233 réponses à ce sujet

[Banana Muffin]

F-C wrote...

Banana Muffin wrote...
Now I know you don't care what I say since you think I am a defender of CHILDKILLERS but anyway..

About teenage violence not being so bad, I think the parents of the victims of Colombine would beg to differ as would thousands of other parents that lost children to teenage violence across the world. I'd take may daughter getting knocked up over being killed any day.

Also I find it strange how american christians generally think violence is fine but sex is so bad. As I recall Jesus never said anything negative about sex, on the contrary he liked to hang out with prostitutes. He did however say that thing about turning your other cheek so it seems he wasn't too hot on violence.

citing examples of mentally unstable people as the normal is a pretty weak arguement.

you could cite examples of mentally unstable people from every walk of life and say "look this happened!" but it doesnt make your point valid, at all.

You misunderstood, my only point was that teenage violence can have more serious consequences than a broken nose. Seemingly normal teenagers kill other teenagers in fights too, there are not only the extreme cases like Colombine.

I am not blaming any of this on video violence, but you are claming that sex has worse consequences for teenagers than violence and that is simply not true.

In my high school there was one and only one girl that got pregnant, there was also one boy who got killed by another boy. So which parent do you think got it worse?

[Fluffykeith]

F-C wrote...

Fluffykeith wrote...

The thing is, I think theres more sexual imagary and sexualisation in popular media through music videos than there is in the sort of computer games you can buy in the shops. I know that makes me sound like a old fart (I'm only 32...) but the sort of sexual imagary seen in games like DA:O or Mass Effect isn't nearly as in your face as a Britney Spears video, and is generally more tastefully done

i agree and i dont really think thats a good thing either. i think its terrible the way we have children more interested in sex than having successful lives.

i personally dont want to live in a world full of welfare babies.

this discussion is mostly about the game though, and i dont think pointing to one wrong justifies another wrong.

Well, it doesn't.

However, I'm not certain that sex in video games is necessarily wrong any more than its necessarily wrong in a novel or a movie, provided its presented within context and isn't aggressivly aimed at those that are too young for it.
In the UK, DA:O has an 18 rating and is clearly labeled as such, and the sex in it is far less graphic and far less in your face than many movies that receive age 15 certificates in this country. The 18 rating is also given to films like Saw and Hostel and The Hills Have Eyes...torture-porn that the mass media seem quite comfortable with. Is DA:O really in the same ballpark as loathsome films like that? I really don't think so. And the sex in DA:O seems to be far less "rampant" than is depicted in other media, such as "pop" music (ugh...). Its not like your character in the game can sleep with everything that moves. To get to one of the sub-soft-core scenes that are less explicit than some shampoo commercials, your character has to develop feelings for one of the others and actually have a relationship, yes?
I'm having a hard time seeing how that is going to encourage kids to have sex, especially kids who shouldn't be playing the game anyway because of its rating.

[Tsumoro]

I do find topics like this interesting and also infuriating at the same time. Part of a role playing game is that you take a role and play the part, which is what Bioware are famous for and are excellent story tellers. Their stories are engrossing and personal to the individual. Granted there are some that wish to hack and slash their way through but I would imagine they would get quickly bored with a game such as DA:O considering its focus is on story telling.



Sex and violence is part of our culture, like it or not. It is part of us and who we are and we should in no means censor the creative aspirations of any individual for you might as well put a ban to what people 'think' and 'feel' as well. Sadly, sex and violence does sell and people do make games and films on these sole contributing facts ignoring story structure or said gameplay just because they HAVE to see it/own it.



I remember watching a Bioware interview on the news as they tried to justify the sex scene in Mass Effect (which I might add shows nothing worse then what you might expect in romantic films such as Notting Hill). But people have trouble understanding the depth of emotion some people invest into RPG's and see games as aimed at 'Children' and thus peddling images of sex and violence. The interview itself was very biased and did anger me because they had already made their minds up and all of those interviewing admitted as to never playing the game.



I say it again Bioware are excellent story tellers and the sex, violence, racism (with the elves etc) are all issues we encounter in every day life and do nothing but strengthen your experience and your commitment to the characters.



The media serves in my opinion in acting in their own interests and I consider them very hypocritical when they get on the band wagon of sex and violence considering it's these core aspects of their media they typically focus on for air time, or for newspaper sales.



My personal opinion is, make your own choice, based on your own raising, beliefs and teachings. If you enjoy something and it hurts no individual then why should you be dictated to as to what is right and what is wholesome and to what is wrong and degrading.

[ZeroPlan]

Johohoho.Ehehehe wrote...

Cryo84 wrote...

Clearly, religion is the only method used in history to control peoples behavior.

Never mind the USSR, **** Germany, the PRC, Global warming, etc etc.

The problem isn't religion or state, its people.

EDIT, wow, you can't say the name of the National Socialist German Workers party on this forum, THATS enlightenment for you.

Communism, ****sm, Global Warmig etc. are modern religions.

Global Warming religion?

[Pyromanen]

Creature 1 wrote...

Pyromanen wrote...
But Europe is much more compact than the US is, if we're restricted to talking about a single country, which can have large problems on it's own, then it's only fair that you're restricted to only talking about a single state. The US consists of 50 states, which all have thier differences, as you yourself pointed out when the talk fell on american culture. So when you talk about all 50 states as one, then why cant we counter with the 50 or so states that exist in Europe, to get closer to the same amounts of people and the same areas involved?

We can talk about single states if you like.  The two major demographic groups producing high rates of teen pregnancies in the US are poor racial/ethnic minorities and poor religious conservatives.  The reasons for the high rates differ among the groups.  The state I grew up in has a lower percentage of racial minorities than some but a high percentage of poor religious conservatives, and a pretty high teen pregnancy rate.  By contrast, Vermont has very little demographic diversity (mostly white, more affluent than many states), low numbers of poor religious conservatives, and a lower teen pregnancy rate.  It could still be lowered, probably better education and access to contraceptives would help. 

Well that's rather close to my point, sure, you can find countries in Europe that have very few problems of the kind we're discussing, but you can also find places that are much worse, just like you can if you look at different states in the US, my claim is merely that we are an as diverse collection of states as the US:

[Jekalot]

Sex is taboo because it adds another resource-draining member to society. I am also going to tell you it is taboo because I want to be the only one doing it when you're not looking.



Violence is acceptable because it liberates resources for remaining members and brings us together, stronger, in mourning. I am also going to encourage violence because I feel that may intimidate others into not protracting violence upon me as I seem to be a violent person.



Once enough violence is done and there are far more available resources than needed, I will either reverse this belief or be killed for maintaining it, or simply grow old and bitter wondering why my offspring are such pansies, not realizing I was part of a cycle; an age-old human survival trait.

[addiction21]

Johohoho.Ehehehe wrote...


Communism, n-a-z-i-sm, Global Warmig etc. are modern religions.

Would you care to elaborate on this statement a little? I am sure I am not the only person that would like to know how you came to this conclusion.

[Dark83]

If Global Warming is a religion, then so is Gravity, Evolution, Electromagnetism, and the study of Germs.

[Zenon]

Concerning the original questions I would like to add a suggestion for future games and sequels:



I like DA:O as is and am happy to have an uncut version in Germany, where often violence gets crippled. Still, not everyone likes it. My idea: Please add violence at various levels with a setting in the preferences/options similar to: 0 no blood, 1 a little blood, 2 a lot of blood, 3 fountains of blood spattered everywhere



Do something similar with nudity and sex. Of course the player actually can choose not to follow romance options at all, but perhaps it is better to have something like: 0 dressed characters (like in NWN2), 1 underwear (like in DA:O), 2 nudity, but artfully hidden with max "sideboob" (like in ME), 3 full nudity with erotic adult content (tastefully done without being pornographic like in Fahrenheit)

[Zenon]

Tsumoro wrote...

I do find topics like this interesting and also infuriating at the same time. Part of a role playing game is that you take a role and play the part, which is what Bioware are famous for and are excellent story tellers. Their stories are engrossing and personal to the individual. Granted there are some that wish to hack and slash their way through but I would imagine they would get quickly bored with a game such as DA:O considering its focus is on story telling.

Sex and violence is part of our culture, like it or not. It is part of us and who we are and we should in no means censor the creative aspirations of any individual for you might as well put a ban to what people 'think' and 'feel' as well. Sadly, sex and violence does sell and people do make games and films on these sole contributing facts ignoring story structure or said gameplay just because they HAVE to see it/own it.

I remember watching a Bioware interview on the news as they tried to justify the sex scene in Mass Effect (which I might add shows nothing worse then what you might expect in romantic films such as Notting Hill). But people have trouble understanding the depth of emotion some people invest into RPG's and see games as aimed at 'Children' and thus peddling images of sex and violence. The interview itself was very biased and did anger me because they had already made their minds up and all of those interviewing admitted as to never playing the game.

I say it again Bioware are excellent story tellers and the sex, violence, racism (with the elves etc) are all issues we encounter in every day life and do nothing but strengthen your experience and your commitment to the characters.

The media serves in my opinion in acting in their own interests and I consider them very hypocritical when they get on the band wagon of sex and violence considering it's these core aspects of their media they typically focus on for air time, or for newspaper sales.

My personal opinion is, make your own choice, based on your own raising, beliefs and teachings. If you enjoy something and it hurts no individual then why should you be dictated to as to what is right and what is wholesome and to what is wrong and degrading.

/signed

(edit) Couldn't have said it better. I hope Bioware doesn't step back from the point they reached in ME, but maybe carefully inch forward in ME2 from where they stand. Perhaps slowly it is possible to convince the public, that artfully showing a live scene with undressed individuals are not evil.

Modifié par Zenon, 02 décembre 2009 - 09:50 .

[Dark83]

Johohoho.Ehehehe wrote...

ZeroPlan wrote...

Global Warming religion?

Yes. Firstly, they created the sin. The more common and natural human behavour is declared a sin the more control the religion is capable of acquiring. Thus, it used to be sex, origin, property and now consumption.

Secondly, they created a Consequence that is so remote, so uncertain and thus irrefutable (albeit incapable of being proven) that it could be omnipresent, always threatening. Is it getting warmer? Well, we said that. Is it getting colder? Well, that's the result of the Global Warming too! In the worst case, it can renamed to the Climatic Change. It's like Remeption, Apocalypse and other prophecies: You will never be able to actually find whether they were true or not, because they happen after your death!

Thirdly, the Sin is used to justify Oppression. Let's see, for instance, the latest legislation of the European Union. In the name of the Global Warming "threat" they will regulate your life to an inconceivable detail: What cars may be produced, what lightbulbs are you allowed to use at home, whether you may breath all day long etc. Green fascists I say!

No, that's Ignorance.
Climate Change has nothing to do with consumption. It's fact amongst those in the field.
The question is what impact, if any, humanity has had upon it. That, in and of itself, has nothing to do with Climate Change. The science supports it - the politics is about what we should do about it, if anything.

This is the same problem with China and the Chinese. It is possible to be Chinese and hate China's totalitarian ****s. Except that being against China is apparently not being Chinese. ****ing nationalistic jerkwads.

[Pyromanen]

Having spent some 5 months studying the phenomenon at university, i'd like to state something rather controversial.



I dont believe in global warming.



It cant be scientificly proven, the global average temperatures they use to prove it are technicly impossible to make accurate, and just plain wrong.

Global warming has become a religion in it's own right, many consider what i've just said here heresy.

[Dark83]

Johohoho.Ehehehe wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

If Global Warming is a religion, then so is Gravity, Evolution, Electromagnetism, and the study of Germs.

... and flat Globe, the amount of iron in spinach, smoking is healthy, the superiority of German race etc.

EDIT: Did you actually put that fantasy novel called Evolution amongst scientific theories such as Gravity?

All four are valid, current, scientific theories. Your list do not consist of such.

Johohoho.Ehehehe wrote...

All of them are based on belief
that either has not been proven to be true or has already been proven
false. All of them are based on worship, rituals, gathering or shortly
mass control. All of them use the disctinction between "us" and "them".
All of them use violence against unbelievers.

For Climate Change, this is false. Scientific theories are never proven true - they are merely not yet falsified.

Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new
evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific
theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not
so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive
explanation of an important feature of nature supported by facts
gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions
about as yet unobserved phenomena,

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect
of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been
repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such
fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the
real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a
theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic
theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of
gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity,
like evolution, is an accepted fact.

Science does not take sides. The only ones who see science as "against them" is when they are threatened by what science uncovers. Science merely observes natural events, develop an explaination, and perform experiments to verify the validity of the explaination.

[Banana Muffin]

Creature 1 wrote...

Banana Muffin wrote...

F-C wrote...

Now I know you don't care what I say since you think I am a defender of CHILDKILLERS but anyway..

About teenage violence not being so bad, I think the parents of the victims of Colombine would beg to differ as would thousands of other parents that lost children to teenage violence across the world. I'd take may daughter getting knocked up over being killed any day.

Also I find it strange how american christians generally think violence is fine but sex is so bad. As I recall Jesus never said anything negative about sex, on the contrary he liked to hang out with prostitutes. He did however say that thing about turning your other cheek so it seems he wasn't too hot on violence.

Hello again. 

I didn't see him say that teens dying in drive-bys is just fine.  I saw him point out that violent crime does not affect as many teens as teen pregnancy does.  Most of the time violence teens are exposed to is relatively minor.  This is a good thing.  If we could decrease it further that would be better. 

More parents are worried about their kid getting [someone] pregnant than getting shot at school, and this is reasonable because the first scenario is many times more likely. 

I've explained why American society tolerates depictions of violence more than depictions of sex many times.  Unless you personally are offended and angered by the slaughter of Darkspawn depicted in the game, I'm not sure why you're annoyed more Christians are not. 

I am agnostic, by the way. 

This was what he said:

F-C wrote...
if a teenager goes out and gets in some fights, he might even get a
broken bone, but he can get patched up at the doctors and after a
couple fights he knows it hurts and he learns. life moves on, he
finishes high school, goes to college, and has a successful life.

if
a teenager goes out sexing up every other person they meet, he thinks
this is awesome and never learns until oops i got someone pregnant. now
their life is effectively over, chances are he wont finish high school,
he wont go to college, and he will be doomed to have bottom rung jobs
or be on welfare forcing us to pay for his mistakes.

He doesn't mention less people being affected by violence he says the consequences are less.

Now I don't believe that playing video games with sex in them will make you want to sex up every person you meet and I also don't believe that playing  games where you blow up heads will make you go out and shoot people.

I do however believe that if video games did have this affect then the violence would be much worse. It doesn't really matter if teenage pregnancies are more common than killings since in my opinion killing someone is always at least 50 times worse than getting someone pregnant.

What I really can't get is how someone who honestly believes that games have this effect on people (which F-C has said several times he does) can condone the violence but not the sex.

I'm agnostic too btw.

[Zenon]

Pyromanen wrote...

Having spent some 5 months studying the phenomenon at university, i'd like to state something rather controversial.

I dont believe in global warming.

It cant be scientificly proven, the global average temperatures they use to prove it are technicly impossible to make accurate, and just plain wrong.
Global warming has become a religion in it's own right, many consider what i've just said here heresy.

You need to also consider, that our politicians find this an excellent excuse to raise taxes on products supposedly causing environmental problems through high C02 output in the production process. Somehow Germany is quite advanced in this field, too... sadly. But because it is considered common knowledge by now I'd be in a minority of sceptics.

[Fluffykeith]

I respect you right to have formed that opinion, Pyromanen. I'd just like to say that having spent 4 years studying the environment at University, and having achieved a degree in the subject, I do believe that global warming is occuring and I do believe that mankind has had and continues to have an impact on it.

[Dark83]

Pyromanen wrote...

Having spent some 5 months studying the phenomenon at university, i'd like to state something rather controversial.

I dont believe in global warming.

It cant be scientificly proven, the global average temperatures they use to prove it are technicly impossible to make accurate, and just plain wrong.

I strongly doubt it is literally impossible - it merely seems technically impossible to you because you lack knowledge of the techniques. Do you have something specific to call impossible with regards to, for example, the Artic ice cores or upper level temperature readings?

[Xzenorath]

People still believe playing games affect their personality? Hilarious.



It never ceases to amaze me how idiotic some people can be, especially on forums. I've played games all my life for as far as I remember and I've never went and punched, shot, sliced someone nor have I went on a sexin' everybody up spree and ended up catching ze AIDS of doom or having babies.



My god, some people are so damn clueless, it's amazing, it really is.

[Drake Sigar]

Did anyone else find it unusual that Mass Effect is a 12+ game and shows twice as much nudity as Dragon Age, an adult game?

[MrJackdaw]

Why not take Pascal's wager over climate change?



If it is true and we do nothing - we lose everything.

If it is false and we do something - we lose very little.



As I see it the argument here holds well.



If we save fuel - a finite resource - we are holding back a problem our children will face. If we reduce pollution, we will help preserve the forests by a reduction in acid rain etc. The benefits run wide.