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Why is sex taboo when cutting a dudes head off is not?


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#101
Creature 1

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BomimoDK wrote...
sorry, but that was a massive mouth dump you just delivered there. american culture is the common love of independence and freedom for the individual.
america's culture contains extreme amounts of individualims, often on the border of egoism. the health care program struck a nerve at egoists since that would mean  A/ it's gonna cost me 100$ extra a month and b/ do you, this is communism. (in fact it's just socialism and it does no harm, but anything benifiting the public that isn't thought out by an american is the product of something else, and since the concept is the greater good of all, all the egoists cry "COMMUNISM" and tell "**** NO!!!".
america says that they're about freedom for all. but they show us that this freedom only applies to middle/upper class and this freedom better **** off if it was to ever cost you some luxury.

american culture exists, and it leaves the whole world around it confused and dumbfound at how hypocritic it actually is.


While placing a high value on independence and liberty has been part of American culture and is sadly becoming less so, it is not the total sum of American culture.  If it were that simple, sociologists would have nothing to do.  That's like saying Chinese culture is collectivism.  There are some commonalities but also a large number of differences. 

#102
Zenon

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Creature 1 wrote...

Zenon wrote...
[b]And about the Jews: You Americans should be careful with accusations. What did you do to native Americans (called "Indians" by Columbus in error) in your own country? Stealing their land, doing many cruel brutal acts towards them, killing entire tribes, bringing them close to extinction like a genocide? The rest of them basically live like animals in a zoo called reservation! How many native Americans are anywhere successful in the US? Very, very few. Much less than former native Africans. Also interesting to note, that in the US seem to be more N*z*s than nowadays in Germany. You should stop your analogies right there! I resent what was done to the Jews in WW2, but using it in a discussion like this is abominable.

I see reading comprehension is not your forte. 


I quote your post: "Maybe it would help to realize that blacks in American experienced inequality approaching the level of that experienced by the Jews in Germany in World War 2 and dragged out over a few centuries.  Does any other group in Europe have that kind of recent history? "

Maybe in the Islam cases of teenage pregnancies are better hidden? Oh I forgot to consider, that in some countries a girl having premarital sex is being brutally murdered by her own siblings to protect the family's honor. Well, probably that solves many social problems, doesn't it?

Again, reading comprehension.  Honor killings are a societal problem, not a solution. 


Interesting that you say that while not understanding my post yourself. In psychology we call that projection. Anyway, you seem to be immune to irony.

Of course honor kills are a societal challenge. Who am I to judge the culture of other people, who think it's justified? But to do that in most western countries including Germany it's against the law. Besides I resent such honor kills as well. People committing such crimes should be sent back to their original country immediately along with their whole family.

Modifié par Zenon, 02 décembre 2009 - 07:19 .


#103
blondesolid

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Jassper wrote...

Direbrute wrote...

Blame those pesky Christians.


It has little to do with Christians, but more so with the obscured views of the Christian faith.


My head just imploded.

#104
Sylixe

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pathenry wrote...

Sylixe wrote...
Good luck ever getting that game into circulation or carried in store by anyone.  They exert more power and influence over things that you imagine.


True, but my copy of the Constitution doesn't say a private company like Wal-mart has to stock my porno game. It doesn't say that a company has to censor itself just so it can get shelf-space near the toy department.

Our freedom of speech/expression doesn't come with a guarentee of zero negative ramifactions from private companies or individuals.

With the Internet and digital downloads, this point is moot anyway. If someone offers a product that people want, they will get it.


In the end the company that makes such a game is beholden to it's share holders or the private producer of the game itself.  The money you make or lose for them will greatly impact the product you put out there for the consumer.  The internet allows great freedom i will grant you that and the modding community is generally where you would end up getting such a product for yourself.  The base item though is still going to be scrutinized to make sure it's "sanitary" enough for the general public.

A great example of this is the the game The Witcher , which got gutted by the rating system but was restored for free online by the company vie a download.

#105
Creature 1

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Zenon wrote...

I quote your post: "Maybe it would help to realize that blacks in American experienced
inequality approaching the level of that experienced by the Jews in
Germany in World War 2
and dragged out over a few centuries.  Does any
other group in Europe have that kind of recent history? "

And?  I do not see why mentioning this makes you angry.  Are you saying that blacks in the US have not been persecuted?  Are you saying Jews were not persecuted?  Are we supposed to pretend the Holocaust didn't happen (why?)?  Or do you somehow feel like I'm accusing you personally of engineering the Holocaust??  The person I was responding to did not seem to understand why blacks as a racial minority in the US might be more likely to suffer inequity than some miscellaneous French (Caucasian) ethnic group.  I provided an example of an ethnic group in Europe that has suffered extreme inequity to try to put in context that some ethnic differences are more historically significant than others. 

Interesting that you say that while not understanding my post yourself. In psychology we call that projection. Anyway, you seem to be immune to irony. Of course honor kills are a societal challenge. Who am I to judge the culture of other people, who think it's justified? But to do that in most western countries including Germany it's against the law. Besides I resent such honor kills as well. People committing such crimes should be sent back to their original country immediately along with their whole family.


Perhaps you might explain what you were trying to say.  Are you under the impression that I think we can't judge the morality of another culture's practices? 

I would disagree, someone committing an "honor" killing should be tried in the nation in which they committed it and judged according to its laws.  And if those laws don't have a problem with honor killings, that is a problem in itself.  

I think 90% of this thread has come about from people arguing against things that I never said, because IMO what I have said (for various demographic reasons the US has more problems with teen pregnancy and STDs than most European nations, so is more sensitive to sexuality in entertainment) is rather unremarkable.  

Modifié par Creature 1, 02 décembre 2009 - 07:25 .


#106
Cryo84

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Zenon wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

There's already a billion page thread on this topic.

My opinion is that sex in the US is frequently problematic--we have pretty high rates of STDs and some are increasing, and we have a high teen pregnancy rate. Violent crime, contrary to the opinions of many outside viewers, is not a problem for most Americans. Your kid is more likely to end up pregnant/get someone else pregnant than to commit aggravated assault. So there's more concern about sexual themes in entertainment than violence.

Some European nations without our problems with teen pregnancy and so forth think this is totally unreasonable, I think they're an illustration of the proverb, "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail." The US is not Europe, it is much more demographically diverse, and because of this has social problems that Europe doesn't have to deal with. What works for European nations does not necessarily work for the US.


Banning display of nudity or sex from any media, especially games, won't reduce the number of teenagers becoming pregnant. Banning violence from games won't reduce the violence or high-school shootings either. These are just prejudices and initiatives taken by politicians not caring about the real cause, but wanting to appear righteous and good to their voters.

Actually it makes me wonder, why teenage pregnancy and high-school violence is so much a topic in the US? It's a country where getting a gun is easy with a strong rifle association. It has the biggest porn industry of the world. And some of the greatest hypocrites get voted in high positions, hence senator Palin having puritan views and a pregnant teenage daughter. IMO the stronger you fight something, the less you inform your kids, the uglier the result. (I also loved Bowling for Columbine btw.)

Should probably read up a little more.

#107
Dark83

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BomimoDK wrote...
american culture is the common love of independence and freedom for the individual.

If this was true, then why did America turn into the Land of the Sheep during Dubya's administration, complete with ostracizing anyone who questioned the administration's reduction of freedoms and denial of due process? (A national level of rejection for independant thought and freedoms.) :whistle:

#108
Jassper

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BomimoDK wrote...

sorry, but that was a massive mouth dump you just delivered there. american culture is the common love of independence and freedom for the individual.
america's culture contains extreme amounts of individualims, often on the border of egoism. the health care program struck a nerve at egoists since that would mean  A/ it's gonna cost me 100$ extra a month and b/ do you, this is communism. (in fact it's just socialism and it does no harm, but anything benifiting the public that isn't thought out by an american is the product of something else, and since the concept is the greater good of all, all the egoists cry "COMMUNISM" and tell "**** NO!!!".
america says that they're about freedom for all. but they show us that this freedom only applies to middle/upper class and this freedom better **** off if it was to ever cost you some luxury.

american culture exists, and it leaves the whole world around it confused and dumbfound at how hypocritic it actually is.


There is so much wrong (ill informed) with this post I don't even know where to begin. Image IPB

#109
Cryo84

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Clearly, religion is the only method used in history to control peoples behavior.

Never mind the USSR, **** Germany, the PRC, Global warming, etc etc.

The problem isn't religion or state, its people.

EDIT, wow, you can't say the name of the National Socialist German Workers party on this forum, THATS enlightenment for you.

Modifié par Cryo84, 02 décembre 2009 - 07:51 .


#110
Dark83

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Creature 1 wrote...

Zenon wrote...

I quote your post: "Maybe it would help to realize that blacks in American experienced
inequality approaching the level of that experienced by the Jews in
Germany in World War 2
and dragged out over a few centuries.  Does any
other group in Europe have that kind of recent history? "

And?  I do not see why mentioning this makes you angry.  Are you saying that blacks in the US have not been persecuted?

I can see why.
You're equating the treatment of blacks with the treatment of Jews in Germany. Bluntly, slavery was not as bad as attempted genocide and medical experimentation. You'd just trivialized the Holocaust, essentially.
I personally don't think 200 years of slavery equates to systematic mass slaughter.
I don't think slavery ever equates to genocide.

#111
Fluffykeith

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Seems to be flying wildly off topic here, guys

Um..and the guy who posted above me needs to read up on slavery a bit more, and really look into the conditions that slaves generally suffered. Just because its happening over a long period of time doesn't reduce the human cost...it merely stretches it out over the decades into centuries.

Modifié par Fluffykeith, 02 décembre 2009 - 07:59 .


#112
Dark83

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Global Warming is a concept accepted by the scientific community. The only ones who deny it are those who have considerable economic interest in denying it. The only dissension amongst scientists is how much can be attributed to human behavior. "We didn't cause it!" is a much more nuanced and hard to sell concept than "It ain't happening!" which is clearly believed by those who don't bother to do the research. (One of the primary causes of the greenhouse effect is methane, and the primary source of that is cow farts. Srsly.)

On a semi-related note, this has thus far been the least snowy, least cold winter here in Canada for over a hundred years.

#113
ZeroPlan

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Well all countries have their history of suppressing and prosecute minorties and other crimes. It's not worth to draw any comparisions. They all made their faults. It's up to us living to not repeat them. This is what history can teach us.

#114
Dark83

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Fluffykeith wrote...

Just because its happening over a long period of time doesn't reduce the human cost...it merely stretches it out over the decades into centuries.

This is the black/white logical fallacy.
I didn't say it's acceptable, I said it's not as bad as genocide.
Unless you're saying it would be less of a crime if they just slaughtered all the Africans they could get their hands on? There wouldn't be any black people in America now, in that case.

#115
pathenry

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Dark83 wrote...
You're equating the treatment of blacks with the treatment of Jews in Germany. Bluntly, slavery was not as bad as attempted genocide and medical experimentation. You'd just trivialized the Holocaust, essentially.
I personally don't think 200 years of slavery equates to systematic mass slaughter.


Awww, its on!

My victim-class is twice as oppressed as your victim-class!

Its on! - Victim off!

#116
addiction21

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"I think we have different value systems." —Arthur

"Well mine's better." —Ford

#117
NErWOnek

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No no and no, SEX isn't taboo in this game lol... PORN is a big NO NO... and I agree with it, it's a very proper standpoint, if You want 3d PORN then find it somewhere else...

#118
Dark83

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pathenry wrote...

Awww, its on!

My victim-class is twice as oppressed as your victim-class!

Its on! - Victim off!

I'm a completely different visible minority, though. :?
My people built a railroad and entered near-slavery voluntarily. :P

#119
F-C

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to me its pretty simple, but i guess some people want to blame religion and all these other things, but that has pretty much nothing to do with it in my view on things. my view is entirely based around people having successful lives.

if a teenager goes out and gets in some fights, he might even get a broken bone, but he can get patched up at the doctors and after a couple fights he knows it hurts and he learns. life moves on, he finishes high school, goes to college, and has a successful life.

if a teenager goes out sexing up every other person they meet, he thinks this is awesome and never learns until oops i got someone pregnant. now their life is effectively over, chances are he wont finish high school, he wont go to college, and he will be doomed to have bottom rung jobs or be on welfare forcing us to pay for his mistakes.

sex isnt bad, and sex shouldnt be banned, but it also shouldnt be encouraged in youths until they are old enough and experienced enough to realize how it can destroy their life and leave them on the bottom rung of life mooching off of the taxpayers to pay for their survival.

i think all these religion bashing posts and so on are pretty funny though, it seems most atheists will jump at any old chance to start screaming religion is bad even if they have to make up excuses. ever stop to wonder why these are the people who are so offended by everything?

Modifié par F-C, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:25 .


#120
rumblefv

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Dark83 wrote...

Fluffykeith wrote...

Just because its happening over a long period of time doesn't reduce the human cost...it merely stretches it out over the decades into centuries.

This is the black/white logical fallacy.
I didn't say it's acceptable, I said it's not as bad as genocide.
Unless you're saying it would be less of a crime if they just slaughtered all the Africans they could get their hands on? There wouldn't be any black people in America now, in that case.


Yes,  they both are terrible crimes against humanity but I have to agree you can't compare slavery with genocide. Yes, many slaves (we are talking about black slaves here from the colonial periods up to the civil war, yes?) were killed while being captured, transported across the ocean, and worked here but this was not a systematic slaughter of people. What Hitler did during WW2, the Japanese did in Nanking, etc; that was a calculated mass annihilation of human beings.

#121
iKral

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Because a book I read said it's cool when cities are slaughtered and my tribe commits genocide. I forgot what it said about sex but that guy I listen to on Sunday who gets 10% of my paycheck says sex is bad so thats probably got something to do with it.

Modifié par iKral, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:27 .


#122
Creature 1

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Dark83 wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Zenon wrote...

I quote your post: "Maybe it would help to realize that blacks in American experienced
inequality approaching the level of that experienced by the Jews in
Germany in World War 2
and dragged out over a few centuries.  Does any
other group in Europe have that kind of recent history? "

And?  I do not see why mentioning this makes you angry.  Are you saying that blacks in the US have not been persecuted?

I can see why.
You're equating the treatment of blacks with the treatment of Jews in Germany. Bluntly, slavery was not as bad as attempted genocide and medical experimentation. You'd just trivialized the Holocaust, essentially.
I personally don't think 200 years of slavery equates to systematic mass slaughter.
I don't think slavery ever equates to genocide.

From a previous post of mine:

So you're claiming millions of
African Americans have been killed as a part of state-organised
genocide? How can you possibly claim that discrimination of blacks in
the US has ever been on the same level as the holocaust?

Not
as a program of genocide, because at that time black people were seen
as an economic resource.  Black people in the US were enslaved, raped,
and murdered, and even after slavery was abolished faced another
century of discrimination, being isolated from white society and
suffering lynchings and otherwise terrorized.  The death toll of the
slave trade is incalculable.  It's estimated that 8 million people died
on slave ships crossing the Atlantic, but the number who died due to
mistreatment while in slavery in the US cannot be known.  So, no,
I said that the level of mistreatment of blacks in the US approached
the level experienced by Jews in the Holocaust.  The death toll for the
slave trade was greater than the Holocaust and the duration of
persecution going back many generations, but the Holocaust in some ways
was more severe because it was a concentrated effort at extermination
rather than economic exploitation followed by casual persecution. 

How
can you measure that severity of an atrocity?  The duration and total
death toll of the slave trade was greater, but the intensity of
persecution in the Holocaust was greater.  There's no point trying to
decide which one was worse.  Both should have never happened.


Your reaction is rather confusing.  You pointed out that the American Indians were almost wiped out by settlers, and said that I cannot judge Germans for the Holocaust.  Yet you also say that I minimized the severity of the Holocaust.  Which is it, am I being accusing or dismissive?  

I personally think you are minimizing the suffering of people in the slave trade.  The slave trade had a known death toll greater than the Holocaust, lasted for 12 generations, and has had effects upon American culture that continue to the present day over a century after the abolition of slavery.  Just because the slave trade was by some measures not as severe as the Holocaust does not mean that it has no significance to American blacks today.  Because of this, comparing the ethnic minority of blacks in the US to ethnic minorities in Europe of the same race as the majority and historically not mistreated by the majority is nonsensical. 

Edit:  Again, trying to say which is worse is a futile exercise, and completely beside the point.  My point was that the black minority in the US historically has more in common with the minority of Jews in the Third Reich than a miscellaneous minority Caucasion ethnic group in France. 

Modifié par Creature 1, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:34 .


#123
OnlineSucks

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TripedWire wrote...

Personally I have no problem with either and it baffles me why some people are all 'OMG sex! gayelfsex BAN THIS FILTH!!' whilst barely batting an eyelid at the hyperviolence throughout the game.
Amidst the endless bloody beheadings, eviscerations, impalements, exploding guts and all sorts of **** flying arond theres a little bump and grind and people get ofended? by that?

I give no ****s, that is retarded.


People don't go out and cut off heads after playing video games. (No matter what Jack Thompson wants you to believe)  However, teen pregnancy is a plague and seeing sexual images DOES encourage it more.

Bioware should have provided filters for both, you play the way you want to, they play the way they want to.

I think the violence is retarded and adds nothing to the game, I was severely disappointed that the so called "gore filter" only stops you from getting covered in blood, BIG DEAL.  They should have also added options to completely remove gore if a player wishes that.

Not interested in reading replies or arguing about this, that's my 2 cents.

#124
OnlineSucks

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BomimoDK wrote...

sorry, but that was a massive mouth dump you just delivered there. american culture is the common love of independence and freedom for the individual.
america's culture contains extreme amounts of individualims, often on the border of egoism. the health care program struck a nerve at egoists since that would mean  A/ it's gonna cost me 100$ extra a month and b/ do you, this is communism. (in fact it's just socialism and it does no harm, but anything benifiting the public that isn't thought out by an american is the product of something else, and since the concept is the greater good of all, all the egoists cry "COMMUNISM" and tell "**** NO!!!".
america says that they're about freedom for all. but they show us that this freedom only applies to middle/upper class and this freedom better **** off if it was to ever cost you some luxury.

american culture exists, and it leaves the whole world around it confused and dumbfound at how hypocritic it actually is.


Best... post... ever.  %100 accurate.

#125
Pyromanen

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Saying that the US is more diverse than Europe is a bit iffy at best. Sure, we might not have teh same racial makeup in the european population that you can find in the american population, but we have plenty of diversity.

The US as a whole is one nation, no matter how many states. Europe has a massive national diversity to pit against the racial diversity in the US.

What we end up with is comapring two groups of people, the US with about 300 million people, and Europe with about 450 million (figures i think i read at some point in Wikipedia, but dont hold me to them! ^^).

It's very hard to come to a conclusion about such things. Creature meantiones hispanics as something we dont really have in Europe, but where did they come from? We have the spaniards and portugese who emigrated to south america and became the dominent racial group there. We have an increasing stream of immigrants from africa and the middle east, which leads to great social and cultural differences, aswell as racial ones.



Also, i dont think catholicism is the dominant religion in Europe, the reformation did a rather good job of splitting things down the middle, with northern europe more inclined to the protestant versions of christianity, while the southern parts are still mostly catholic, but then there's Russia, which is mostly orthodox, but then that's only one branch of the orthodox church, it starts to be a rather big mess when you count in all the different kinds of christianity, and then you have to consider judaism, islam, and the varieties of those.



I dont want to trvialize the problems blacks face in america, and have faced in the past, but you do know that the holocaust was just the extreme end to a good 500 years or more of antisemitism in Europe? For the entire middle ages jews were not allowed to own land in most of Europe, infact, one of the reasons for the large jewish population in Poland at the time of WWII is that the polish king opened up to the jews centuries before anyone else did in Europe.

The history of slavery is also alot longer and deeper in Europe than it ever was in north america. The word slave is itself a degenerate form of the word slav, and the slavs are the major group of people inhabiting eastern europe and russia. They were quite often enslaved, especially by the romans when they went into the balkans and then north in thier many wars of conquest.

But then again, we have had several thousands of years more to muck things up in Europe than you new worlders have. ^^



All in all, i'd say the diversity is pretty close between the US and Europe, too clsoe for me to call it to one side, or the other anyway.



Anyway, back on topic, the taboo around sex has nothing to do with religion as such, but more something to do with the christian set of moral values that have become so deeply engrained in western culture, and those values can also be found i the other two relgions christianity shares a heritage with, judaism and islam. The ten commandments, which form the basis of some centrals laws in most western countries, are from the oldest book considered part of the bible, the same texts that are also sacred to the jews, and to muslims aswell, to some extent. The reason sex is more taboo than violence, is that we're rather expected to have sex at some point, sex in itself is not illegal, so it's more obvious that violence is wrong, which makes the "temptations" posed by seeing violence in movies or games easier to resist. Also the dangers invovled with performing violent acts are rather higher than those involved in having sex.