172 réponses à ce sujet

[Revelo]

The problem is that one of Bob's favourite mediums is comic books, which logically are art since they contain tons of artwork... comic books also get stuff retconned all the time with a plotline does something stupid or a character gets derailed. I don't hear him bring that up, so in others words it's either hypocrasy and double standards here. It's pretty easy to change a film or a comic or a game by doing a retcon, releasing a version where events happen differently, and with games it's easy to release something online and update it, since the internet has improved accessibility a hundredfold.

Looking at Mass Effect 3 find it hard to call it "art" when it completely invalidates the entire story and plot built up over three years, and somehow introduces tons and tons of plot holes which can't be explained at all and make no damn sense. Even if we accepted the choices we had to make in the ending, it still doesn't explain how Joker was able to fly down to earth, pick up all your party members, then decide he needs to flee the battle for no reason when he or the crew would never abandon Shepard. Then somehow survive a Mass Relay explosion which are supposed to wipe out everything in the system it's in. Not to mention that Earth now has to suppose millions of aliens somehow, hard to call that "art". I don't think it's unreasonable for fans to call for a change when the last 20 minutes flew off the rails and completely invalided characters and the whole damn story. We want to see that the hours and choices we made in the game mattered. Rather then seeing a confusing mess that gives us very little in the way of sense and closure.

And for that record, Bethesda changed the ending to Fallout 3 and it didn't hurt the game! I don't recall people coming to defend their so-called artistic integrity! Ebert judged that games were not art, we all complained and got him to change his opinion (similar to what happened to Fallout 3, hint hint) so why are we suddenly using "Games are now art" as a crutch to defend everything? Games have changed before after release and they will do again.

Modifié par Revelo, 29 mars 2012 - 10:17 .

[BeefoTheBold]

Dridengx wrote...

DA2 sold more at launch and still sold well. you can't deny that. Not to mention your graph isn't even showing PC sales.. you know.. where Bioware's fanbase originated. not to mention that's an america only graph lol nice try

No, it is both an Americas and Europe graph.

If you've got PC numbers, then by all means show me them.

I don't have them off the top of my head, but I know it isn't logical for you to assume that a streamlined game that was designed specifically to appeal to console gamers sold better on the PC than the original that was targeted at PC gamers.

Nice try on YOUR part though.

Modifié par BeefoTheBold, 29 mars 2012 - 10:07 .

[BanditGR]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

Louis deGuerre wrote...

Art defense is nonsense.
We were on repeated occasions promised things that the game would deliver
These were not delivered.
Game is a great dishwasher...but i ordered a fridge.
Art has nothing to do with this but is a nice shield to hide behind as it makes consumers who complain look like bookburning evil barbarians who like tolitarian military regimes.

The "All we are doing is complaing" defense is nonesense as well.  You know good and well thats not the point and that theres a line that was jumped across let alone stepped.

And those that have jumped that line are making an idiot out of themselves. Your mistake is generalizing and trying to paint all the complaints in the same negative/destructive criticism light. We've seen it before and we'll see it again in the future. The story forum is filled with TONS of threads, youtube videos and whatnot where fans are analyzing the endings, providing feedback, theories and suggestions in a constructive manner. They've been doing this from day one, hell even before day one, when the endings were datamined.

All in all there is a difference between people providing valid complaints in a civil manner and mindless barbarians demanding that something is altered to their own specification. Unfortunately, a fanbase, any fanbase contains a little bit of both.

[addiction21]

Louis deGuerre wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

The "All we are doing is complaing" defense is nonesense as well.  You know good and well thats not the point and that theres a line that was jumped across let alone stepped.

Sez you

When Leonardo Da Vinci painted something that was not what the client was promised they told him to come back and paint what they ordered.
It didn't matter that the first painting was a masterpiece that he worked on for years.
It wasn't what the client ordered.
You wanna get artistic, do it with someone else's money and on your own time.

You are not a client.
You did not order anything.
You did not provide them money to develop the game.

Get over it.

[Louis deGuerre]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

No not sez me.  Says rules and laws.  It's against the law to threaten someone.  That line is there for a reason.  If you don't think that well then I'll wait for you picture on Mugshot.com.

I missed the bit where I was making threats. You're making two arguments, I'm only responding to the arty one that offends me. I personally would not make threats about video games, except financial ones.

Very typical reaction I must say, ignoring my reason and making me out a lover of violence. <_<

[BeefoTheBold]

addiction21 wrote...

Louis deGuerre wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

The "All we are doing is complaing" defense is nonesense as well.  You know good and well thats not the point and that theres a line that was jumped across let alone stepped.

Sez you

When Leonardo Da Vinci painted something that was not what the client was promised they told him to come back and paint what they ordered.
It didn't matter that the first painting was a masterpiece that he worked on for years.
It wasn't what the client ordered.
You wanna get artistic, do it with someone else's money and on your own time.

You are not a client.
You did not order anything.
You did not provide them money to develop the game.

Get over it.

Baffling logic. He bought the game. Presumably it isn't the first game in the series he bought. If he bought the first two, then he did indeed provide money for them to develop the game.

If the first two games hadn't sold well, do you really think EA would have green lighted a third? He may not be DIRECTLY giving them money, but he's definitely a client/patron.

[Louis deGuerre]

addiction21 wrote...

You are not a client.
You did not order anything.
You did not provide them money to develop the game.

Get over it.

Give my money back and I'll be over it.

[Dude_in_the_Room]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

Thats the thing. 

L4D2 > boycott = sold well

Activision milking COD > boycott = sold well

Oblivion was dumbed down > sorta boycott = Skyrim sells record sales

EA messed up my Bioware experience > "boycott" tons of ****ing and whining = DA2 and ME3 both sell well

If you're going to do it then DO IT.  Boycotting isn't something you throw around like a taco.  It's how you get things done.  If you knew ME2 was dumbed down or whatever AND you know what they did with DA2 WHY DID YOU BUY ME3?????

I know what you're going to say.  Theres tons of casual gamers that don't really care buying these games.  Well then maybe you are in the minority.  It's like when Skyrim came out.  The forums had lots of ppl posting about broken games.  Well.....b/c the forums is the place for that.  There were millions of ppl that didn't have any problem with there game that had no reason or just didn't want to come to the forums.

Actually, DA2 did NOT sell well. When a SEQUEL sells half as much as the original, then it is a total and complete flop. It had a bunch of preorders based on DAO, and then when people found out that it was a mailed in piece of **** that was not at all like the game they thought they were getting, word of mouth killed the sales.



As for why people bought ME3, it is because ME2 was a good game. A VERY good game. And what parts that were not good, that the game had been TOO "streamlined" and "dumbed down" and too much RPG elements had been taken out were promised by Bioware to be fixed.

That's the thing I think you, and a lot of others, miss. One of the reasons, perhaps THE BIGGEST REASON why people are ticked about the ME3 ending is that they feel that they were lied to.

Before I even bother dealing with the latest "vocal minority" BS comment, let me ask you a third time.

Do you think it is premature for you to be here, defending Bioware and their ending, when you have not even seen it?

While you're thinking about answering that, please don't make numbers up. All available evidence, from online polls to user Metacritic ratings, say that YOU are the minority. You can't, on the one hand, say that the reaction is over the top and excessive and then say it's nothing but a few people. Those are mutually exclusive concepts.

Amazing......out of 5 or 6 games you found 1 that I was wrong about......you got me. 

I'm NOT in the minority.  Before I entertain the reason why I'll say this: don't use online polls and metacritic crap to think you have evidence.  AGAIN the internet is THE place for fans to **** about things.  There are millions of ppl who are at the very least just saying "Ahh, that ending wasn't that great, but it was a fun game." 

Do you honestly think the reaction of this type is common??  Do you actually think metacritic is viable??  There were ppl ranting about the game 2 hours after  it's release.....don't even give me that crap as evidence.

As for me thinking it's premature...that goes along with me not being in the minority.  I don't have a stance on THE ENDING.  I have a stance on the reaction that I think is hurting gaming as a whole. 

If I play this game to the end and hate the ending I WILL come here and complain.  1 thread.  1 small paragraph.  Then I'll be done.  Why?  B/c (taking into account that the rest of the 40 hours is like the first 3 I've played) I would have played a highly fun game with ONLY the excpetion of the 10 minutes that was the end.

I don't plan on doing anything else. 

[Romantiq]

This guy is a huge hypocrite with ZERO credibility. He has no idea what he is talking about. Waste of 5 min.

[Texhnolyze101]

I stopped reading when you said you haven't played till the ending as it stands your opinion doesn't matter as of yet.

[Dude_in_the_Room]

Louis deGuerre wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

No not sez me.  Says rules and laws.  It's against the law to threaten someone.  That line is there for a reason.  If you don't think that well then I'll wait for you picture on Mugshot.com.

I missed the bit where I was making threats. You're making two arguments, I'm only responding to the arty one that offends me. I personally would not make threats about video games, except financial ones.

Very typical reaction I must say, ignoring my reason and making me out a lover of violence. <_<

In my post I mention the death threats and whatnot as overracting.   You said "Sez you".  So how did we come to a point where this was only about you?

[addiction21]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Louis deGuerre wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

The "All we are doing is complaing" defense is nonesense as well.  You know good and well thats not the point and that theres a line that was jumped across let alone stepped.

Sez you

When Leonardo Da Vinci painted something that was not what the client was promised they told him to come back and paint what they ordered.
It didn't matter that the first painting was a masterpiece that he worked on for years.
It wasn't what the client ordered.
You wanna get artistic, do it with someone else's money and on your own time.

You are not a client.
You did not order anything.
You did not provide them money to develop the game.

Get over it.

Baffling logic. He bought the game. Presumably it isn't the first game in the series he bought. If he bought the first two, then he did indeed provide money for them to develop the game.

If the first two games hadn't sold well, do you really think EA would have green lighted a third? He may not be DIRECTLY giving them money, but he's definitely a client/patron.

He bought the game. He did not make a downpayment on the next game.

"If the first games hadn't sold so well"
Given your graph and reasoning of why DA2 is a "flop" then why is there a third one being made?

[BeefoTheBold]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

Thats the thing. 

L4D2 > boycott = sold well

Activision milking COD > boycott = sold well

Oblivion was dumbed down > sorta boycott = Skyrim sells record sales

EA messed up my Bioware experience > "boycott" tons of ****ing and whining = DA2 and ME3 both sell well

If you're going to do it then DO IT.  Boycotting isn't something you throw around like a taco.  It's how you get things done.  If you knew ME2 was dumbed down or whatever AND you know what they did with DA2 WHY DID YOU BUY ME3?????

I know what you're going to say.  Theres tons of casual gamers that don't really care buying these games.  Well then maybe you are in the minority.  It's like when Skyrim came out.  The forums had lots of ppl posting about broken games.  Well.....b/c the forums is the place for that.  There were millions of ppl that didn't have any problem with there game that had no reason or just didn't want to come to the forums.

Actually, DA2 did NOT sell well. When a SEQUEL sells half as much as the original, then it is a total and complete flop. It had a bunch of preorders based on DAO, and then when people found out that it was a mailed in piece of **** that was not at all like the game they thought they were getting, word of mouth killed the sales.



As for why people bought ME3, it is because ME2 was a good game. A VERY good game. And what parts that were not good, that the game had been TOO "streamlined" and "dumbed down" and too much RPG elements had been taken out were promised by Bioware to be fixed.

That's the thing I think you, and a lot of others, miss. One of the reasons, perhaps THE BIGGEST REASON why people are ticked about the ME3 ending is that they feel that they were lied to.

Before I even bother dealing with the latest "vocal minority" BS comment, let me ask you a third time.

Do you think it is premature for you to be here, defending Bioware and their ending, when you have not even seen it?

While you're thinking about answering that, please don't make numbers up. All available evidence, from online polls to user Metacritic ratings, say that YOU are the minority. You can't, on the one hand, say that the reaction is over the top and excessive and then say it's nothing but a few people. Those are mutually exclusive concepts.

Amazing......out of 5 or 6 games you found 1 that I was wrong about......you got me. 

I'm NOT in the minority.  Before I entertain the reason why I'll say this: don't use online polls and metacritic crap to think you have evidence.  AGAIN the internet is THE place for fans to **** about things.  There are millions of ppl who are at the very least just saying "Ahh, that ending wasn't that great, but it was a fun game." 

Do you honestly think the reaction of this type is common??  Do you actually think metacritic is viable??  There were ppl ranting about the game 2 hours after  it's release.....don't even give me that crap as evidence.

As for me thinking it's premature...that goes along with me not being in the minority.  I don't have a stance on THE ENDING.  I have a stance on the reaction that I think is hurting gaming as a whole. 

If I play this game to the end and hate the ending I WILL come here and complain.  1 thread.  1 small paragraph.  Then I'll be done.  Why?  B/c (taking into account that the rest of the 40 hours is like the first 3 I've played) I would have played a highly fun game with ONLY the excpetion of the 10 minutes that was the end.

I don't plan on doing anything else. 

What do you want? A doctoral thesis on the state of the industry? I'm on a Bioware forum. I responded with data on the Bioware examples you listed. I don't know the first thing about your other games because most of them are of no interest to me.

As for my not using online polls or metacritic data...at least it's something. What do you have? You've got nothing in the way of evidence. When confronted with my evidence you ignore and dismiss it.

I gave you sales data and I gave you poll/user critic data. You've given me putting your hands over your ears and repeating "You're wrong! You're the minority!"

I may well be wrong. It's certainly possible and I'm open to being convinced so, but you have yet to put forth any evidence that contradicts mine.

But here's a series question to consider: If I was the minority, if this wasn't a SERIOUS issue for Bioware, do you really think that their founder would be issuing statements? Would they be promising "new content initiatives" to address the concerns?

Even if you dismiss all the quantitative evidence I've suggested as biased, the fact of the matter is that the anecdotal evidence suggests I'm the majority as well.

And how are customers insisting that companies be held responsible for the promises that they've made bad for the industry?

[Dude_in_the_Room]

BanditGR wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

Louis deGuerre wrote...

Art defense is nonsense.
We were on repeated occasions promised things that the game would deliver
These were not delivered.
Game is a great dishwasher...but i ordered a fridge.
Art has nothing to do with this but is a nice shield to hide behind as it makes consumers who complain look like bookburning evil barbarians who like tolitarian military regimes.

The "All we are doing is complaing" defense is nonesense as well.  You know good and well thats not the point and that theres a line that was jumped across let alone stepped.

And those that have jumped that line are making an idiot out of themselves. Your mistake is generalizing and trying to paint all the complaints in the same negative/destructive criticism light. We've seen it before and we'll see it again in the future. The story forum is filled with TONS of threads, youtube videos and whatnot where fans are analyzing the endings, providing feedback, theories and suggestions in a constructive manner. They've been doing this from day one, hell even before day one, when the endings were datamined.

All in all there is a difference between people providing valid complaints in a civil manner and mindless barbarians demanding that something is altered to their own specification. Unfortunately, a fanbase, any fanbase contains a little bit of both.

My main beef is not the few incidents of poor judgment.  My gripe is with everyone complaining and whining and this and that and THEN.....they go out and buy ME3.

Even if they said they would fix it....with knowing EA, knowing how the gaming market is working now-a-days, knowing DA2 and ME2, why would you not wait and just hear about it first?

I'm not saying don't complain or what have you, but if you think it deserved to retribution then why didn't you do it when it counted?

[Legbiter]

People making the 'artistic integrity' argument are defending incompetence or indifference in the name of art.

The audience does not owe the artist something. It's the other way around. This isn't to say you can't subvert the audience's expectations -- but subverting is not the same as ignoring or failing to understand. The artist owes the audience something for their time, and there are tried-and-true ways of achieving this.

If something doesn't work without the audience having to appeal to Art Itself as some kind of ineffable, infallible authority, then it's failed as art.

[BeefoTheBold]

addiction21 wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Louis deGuerre wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

The "All we are doing is complaing" defense is nonesense as well.  You know good and well thats not the point and that theres a line that was jumped across let alone stepped.

Sez you

When Leonardo Da Vinci painted something that was not what the client was promised they told him to come back and paint what they ordered.
It didn't matter that the first painting was a masterpiece that he worked on for years.
It wasn't what the client ordered.
You wanna get artistic, do it with someone else's money and on your own time.

You are not a client.
You did not order anything.
You did not provide them money to develop the game.

Get over it.

Baffling logic. He bought the game. Presumably it isn't the first game in the series he bought. If he bought the first two, then he did indeed provide money for them to develop the game.

If the first two games hadn't sold well, do you really think EA would have green lighted a third? He may not be DIRECTLY giving them money, but he's definitely a client/patron.

He bought the game. He did not make a downpayment on the next game.

"If the first games hadn't sold so well"
Given your graph and reasoning of why DA2 is a "flop" then why is there a third one being made?

His buying the game IS his downpayment on the next game.

As to your other question, I would assume because the argument was made in a boardroom somewhere that if they make DA3 more like DAO, then it will SELL more like DAO. You'll note that the expansion for DA2 WAS cancelled.

Modifié par BeefoTheBold, 29 mars 2012 - 10:22 .

[Louis deGuerre]

By your reasoning the first game should have been handed out free.

Play the ending and we'll talk again...oh wait we won't lolol

[What a Succulent Ass]

So. You are defending the ending that you haven't seen yet.

I'm glad I wasted my time here.

[SalsaDMA]

addiction21 wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Louis deGuerre wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

The "All we are doing is complaing" defense is nonesense as well.  You know good and well thats not the point and that theres a line that was jumped across let alone stepped.

Sez you

When Leonardo Da Vinci painted something that was not what the client was promised they told him to come back and paint what they ordered.
It didn't matter that the first painting was a masterpiece that he worked on for years.
It wasn't what the client ordered.
You wanna get artistic, do it with someone else's money and on your own time.

You are not a client.
You did not order anything.
You did not provide them money to develop the game.

Get over it.

Baffling logic. He bought the game. Presumably it isn't the first game in the series he bought. If he bought the first two, then he did indeed provide money for them to develop the game.

If the first two games hadn't sold well, do you really think EA would have green lighted a third? He may not be DIRECTLY giving them money, but he's definitely a client/patron.

He bought the game. He did not make a downpayment on the next game.

"If the first games hadn't sold so well"
Given your graph and reasoning of why DA2 is a "flop" then why is there a third one being made?

What do you say about the ones that pre-ordered the game then?

[SalsaDMA]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

BanditGR wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

Louis deGuerre wrote...

Art defense is nonsense.
We were on repeated occasions promised things that the game would deliver
These were not delivered.
Game is a great dishwasher...but i ordered a fridge.
Art has nothing to do with this but is a nice shield to hide behind as it makes consumers who complain look like bookburning evil barbarians who like tolitarian military regimes.

The "All we are doing is complaing" defense is nonesense as well.  You know good and well thats not the point and that theres a line that was jumped across let alone stepped.

And those that have jumped that line are making an idiot out of themselves. Your mistake is generalizing and trying to paint all the complaints in the same negative/destructive criticism light. We've seen it before and we'll see it again in the future. The story forum is filled with TONS of threads, youtube videos and whatnot where fans are analyzing the endings, providing feedback, theories and suggestions in a constructive manner. They've been doing this from day one, hell even before day one, when the endings were datamined.

All in all there is a difference between people providing valid complaints in a civil manner and mindless barbarians demanding that something is altered to their own specification. Unfortunately, a fanbase, any fanbase contains a little bit of both.

My main beef is not the few incidents of poor judgment.  My gripe is with everyone complaining and whining and this and that and THEN.....they go out and buy ME3.

Even if they said they would fix it....with knowing EA, knowing how the gaming market is working now-a-days, knowing DA2 and ME2, why would you not wait and just hear about it first?

I'm not saying don't complain or what have you, but if you think it deserved to retribution then why didn't you do it when it counted?

Stop asuming things.

You are acting just like some corporate suits right now, in asuming that all customers are just dumb cash cows.

Here's a newsflash: Some are, some aren't.

If you continue treating everyone based on a part, you're just predjudiced. Andhonestly, if there is one thing I can't stand, it's predjudice.<_<

[Dude_in_the_Room]

@aLucidMind and everyone else that can't read. I'm not defending the ending. Stop playing the victim.

@ BeefoTold: You are doing the same thing then. I gave you evidence of 5 other games and you're ignoring them. I gave you concrete reasons why metacritic fails when viable. Yet, you cling to those b/c it supports you argument.

[Artemis_Entrari]

aberdash wrote...

So basically the fact that people complain about bad things is why we cant have nice things? Even reaper logic makes more sense than that.

Haha that was actually the first thing that came to my mind.  The author's logic sounds like StarGodMagicChild's logic.

[Dude_in_the_Room]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

BanditGR wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

Louis deGuerre wrote...

Art defense is nonsense.
We were on repeated occasions promised things that the game would deliver
These were not delivered.
Game is a great dishwasher...but i ordered a fridge.
Art has nothing to do with this but is a nice shield to hide behind as it makes consumers who complain look like bookburning evil barbarians who like tolitarian military regimes.

The "All we are doing is complaing" defense is nonesense as well.  You know good and well thats not the point and that theres a line that was jumped across let alone stepped.

And those that have jumped that line are making an idiot out of themselves. Your mistake is generalizing and trying to paint all the complaints in the same negative/destructive criticism light. We've seen it before and we'll see it again in the future. The story forum is filled with TONS of threads, youtube videos and whatnot where fans are analyzing the endings, providing feedback, theories and suggestions in a constructive manner. They've been doing this from day one, hell even before day one, when the endings were datamined.

All in all there is a difference between people providing valid complaints in a civil manner and mindless barbarians demanding that something is altered to their own specification. Unfortunately, a fanbase, any fanbase contains a little bit of both.

My main beef is not the few incidents of poor judgment.  My gripe is with everyone complaining and whining and this and that and THEN.....they go out and buy ME3.

Even if they said they would fix it....with knowing EA, knowing how the gaming market is working now-a-days, knowing DA2 and ME2, why would you not wait and just hear about it first?

I'm not saying don't complain or what have you, but if you think it deserved to retribution then why didn't you do it when it counted?

Stop asuming things.

You are acting just like some corporate suits right now, in asuming that all customers are just dumb cash cows.

Here's a newsflash: Some are, some aren't.

If you continue treating everyone based on a part, you're just predjudiced. Andhonestly, if there is one thing I can't stand, it's predjudice.<_<

How am I assuming?  Did ppl not preorder this game?  Did this game not sell well?  Did NO ONE who complained aout DA2 and ME2 buy this game?  Are the games I mentioned not evidence?