233 réponses à ce sujet

[Zenon]

xguild wrote...

Zenon wrote...


Banning display of nudity or sex from any media, especially games, won't reduce the number of teenagers becoming pregnant. Banning violence from games won't reduce the violence or high-school shootings either. These are just prejudices and initiatives taken by politicians not caring about the real cause, but wanting to appear righteous and good to their voters.

That's quite an interesting hypothesis, but you should be aware that studies have proven that there is a link to both and while there are certainly studies that can be used to dispute this to say it with so much confidence is a bit naive.  The truth is that no one has really proven it one way or the other so whether or not violance and sex in media has any impact on society is still a question that needs to be answered.

I don't know any scientific studies concerning sex, but I read a lot about the "Killergames" discussion in Germany. There is a variety of studies out there, and to make the long story short the results are not homogenous. Perhaps you can find a statistic with positive correlation between playing violent games and violent behaviour. But then again, it should be considered, if the person preferring violent games doesn't already have a violent personality to begin with? Maybe violent games can increase violent tendencies, but they do not cause them. If it were so, then considering how many kids enjoy all sorts of 1st person shooters we should have shootings at high-schools every day.

I admit, that playing games or consuming violent movies may be loosely related to behaviour and can enhance tendencies in a weak character. But I strictly speak against such media inspiring a peaceful peson to randomly massacre innocent people. There is nothing to proove such a ridiculous statement.

Given that fact, it behoves us to as society to heir on the side of caution, after all, there is no impact on a child when he doesn't watch violance and sex, so it can be said that by avoiding it you are avoiding a potential problem.  I have kids and I can tell you that when i'm unsure about something, its best to be cautious and protect your kids.

We are still talking about a mature rated game, which should not be seen or played by minors anyway. Just because some adults or even parents give a damn about what their children or brothes/sisters get exposed to, doesn't justify censoring adult content.

You mention Bowling for Columbine and I think the interesting thing about that movie is that shortly after it was released people where getting in fist fights at the theaters in heated discussions about the movie.  Hence you could say that it was responisble for violance.

As far as I heard in the US one person got shot by another for "stealing" a parking space at a supermarket. There are crazy people out there. Indirectly the movie caused the violence, because it stirred up strong emotions. But the movie itself wasn't about violence itself, but a report on the possible and likely cause of it. Did you watch the movie actually? It actually unmasks the (in the movie) claimed fact/thesis, that a majority of US-American society seems dominated by fear and suppressed aggression and being armed. Maybe some pride was hurt along the way?!

Modifié par Zenon, 02 décembre 2009 - 02:39 .

[Kimberly Shaw]

It would be a great world if violence were more censored than sex, but blame Puritan Americans for it. Barf. Personally I'd kind of like to keep both, I like the beheadings kill animation.

[whtnyte-raernst]

Because it gives politicians the ability to look like they are doing something, without actually doing anything. Tipper Gore started it with her "explicit lyrics" labels that in the end, only sold more music.

[Zenon]

When I feel angry it is a better and healthier way to get relief by shooting pixels than humans, isn't it?

[Luis Grizzly]

its a game guys...I am sure they didnt include all out cartoon porn scenes for a good reason. the blood and gore just goes along with the game because its a dark fantasy. fallout 3 was an awesome, bloody, gory game and I dont remember any sex scenes in it. fable II was violent as well (blowing peoples heads off with 1 shot from rifle, sword decapitations and more). The only problem I have right now with the game is that you can't keep playing after finishing the final boss. we need a version of broken steel but for DA: O. ^

Modifié par Luis Grizzly, 02 décembre 2009 - 02:44 .

[Sibelius1]

Tominokar wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

The US is not Europe, it is much more demographically diverse

This amused me. It's incredibly naive to suggest your own country that is only 200 years old is more diverse than 50 countries put together, some thousands of years old. France alone has 77 regional languages and dozens of native ethnic groups, let alone the 8% of its population from non-European cultures. The sects of the Christian Church are also much more numerous and evenly distributed in Europe, along with other non-Christian religions.

So you cannot possibly blame the prudishness of the American public on its 'diverse demography'. If anything, it's the complete opposite- the lack of cultural diversity that causes intolerance for anything out of the mainstream 'nudity and sex must stay hidden' attitude of the conservative Christian majority.

Great post Tominokar, could not have put it better myself.

As has been said before, trying to hide the "evil" that is sex and minimise it's media exposure to it has the exact opposite effect to that which it is trying to achieve.

It makes sex more mysterious, and more tempting, because by and large human nature dictates that you want what you can't have.

Proper education and anonymous provision of contraception are the only things that will reduce teenage pregnancies, not removing sex from a game, or from any other media for that matter.
 
 

 

[LichtVonWahrheit]

The teen pregnacy rates are higher among:
Those with less education (Lower socioeconomic status).
Fundamentalist religious groups (Abstinence only education).
Those with low self esteem (Obesity rates correlate with teenage pregnacy rates in industrial nations).

Because society views sex as taboo, many people feel ashamed of doing it or thinking of doing it, and thus they don't go out and buy contraceptives. Instead, sex happens unprepared in 'chance' encounters, increasing risk of pregnancy.

It isn't because of liberials, video games, movies, books, or atheists. In fact, the USA has the highest rate of STDs and teenage pregnancy of industrial nations. What else is it highest in of industrial nations? Puritans. These are statistics, not opinions.

[Luis Grizzly]

lol internet is serious business. I'm gonna go enjoy DA:O while you guys sit here arguing about countries and religions.

[ZeroPlan]

Luis Grizzly wrote...

lol internet is serious business. I'm gonna go enjoy DA:O while you guys sit here arguing about countries and religions.

Youre free to do that, like them to discuss. That's one of the greatest advantages of the internet. You can play, consume music, videos, learn, be creative or discuss with people from all over the world. The more they discuss the more it is likely, that they get a better understanding of each other.

[Aesir Rising]

LichtVonWahrheit wrote...

The teen pregnacy rates are higher among:
Those with less education (Lower socioeconomic status).
Fundamentalist religious groups (Abstinence only education).
Those with low self esteem (Obesity rates correlate with teenage pregnacy rates in industrial nations).

Because society views sex as taboo, many people feel ashamed of doing it or thinking of doing it, and thus they don't go out and buy contraceptives. Instead, sex happens unprepared in 'chance' encounters, increasing risk of pregnancy.

It isn't because of liberials, video games, movies, books, or atheists. In fact, the USA has the highest rate of STDs and teenage pregnancy of industrial nations. What else is it highest in of industrial nations? Puritans. These are statistics, not opinions.

That's a fair illustration of why statistics need to be put into a context, or they become misleading (if not untruthful).  The US is also highest in automobiles per capita.  Perhaps it's the ready access to back seats that lead to its higher rates of teenage pregnancy and STDs.

There are three kinds of lies.  Lies.  Damned lies.  And Statistics.

Modifié par Aesir Rising, 02 décembre 2009 - 03:00 .

[h0style]

I dunno, but kudos to BioWare for adding both men and women to the choice list in the brothel for either men or woman... even beastiality... lol

[h0style]

Zenon wrote...

xguild wrote...

Zenon wrote...


Banning display of nudity or sex from any media, especially games, won't reduce the number of teenagers becoming pregnant. Banning violence from games won't reduce the violence or high-school shootings either. These are just prejudices and initiatives taken by politicians not caring about the real cause, but wanting to appear righteous and good to their voters.

That's quite an interesting hypothesis, but you should be aware that studies have proven that there is a link to both and while there are certainly studies that can be used to dispute this to say it with so much confidence is a bit naive.  The truth is that no one has really proven it one way or the other so whether or not violance and sex in media has any impact on society is still a question that needs to be answered.

I don't know any scientific studies concerning sex, but I read a lot about the "Killergames" discussion in Germany. There is a variety of studies out there, and to make the long story short the results are not homogenous. Perhaps you can find a statistic with positive correlation between playing violent games and violent behaviour. But then again, it should be considered, if the person preferring violent games doesn't already have a violent personality to begin with? Maybe violent games can increase violent tendencies, but they do not cause them. If it were so, then considering how many kids enjoy all sorts of 1st person shooters we should have shootings at high-schools every day.

I admit, that playing games or consuming violent movies may be loosely related to behaviour and can enhance tendencies in a weak character. But I strictly speak against such media inspiring a peaceful peson to randomly massacre innocent people. There is nothing to proove such a ridiculous statement.

Given that fact, it behoves us to as society to heir on the side of caution, after all, there is no impact on a child when he doesn't watch violance and sex, so it can be said that by avoiding it you are avoiding a potential problem.  I have kids and I can tell you that when i'm unsure about something, its best to be cautious and protect your kids.

We are still talking about a mature rated game, which should not be seen or played by minors anyway. Just because some adults or even parents give a damn about what their children or brothes/sisters get exposed to, doesn't justify censoring adult content.

You mention Bowling for Columbine and I think the interesting thing about that movie is that shortly after it was released people where getting in fist fights at the theaters in heated discussions about the movie.  Hence you could say that it was responisble for violance.

As far as I heard in the US one person got shot by another for "stealing" a parking space at a supermarket. There are crazy people out there. Indirectly the movie caused the violence, because it stirred up strong emotions. But the movie itself wasn't about violence itself, but a report on the possible and likely cause of it. Did you watch the movie actually? It actually unmasks the (in the movie) claimed fact/thesis, that a majority of US-American society seems dominated by fear and suppressed aggression and being armed. Maybe some pride was hurt along the way?!

Holy Christ, I dunno how this topic turned into people referencing US citizens shooting each other over parking spaces at the supermarket... lol.... totally uncivilized!

[thegreateski]

Because sometimes violence is the only thing that works.


"Should I remark on the weather as I tap that ass?"
-Sten







Edit: and get that U.S. vs Europe stupidity out of here.

Modifié par thegreateski, 02 décembre 2009 - 03:08 .

[Sylixe]

Creature 1 wrote...

There's already a billion page thread on this topic.

My opinion is that sex in the US is frequently problematic--we have pretty high rates of STDs and some are increasing, and we have a high teen pregnancy rate. Violent crime, contrary to the opinions of many outside viewers, is not a problem for most Americans. Your kid is more likely to end up pregnant/get someone else pregnant than to commit aggravated assault. So there's more concern about sexual themes in entertainment than violence.

Some European nations without our problems with teen pregnancy and so forth think this is totally unreasonable, I think they're an illustration of the proverb, "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail." The US is not Europe, it is much more demographically diverse, and because of this has social problems that Europe doesn't have to deal with. What works for European nations does not necessarily work for the US.

Because making sure Sex education and prevention isn't allowed in schools is a great idea.  When talking to your child about sex is more taboo than talking to them about smoking an herb.  Violence is going to exist no matter what you do or where you live.  It's mans one genic flaw that has carried through the ages that we are a violent aggressive species. 

[-Area51-Silent]

Its interesting that it has been brought up throughout this thread that teen pregnancy/STD's are the bigger problem in this country than violent crime, however games and media with hyper violence and criminal acts are more common. I think what's not being understood is the fact that the more you try to make an act "forbidden" and sensor it from all media the more people will want said thing.



I've had this discussion in a Constitutional Law class back in my undergraduate years, and I just have yet to get a good answer, but why is extreme violence less offensive in society than sex? or a boob for that matter? I think its really silly and I tend to agree with the over reactions people have. If you go to the other thread you will find the arguments people have tried to make, and most agree they havn't a foot to stand on.



And for where you should classify me, I am American, Christian and Conservative (In terms of what it actually means not what its been twisted to mean). When you classify whos fault it is just put it under "stupid people" thats what I do.

[Phalzyr]

Kalcalan wrote...

People who actually state that sex is considered to be bad may have a point when you take into account Desire Demons. The overt sexuality of these succubi is a clear sign of their evilness. Even more so since the game lists demon types based on the seven sins. Ergo sex is bad.

Not to belittle your point but The Desire Demon is not about sex, it is about desire . yes sex can be something someone desires but more often than not a person desires happiness. Sex doesn't even have to be part of that "happiness". Ergo happiness is bad?  The point would be fake happiness or in sex terms being a player is bad... Desire sex, Sex is just one of many desires.

Everyone: As far as religion goes I'm not sure how they could have an issue with it, we aren't the ones having sex... Seeing someone commit a sin isn't a sin... Now the desire to see the sin could be seen as sin, but then that desire exists regardless of the game being made or not... How people take the exposure is the sin not it being present.

 The higher ups in America tend to believe (not saying I agree) that someone watching/playing violence is less likely to go out and do it than someone watching/playing nudity and sex. They believe restricting the amount of sex to be more prevelant due to that. It is also about addiction, seeing porn people can more likely want to see more and more and even transpose that into real life as sexual harrassment or worse, whereas violence is something only mental people get addicted to/want to do just becasue they see it a lot. 

Modifié par Phalzyr, 02 décembre 2009 - 03:28 .

[Sylixe]

Phalzyr wrote...

Kalcalan wrote...

People who actually state that sex is considered to be bad may have a point when you take into account Desire Demons. The overt sexuality of these succubi is a clear sign of their evilness. Even more so since the game lists demon types based on the seven sins. Ergo sex is bad.

Not to belittle your point but The Desire Demon is not about sex, it is about desire . yes sex can be something someone desires but more often than not a person desires happiness. Sex doesn't even have to be part of that "happiness". Ergo happiness is bad?  The point would be fake happiness or in sex terms being a player is bad... Desire sex, Sex is just one of many desires.

Everyone: As far as religion goes I'm not sure how they could have an issue with it, we aren't the ones having sex... Seeing someone commit a sin isn't a sin... Now the desire to see the sin could be seen as sin, but then that desire exists regardless of the game being made or not... How people take the exposure is the sin not it being present.

 The higher ups in America tend to believe (not saying I agree) that someone watching/playing violence is less likely to go out and do it than someone watching/playing nudity and sex. They believe restricting the amount of sex to be more prevelant due to that. It is also about addiction, seeing porn people can more likely want to see more and more and even transpose that into real life as sexual harrassment or worse, whereas violence is something only mental people get addicted to/want to do just becasue they see it a lot. 

I would love to see them explain the 10+ million addcits playing WoW than.

[DarthKaldriss]

Psychoray wrote...

TripedWire wrote...

Personally I have no problem with either and it baffles me why some people are all 'OMG sex! gayelfsex BAN THIS FILTH!!' whilst barely batting an eyelid at the hyperviolence throughout the game.
Amidst the endless bloody beheadings, eviscerations, impalements, exploding guts and all sorts of **** flying arond theres a little bump and grind and people get ofended? by that?

I give no ****s, that is retarded.

America.

Seconded.

[Kaosgirl]

Creature 1 wrote...

There's already a billion page thread on this topic.

It's been side-tracked by an argument about whether the current rating system allows parents to make an informed choice or not.

Creature 1 wrote...
My opinion is that sex in the US is frequently problematic--we have pretty high rates of STDs and some are increasing, and we have a high teen pregnancy rate. Violent crime, contrary to the opinions of many outside viewers, is not a problem for most Americans. Your kid is more likely to end up pregnant/get someone else pregnant than to commit aggravated assault. So there's more concern about sexual themes in entertainment than violence.

Some European nations without our problems with teen pregnancy and so forth think this is totally unreasonable, I think they're an illustration of the proverb, "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail." The US is not Europe, it is much more demographically diverse, and because of this has social problems that Europe doesn't have to deal with. What works for European nations does not necessarily work for the US.

While I can understand how that "demographic diversity" bears on the issue of violent crime, which is where it's usually trotted out, I don't quite see how it's relevant to the issue of teen sexuality.  Does having sex with a visible minority increase one's odds of getting pregnant or picking up an STD?

[-Area51-Silent]

yes it has, by people looking for excuses.

[pathenry]

Kaosgirl wrote...
While I can understand how that "demographic diversity" bears on the issue of violent crime, which is where it's usually trotted out, I don't quite see how it's relevant to the issue of teen sexuality.  Does having sex with a visible minority increase one's odds of getting pregnant or picking up an STD?

Of picking up an STD, yes.

[Creature 1]

Tominokar wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

The US is not Europe, it is much more demographically diverse

This amused me. It's incredibly naive to suggest your own country that is only 200 years old is more diverse than 50 countries put together, some thousands of years old. France alone has 77 regional languages and dozens of native ethnic groups, let alone the 8% of its population from non-European cultures. The sects of the Christian Church are also much more numerous and evenly distributed in Europe, along with other non-Christian religions.

So you cannot possibly blame the prudishness of the American public on its 'diverse demography'. If anything, it's the complete opposite- the lack of cultural diversity that causes intolerance for anything out of the mainstream 'nudity and sex must stay hidden' attitude of the conservative Christian majority.

That is laughable.  People of non-European origin make up maybe 3-4% of the population of Europe, and racial diversity is extremely low in many European nations.  In the US 25% of people are from racial minorities, split approximately equally between black people and Hispanic people, plus some Asians and American Indians.  The cultural differences between the majority and the black and Hispanic minorities are much greater than the difference between two minor ethnic groups in Europe that have coexisted for centuries.  Maybe it would help to realize that blacks in American experienced inequality approaching the level of that experienced by the Jews in Germany in World War 2 and dragged out over a few centuries.  Does any other group in Europe have that kind of recent history? 

Again, with religion, in most of Europe Catholicism dominates, and Europeans are religiously insipid compared to Americans, with a greater percentage of people who just see church as a social group, or don't practice a religion at all.  It's not hard to not have religious conflicts when most people nominally possess the same religion and don't really think it's that important anyway. 

Additionally, you can't say, "We're diverse, because the people in the next country over speak a different language."  You have to look within the country, down to the level of cities.  The presence of Quebec up north does not cause crime in New York City.  The demographics of New York City are the cause of the crime in New York City. 

France is the country with the greatest racial diversity in Europe, and, unsurprisingly, also the country with the most problems with civil unrest.  France has a growing minority population, and their situation is more analogous to the situation in America because there are significant cultural differences between the majority and minority, as well as differences in affluence, education, and employment opportunities. 

Will France experience an increase in teen pregnancies and STD transmission along with the increase in demographic diversity, and thus move towards a more prudish approach towards sexuality?  Since the minority group immigrating into France is mostly Islamic, my *guess* is probably not unless the immigrants leave Islam over time, and then unless the problems of poverty and lack of job opportunities are solved France will probably see an increase in teen pregnancies in this minority. 

The rest of Europe had better pay attention to the situation in France, because increased immigration into all of Europe could lead to more social problems in other countries if poverty and education are not addressed. 

[Creature 1]

Kaosgirl wrote...

While I can understand how that "demographic diversity" bears on the issue of violent crime, which is where it's usually trotted out, I don't quite see how it's relevant to the issue of teen sexuality.  Does having sex with a visible minority increase one's odds of getting pregnant or picking up an STD?

I'm not sure what your question is.  It's an issue because minorities have high rates of teen pregnancy, single motherhood, and STDs.  All of these things are bad *for the minority*, so it would be great to fix them, if only we knew how.  Yes, things like STDs can be established in a minority and then spread to the majority, but the disproportionate impact of these upon the minority are more of a motivation in correcting the problem than protecting the majority. 

[TheOpposite]

I don't even understand how there can be a debate on the issue. Why can't Bioware or any other developer put whatever content they want in their product? Why can't me and my wife make informed decisions about what we play and what we allow our children to play. Do opponents of "sex" really want to throw people in jail for creating a game with a sex scene in it? What is the argument?

[DragonRageGT]

Zenon wrote...

I still keep wondering why the head of a decapitated enemy seems to evaporate before even touching the ground. I don't ask to be able to play football with it, mind you. Could be just lying around somewhere instead of just the corpse before all decomposes or vanishes quickly.

As for the erotic/nudity part of the post I would like to mention, that this question has been heavily discussed elsewhere. As long as there are sexophobiacs pulling strings to cause bad publicity or even a ban on a game in some countries, this is a touchy subject with game development. Then again it could have been a decision to focus on the romantic part more, than on the sex part, knowing there are games with more nudity available.

I can play football with heads in Fable!!! And with chickens too!!! Awesome!

Risen's been banned in Australia because it has ****s and weed. (Generic weed, not narcotic necessarily but that's not how they saw it.)

At the same time, The Witcher, where I can become a pimp and snore some really powerful Fistech, HAS NOT!

Talk about crazy countries and their crazy laws... (or just plain bribery and corruption)