hard Mode.  That's the idea of it.  Buffing the other weapons just makes the regular modes too easy, so that Gold HAS to be the regular mode to provide any challenge or fun.

They just need to balance for silver instead of Gold, and I'm pretty sure that would solve a lot of problems.

[Nocturnalfox]

Silvair wrote...

Trakarg wrote...

So, what, should we use bronze as a standard? Lol.

Bronze is the other extreme.  use silver, because it's the average, the standard.

Bronze is easy
Silver is normal
Gold is hard.

You never use Easy or Hard as points of reference, because they are variations of the standard, Normal.

Silver is not normal, it is bronze with a new colouring.
Gold is everything 

[killacwalka3]

Silvair wrote...

killacwalka3 wrote...

If it works on Gold, it works on both silver and bronze. Might not be as efficient as other builds, but will always be effective. You can't say this for the builds that don't work on gold.

Kay, again, missing the point.

1)  All builds "work on gold."

2)  Nothing should just be "working on gold".  It's supposed to be the Hard mode.  You are supposed to be constantly running out of ammo and struggling the whole dang way.

3)  If something "works on gold", then it dominates silver.  THAT is the real issue here.

Decoy and biotic explosions and chain overload don't run out of ammo. This is Mass Effect, not Call of Duty. Powers do more DPS and AOE than most guns. They buff guns so soldier and more gun oriented builds are more viable for gold.

Silver was easy from the start if speced right. Now that people that suck at specing classes and play CoD style have better gear, they are not as much of a liability, and this makes things easier on everyone. The rebalancing for gold is not the primary reason silver is getting easier. The noobs have better gear now so they suck less. The buffs allow less ideal builds to be more viable on gold and also move to silver earlier.

Once you hit around level 12 you should be on silver with most classes and 17 or 18 for gold anyway.

[Darkslayer557]

Silvair wrote...

niko20 wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

You can complete silver with any class against any faction and do very well if your skill is high enough.

The same does not apply to gold. *Cough* Krogan Vs Geth *Cough* *Cough*

and why should such a thing be viable? krograns meleeing things with uber armor? i mean it doesnt make sense. i just donr get this whole thing about weapons needing to be buffed because they suck on gold. of course they suck the enemies have tons more health/armor/shields! thats the point of gold! balancing weapons to work on gold would just make them overpowered on everything else. and then gold becomes the new silver . you just end up in a viscious cycle. 

It scares me how few people understand this.

If you buff weapons according to Gold, then Hard mode is no longer hard, and Normal mode is now a joke.  God forbid anyone remember that there was supposed to be an "Easy mode".

But if you tweak weapons and powers according to Normal mode, then the game becomes balanced, and Hard mode is still hard.  As it should be.
  
Why is this so hard to understand?

Because you're wrong.
Say there is 1 weapon that's really good in gold and all the rest suck. Then everyone will use that weapon. Then they buffed all the other weapon to the same level with that weapon. Then everyone will use whatever weapon they want. See the difficulty of the before and after are the same because no weapon is better than the weapon everyone uses before, but the difference is the variety of the weapon people use.
Why don't you get this?

Modifié par Darkslayer557, 29 mars 2012 - 11:54 .

[SpaceXDebris]

Abael wrote...

To the point of the post, i don't think the game should be balanced around gold, they should tweak gold obviously to make more classes/weapons viable there but center on silver when thinking about overall game balance.

Thank you. There seems to be a lot of miscommunication around balance 1) between players and enemies (i.e. game difficulty) and 2) between different classes / weapons.

[Silvair]

Darkslayer557 wrote...

Silvair wrote...

niko20 wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

You can complete silver with any class against any faction and do very well if your skill is high enough.

The same does not apply to gold. *Cough* Krogan Vs Geth *Cough* *Cough*

and why should such a thing be viable? krograns meleeing things with uber armor? i mean it doesnt make sense. i just donr get this whole thing about weapons needing to be buffed because they suck on gold. of course they suck the enemies have tons more health/armor/shields! thats the point of gold! balancing weapons to work on gold would just make them overpowered on everything else. and then gold becomes the new silver . you just end up in a viscious cycle. 

It scares me how few people understand this.

If you buff weapons according to Gold, then Hard mode is no longer hard, and Normal mode is now a joke.  God forbid anyone remember that there was supposed to be an "Easy mode".

But if you tweak weapons and powers according to Normal mode, then the game becomes balanced, and Hard mode is still hard.  As it should be.
  
Why is this so hard to understand?

Because you're wrong.
Say there is 1 weapon that's really good in gold and all the rest suck. Then everyone will use that weapon. Then they buffed all the other weapon to the same level with that weapon. Then everyone will use whatever weapon they want. See the difficulty of the before and after are the same because no weapon is better than the weapon everyone uses before, but the difference is the variety of the weapon people use.
Why don't you get this?

Well, considering that "one weapon" was supposed to be a SUPERWEAPON, no, I'm still right.

Buffing everything else into being a superweapon brings us back to my original point.

If
you want to play with anything you want, don't be playing on Gold,
where you need to be geared with the best of the best, because its
frikkin GOLD. (Not that I'm talking about weapons.  Any class still works on gold.)

This is exactly my point.  People are whining they don't get to casually pick any weapon they want on Hard mode, which means that weapons will be buffed so Gold is reduced to "normal" mode, and because all the NORMAL weapons are buffed up, they totally skewer Silver.  Whole thing keeps getting thrown off balance.

Silver is the norm, the standard by which most people play.  Gold is the specialized extreme that only a minority participate in.  Hence why I'm saying that Silver should be the basis for things, not Gold.

[jimmyw404]

Hyunsai wrote...

Silver will always be a challenge if the vast majority of the games are pick up and random teams.

And if you've got no friends available to play this game, you can just forget Gold.

Hard to balance something played by an extreme minority of people.

I pug gold and have around an 80% success rate on it. Your argument is invalid.

[TexasToast712]

 On the hardest difficulty in ANY game. 90% of all the gear is supposed to be almost useless. The hardest difficulty is supposed to make you think about what you use and how you use it. OP is right. Gold is NOT the standard and shouldn't be what everything is balanced around.

This is why you never take a Avenger on Insanity or use a AR on a Halo Legendary campaign although these weapons are perfectly viable on normal/hardcore because the enemies aren't on steroids. Some guns are simply meant to be better than others. The sooner these morons learn that the better.

Modifié par TexasToast712, 30 mars 2012 - 01:24 .

[zephuurs]

TexasToast712 wrote...

 On the hardest difficulty in ANY game. 90% of all the gear is supposed to be almost useless. The hardest difficulty is supposed to make you think about what you use and how you use it. OP is right. Gold is NOT the standard and shouldn't be what everything is balanced around.

This is why you never take a Avenger on Insanity or use a AR on a Halo Legendary campaign although these weapons are perfectly viable on normal/hardcore because the enemies aren't on steroids. Some guns are simply meant to be better than others. The sooner these morons learn that the better. 

Ah I see, so only one specific time of build/weapon/asari adept/salarian infiltrator should work. Makes perfect sense.

/Sigh

Modifié par zephuurs, 30 mars 2012 - 01:26 .