Actually, I think I'll reply to BeefoTheBold this way. This is what he reminds me of.
Modifié par Dude_in_the_Room, 29 mars 2012 - 11:39 .
Bob takes on the ME3 frenzy. "This is why we can't have nice things"
Débuté par
Dude_in_the_Room
, mars 29 2012 09:02
#76
Posté 29 mars 2012 - 11:29
Dude_in_the_Room
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Actually, I think I'll reply to BeefoTheBold this way. This is what he reminds me of.
Retour en haut
#77
Posté 29 mars 2012 - 11:32
Gatt9
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Dude_in_the_Room wrote...
Gatt9 wrote...
So the guy whose videos are hosted by Escapist, a website that gives 10/10 to a game just because the letters EA are on the box, is joining in the "You fans are entitled and selfish!" thing?
Perhaps Escapist just realized that their site one of the first people are going to quit going to?
I'd like to see where you're getting that from.....considering Yahtzee belittles every game he reviews in some way or another.
I didn't say Yahtzee, I said Escapist, they're two different things. As an example...
Dragon Age 2 - 100
DAO Awakening - 100
NFL 11 - 100
The site hands out perfects like candy. I question whether or not they even open the box, or if they even get a box.
#78
Posté 29 mars 2012 - 11:34
Njald
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Again with the "risk myth". The only "risk" bioware took when shipping the game with this ending wasn't the risk of artistic choice, it was the risk of being caught in unfactual advertising and shoddy craftsmanship.
They got caught. That's a good thing. We Should demand quality in our games and if MovieBob isn't informed about the factual circumstances I'm sure you guys can email him detailing that "risk taking" with creative outlets isn't the same as "producing rushed, poor writing and hoping no one complains". it's atleast not risktaking Movie Bob should defend.
I for one won't bother trying to inform him of his mistake, he is allowed to be wrong and illinformed. Even if it hurts his product (his show).
They got caught. That's a good thing. We Should demand quality in our games and if MovieBob isn't informed about the factual circumstances I'm sure you guys can email him detailing that "risk taking" with creative outlets isn't the same as "producing rushed, poor writing and hoping no one complains". it's atleast not risktaking Movie Bob should defend.
I for one won't bother trying to inform him of his mistake, he is allowed to be wrong and illinformed. Even if it hurts his product (his show).
#79
Posté 29 mars 2012 - 11:36
Il Divo
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Cthulhu42 wrote...
He liked changing Watchmen's ending? Really?Deflagratio wrote...
Movie Bob didn't seem to mind the changing of Watchmen's ending. This smells of hypocrite.
I'd agree with that. While the graphic novel is (without a doubt) superior in almost every way, the removal of the giant squid was one of the better calls Zach Snyder made. On screen, it would've looked fairly ridiculous, despite the foreshadowing in the graphic novel. Dr. Manhattan is already an established element and the idea of uniting all the major powers of the world works better with the mystery attack on multiple cities across the world, rather than just New York.
#80
Posté 29 mars 2012 - 11:38
Dude_in_the_Room
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Yahtzee is a part of the escapists....so I doubt they care too much about selling out.Gatt9 wrote...
Dude_in_the_Room wrote...
Gatt9 wrote...
So the guy whose videos are hosted by Escapist, a website that gives 10/10 to a game just because the letters EA are on the box, is joining in the "You fans are entitled and selfish!" thing?
Perhaps Escapist just realized that their site one of the first people are going to quit going to?
I'd like to see where you're getting that from.....considering Yahtzee belittles every game he reviews in some way or another.
I didn't say Yahtzee, I said Escapist, they're two different things. As an example...
Dragon Age 2 - 100
DAO Awakening - 100
NFL 11 - 100
The site hands out perfects like candy. I question whether or not they even open the box, or if they even get a box.
#81
Posté 29 mars 2012 - 11:40
Njald
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Il Divo wrote...
Cthulhu42 wrote...
He liked changing Watchmen's ending? Really?Deflagratio wrote...
Movie Bob didn't seem to mind the changing of Watchmen's ending. This smells of hypocrite.
I'd agree with that. While the graphic novel is (without a doubt) superior in almost every way, the removal of the giant squid was one of the better calls Zach Snyder made. On screen, it would've looked fairly ridiculous, despite the foreshadowing in the graphic novel. Dr. Manhattan is already an established element and the idea of uniting all the major powers of the world works better with the mystery attack on multiple cities across the world, rather than just New York.
Someone complained about replacing squid with DrManhattanwouldn't unite the world as mcuh as unite it vs USA, for whom the Blueman had been working all this time. But since the narrative worked and most people coming out of the theatres enjoyed it I would say it didn't break any suspension of disbelief.
I also felt the story was sleeker and better designed with DrWillyOut becoming the patsy.
#82
Posté 29 mars 2012 - 11:41
Il Divo
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addiction21 wrote...
Then watch this http://www.escapistm...nother-Watchmen
I like MovieBoB and especially The Big Picture series. If your kneejerk reaction is to say "he is flat out wrong and a idiot" then I suggest you spend some time and go thru the rest of his videos. I agree and disagree wtih him but its always his thoughts and they are put forth well.
http://www.escapistm...Words-for-Nerds
Number 3 and 4 fits the forums but 5 stikes my as something we see too much on the internet. Especially when it comes to the Company vs Consumer.
I liked the Watchmen vid, and agree with a good amount of it, especially about the movie's ending.
But I'm still inclined to disagree with his "crossing the line" arguments. To me, the only line there really is to cross is that of rational demands vs. "foaming from the mouth" crazy demands. I don't see an issue with arguing for a new ending (and support it), it's only when death threats strike that things get out of hand.
I just don't see any art as untouchable. There will always be artists/writers out there who will take risks and they'll pay off. But in Bioware's case, the numbers came up unlucky.
#83
Posté 29 mars 2012 - 11:43
Il Divo
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Njald wrote...
Someone complained about replacing squid with DrManhattanwouldn't unite the world as mcuh as unite it vs USA, for whom the Blueman had been working all this time. But since the narrative worked and most people coming out of the theatres enjoyed it I would say it didn't break any suspension of disbelief.
I also felt the story was sleeker and better designed with DrWillyOut becoming the patsy.
To an extent, I could see the point. But I think, whether people might hold the U.S. as responsible, the various super powers would do whatever they could out of a desire to survive. In that case, declaring nuclear war against the U.S. while dealing with a potential God wouldn't really play to our survival instincts all that well.
I also thought alot of the CGI effects were really well done in the film, especially regarding Manhattan.
#84
Posté 29 mars 2012 - 11:48
wikkedjester
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My reply to Bob;
Bob you’re missing the Big Pitcher with the whole the Mass Effect 3 debate. Is it out of control? Yes, and I say about damn time. This may seem about the ending, but its just a rallying cry, a flag to wave, this is about the state of the gaming industry as a whole; the Day One DLC, Locked Content, Online passes, the inability to play your games with out big brother breathing down your neck, the inability to play some games at all because EA has decided to shut off the servers, Capcom locking content to sell it to you after the fact, Activision repackaging the same game over and over again.
How long do you expect the gaming community to be jerked around?
Well Bob what’s the solution?
Don’t buy? Well that seems to be the issue, people are not buying, or at least not buying new, and everyone is getting screwed, but if used games stopped do you honestly think people would buy the games new?
No, they wouldn’t buy them at all, they would wait until the Madden or CoD, or Halo, and the people that did, would further get screwed. I’m not saying that gaming should be art for the sake of art, however, don’t get up on your high hours and say we’re taking it to far saying “Artist need to be able to be artist“. No gaming is a business first and foremost, and everything they are doing is not about the “art“, but about the money. As a consumer then we have the right to demand what we were promised. Not with “don’t like, don’t buy“, but with protest.
This is the gamer revolution Bob, the gamer taking back the game.
Now I know what your saying; “games are art.” Bob you should know better than anyone that its not the game maker that decides if it art, sure its artistic, but society decides what is and is not art. But lets for a moment look at it from an artistic stand point. How would you like to spend money on a painting, in which the face has been cut out, and sold back to you for 10 bucks, you would appalled. Sell me a frame, suggest other painting to enhance the beauty of the one you’ve just bought, but don’t gut the painting and sell it to me like a jigsaw puzzle because at this point all art loses artistic integrity.
As an artist myself, who does commissioned work, and make no mistake game design is commissioned work, Pre-orders anyone? Sequels? Franchises? If I was to make a “work of art” that steeped outside my customers expectations in a bad way, they would take one look at it, laugh in my face, and not pay me, or tell me that if I wanted paid I would correct it. Now at this point, I as an artist have two options, stick to my guns and don’t eat, or do what I was asked to do. Food always wins out.
This “integrity of the artist” is a modern concept probably starting back with postmodernism, in which being the pompous poor artist was the cool thing, because it meant you only catered to the high class and anyone else should simply accept you as an artist and be grateful your wasting your time on them. And its something that has yet to disappear, but needs to.
Gaming as art still has a hell of along way to come as a form. Just because they have the whinny, ****y part down like Ken Levine does:
http://www.escapistm...His-Big-Sisters
http://www.escapistm...-Ending-Scandal
Does not mean they have grown into the rights other art from have.
Do you think the changing of things in art is new concept?
Charles Dickenson rewrote the ending of Great Expectations, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, brought back Holmes, my dear Watson, did the literary world fall apart under the precedent? No.
If games are truly art, and the teams who develop them truly artists, why should they be treated with kid’s gloves?
“There is no need to take a “constructive” attitude with talented artists, if anything, they find such an attitude more offensive. As H.L. Mencken said: “I do not object to being denounced, but I can’t abide being schoolmastered, especially by men I regard as imbeciles.” The constructive critic is a crow who takes it upon himself to educate the eagle; one who tries to force his own limitations on those who can soar far higher, unencumbered. Constructive criticism, is a “mass hallucination.” It is “inimical to the purposes of criticism as art. I’ll say it again: the point of criticism is not to improve you, but to express me. And each time I digress to offer you helpful suggestions, encouraging remarks and other pep-talk, I am not truly expressing myself. I’m merely being polite, nice, even a bit condescending — in other words, I’m being aesthetically repulsive.
-Stephen Bond
But Hell what do we know? Right? We’re just a bunch of “Clingy, Complainy, Dip-****s”?
Oh hey BTW:
The Misery jab goes both ways.
Paul comes to the conclusion that while Annie might be nuts, she's also correct about his writing. He realized that his novel about the car thief was pretentious drivel while Misery's Return, the book he only wrote to save himself from her, was probably the best thing he'd ever written.
So the fan base may be nuts, doesn’t stop them from being right.
Bob you’re missing the Big Pitcher with the whole the Mass Effect 3 debate. Is it out of control? Yes, and I say about damn time. This may seem about the ending, but its just a rallying cry, a flag to wave, this is about the state of the gaming industry as a whole; the Day One DLC, Locked Content, Online passes, the inability to play your games with out big brother breathing down your neck, the inability to play some games at all because EA has decided to shut off the servers, Capcom locking content to sell it to you after the fact, Activision repackaging the same game over and over again.
How long do you expect the gaming community to be jerked around?
Well Bob what’s the solution?
Don’t buy? Well that seems to be the issue, people are not buying, or at least not buying new, and everyone is getting screwed, but if used games stopped do you honestly think people would buy the games new?
No, they wouldn’t buy them at all, they would wait until the Madden or CoD, or Halo, and the people that did, would further get screwed. I’m not saying that gaming should be art for the sake of art, however, don’t get up on your high hours and say we’re taking it to far saying “Artist need to be able to be artist“. No gaming is a business first and foremost, and everything they are doing is not about the “art“, but about the money. As a consumer then we have the right to demand what we were promised. Not with “don’t like, don’t buy“, but with protest.
This is the gamer revolution Bob, the gamer taking back the game.
Now I know what your saying; “games are art.” Bob you should know better than anyone that its not the game maker that decides if it art, sure its artistic, but society decides what is and is not art. But lets for a moment look at it from an artistic stand point. How would you like to spend money on a painting, in which the face has been cut out, and sold back to you for 10 bucks, you would appalled. Sell me a frame, suggest other painting to enhance the beauty of the one you’ve just bought, but don’t gut the painting and sell it to me like a jigsaw puzzle because at this point all art loses artistic integrity.
As an artist myself, who does commissioned work, and make no mistake game design is commissioned work, Pre-orders anyone? Sequels? Franchises? If I was to make a “work of art” that steeped outside my customers expectations in a bad way, they would take one look at it, laugh in my face, and not pay me, or tell me that if I wanted paid I would correct it. Now at this point, I as an artist have two options, stick to my guns and don’t eat, or do what I was asked to do. Food always wins out.
This “integrity of the artist” is a modern concept probably starting back with postmodernism, in which being the pompous poor artist was the cool thing, because it meant you only catered to the high class and anyone else should simply accept you as an artist and be grateful your wasting your time on them. And its something that has yet to disappear, but needs to.
Gaming as art still has a hell of along way to come as a form. Just because they have the whinny, ****y part down like Ken Levine does:
http://www.escapistm...His-Big-Sisters
http://www.escapistm...-Ending-Scandal
Does not mean they have grown into the rights other art from have.
Do you think the changing of things in art is new concept?
Charles Dickenson rewrote the ending of Great Expectations, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, brought back Holmes, my dear Watson, did the literary world fall apart under the precedent? No.
If games are truly art, and the teams who develop them truly artists, why should they be treated with kid’s gloves?
“There is no need to take a “constructive” attitude with talented artists, if anything, they find such an attitude more offensive. As H.L. Mencken said: “I do not object to being denounced, but I can’t abide being schoolmastered, especially by men I regard as imbeciles.” The constructive critic is a crow who takes it upon himself to educate the eagle; one who tries to force his own limitations on those who can soar far higher, unencumbered. Constructive criticism, is a “mass hallucination.” It is “inimical to the purposes of criticism as art. I’ll say it again: the point of criticism is not to improve you, but to express me. And each time I digress to offer you helpful suggestions, encouraging remarks and other pep-talk, I am not truly expressing myself. I’m merely being polite, nice, even a bit condescending — in other words, I’m being aesthetically repulsive.
-Stephen Bond
But Hell what do we know? Right? We’re just a bunch of “Clingy, Complainy, Dip-****s”?
Oh hey BTW:
The Misery jab goes both ways.
Paul comes to the conclusion that while Annie might be nuts, she's also correct about his writing. He realized that his novel about the car thief was pretentious drivel while Misery's Return, the book he only wrote to save himself from her, was probably the best thing he'd ever written.
So the fan base may be nuts, doesn’t stop them from being right.
#85
Posté 29 mars 2012 - 11:50
addiction21
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Gatt9 wrote...
I didn't say Yahtzee, I said Escapist, they're two different things. As an example...
Dragon Age 2 - 100
DAO Awakening - 100
NFL 11 - 100
The site hands out perfects like candy. I question whether or not they even open the box, or if they even get a box.
http://www.escapistm...ne.com/reviews/
Then tell me why ME3 got 3.5 stars?
Why did SSX 3.5?
Why did Syndicate get 4?
Well yes Gatt reviewers do not need to agree or judge on the same criteria as you do.
#86
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 12:00
addiction21
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Il Divo wrote...
addiction21 wrote...
Then watch this http://www.escapistm...nother-Watchmen
I like MovieBoB and especially The Big Picture series. If your kneejerk reaction is to say "he is flat out wrong and a idiot" then I suggest you spend some time and go thru the rest of his videos. I agree and disagree wtih him but its always his thoughts and they are put forth well.
http://www.escapistm...Words-for-Nerds
Number 3 and 4 fits the forums but 5 stikes my as something we see too much on the internet. Especially when it comes to the Company vs Consumer.
I liked the Watchmen vid, and agree with a good amount of it, especially about the movie's ending.
But I'm still inclined to disagree with his "crossing the line" arguments. To me, the only line there really is to cross is that of rational demands vs. "foaming from the mouth" crazy demands. I don't see an issue with arguing for a new ending (and support it), it's only when death threats strike that things get out of hand.
I just don't see any art as untouchable. There will always be artists/writers out there who will take risks and they'll pay off. But in Bioware's case, the numbers came up unlucky.
Video games are art IMHO. There is good art and bad art. Art is not untouchable and I agree to a point. That point being tome BioWare has made it clear to me this is the ending that they are going with so they need to do a damned great job at making it fit.
I always knew a "crucible" was coming. There was no other way the Reapers could be dealt with how they have presented them but it all threw me for a bit of a loop.
As far as MovieBob goes I believe he does good and fair work. Watch the rest out there especially his "Big Picture" stuff. You dont have to agree with it all (and I dont) but its good.
#87
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 12:09
Scott2998
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With the amount of people getting defensive in this thread I would say the OP is right.
#88
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 12:18
Arkitekt
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This guy is obsolete. Stuck with 20th century logic. Frak him.
#89
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 12:22
Arkitekt
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addiction21 wrote...
Gatt9 wrote...
I didn't say Yahtzee, I said Escapist, they're two different things. As an example...
Dragon Age 2 - 100
DAO Awakening - 100
NFL 11 - 100
The site hands out perfects like candy. I question whether or not they even open the box, or if they even get a box.
http://www.escapistm...ne.com/reviews/
Then tell me why ME3 got 3.5 stars?
Why did SSX 3.5?
Why did Syndicate get 4?
Well yes Gatt reviewers do not need to agree or judge on the same criteria as you do.
Correction, ME3 got 4.5 stars. ME3 multiplayer got 3.5 stars.
#90
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 12:51
stormloader
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wow, more teenie whiners. stop taking estrogen injects
hope this helps
hope this helps
#92
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 01:00
MelfinaofOutlawStar
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Legbiter wrote...
People making the 'artistic integrity' argument are defending incompetence or indifference in the name of art.
The audience does not owe the artist something. It's the other way around. This isn't to say you can't subvert the audience's expectations -- but subverting is not the same as ignoring or failing to understand. The artist owes the audience something for their time, and there are tried-and-true ways of achieving this.
If something doesn't work without the audience having to appeal to Art Itself as some kind of ineffable, infallible authority, then it's failed as art.
They lost the "artistic integrity" argument when you have a IGN correspondent in your game and put breasts on EDI.
Oh wait, I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm not getting their "vision".
#93
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 01:04
stormloader
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EDI decided to "CONTROL" the breasts because "it was necessary"
#94
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 01:08
Dude_in_the_Room
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I don't know what you're getting at really, but:MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
Legbiter wrote...
People making the 'artistic integrity' argument are defending incompetence or indifference in the name of art.
The audience does not owe the artist something. It's the other way around. This isn't to say you can't subvert the audience's expectations -- but subverting is not the same as ignoring or failing to understand. The artist owes the audience something for their time, and there are tried-and-true ways of achieving this.
If something doesn't work without the audience having to appeal to Art Itself as some kind of ineffable, infallible authority, then it's failed as art.
They lost the "artistic integrity" argument when you have a IGN correspondent in your game and put breasts on EDI.
Oh wait, I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm not getting their "vision".
Is this coming from the same ppl that "like" the "artistic value" of The Witcher games with idiotic and uneccesary nudity?
Modifié par Dude_in_the_Room, 30 mars 2012 - 01:09 .
#95
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 01:23
viperabyss
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I think you should finish the game, and judge for yourself.Dude_in_the_Room wrote...
No spoilers
Mass Effect stuff happens about half way through though the whole thing is reflecting on the fans as a mass.
I haven't played to the ending yet, but I can't help feel that there is somewhat of an overreation to this whole thing.
#96
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 01:32
MelfinaofOutlawStar
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Dude_in_the_Room wrote...
I don't know what you're getting at really, but:MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
Legbiter wrote...
People making the 'artistic integrity' argument are defending incompetence or indifference in the name of art.
The audience does not owe the artist something. It's the other way around. This isn't to say you can't subvert the audience's expectations -- but subverting is not the same as ignoring or failing to understand. The artist owes the audience something for their time, and there are tried-and-true ways of achieving this.
If something doesn't work without the audience having to appeal to Art Itself as some kind of ineffable, infallible authority, then it's failed as art.
They lost the "artistic integrity" argument when you have a IGN correspondent in your game and put breasts on EDI.
Oh wait, I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm not getting their "vision".
Is this coming from the same ppl that "like" the "artistic value" of The Witcher games with idiotic and uneccesary nudity?
No because I never claimed The Witcher to be art and I happen to like the Pokemon "Gotta Catch'em All" sex cards.
#97
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 01:44
jimbo32
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Dude_in_the_Room wrote...
B/c I have a little common sense and death threats is way overreacting. Filing a complaint is not as bad, but really? Thats going to prove nothing.
It's actually getting to the point where whenever gamers don't like something a dev or publisher has done....we HAVE to take serious action to get heard. Why? Not b/c thats what it's suppose to take, but b/c our reactions are growing and growing and growing into these sorts of things where we HAVE to seriously overreact.
In other words, we made it so bad that everytime something we disagree with come around and we say "boycott!" it means nothing and now it has to come to death threats and frivilous legal battles to get our point across.
Ok, this is more than once I've heard about death threats, but I've yet to see any evidence of it other than rumours. Link please?
And by the way, ALL OF US thought that it was an overreaction until we actually experienced the ending. You're not qualified to comment until you finish the game.
#98
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 01:47
MalevoIence
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I like movie bob, but I've watched All of his gameoverthinker videos on his site and I can easily say that he's very swayed towards public opinion. He sided with the people who said Resident Evil 5 was racist for God sakes. He sides with whichever side will give him public praise as if he was standing up for something. Episode 1 of the gameoverthinker he bluntly tosses out there he's egotistical and is doing this to get "nerd praise" his words, like all the other online game reviewers. And says that all throughout the series with even some vids blatantly promoting his new gig (well not new now) at The Escapist as "Movie Bob"
Movie Bob's Game Overthinker days
http://gameoverthinker.blogspot.com/
Movie Bob's Game Overthinker days
http://gameoverthinker.blogspot.com/
Modifié par MalevoIence, 30 mars 2012 - 01:48 .
#100
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 01:51
vasht
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ME3 is exemplary to Bioware's new "less is more" outlook.
sorry, cant say ive enjoyed what little game there was compared to the first 2
sorry, cant say ive enjoyed what little game there was compared to the first 2
