172 réponses à ce sujet

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

MalevoIence wrote...

I like movie bob, but I've watched All of his gameoverthinker videos on his site and I can easily say that he's very swayed towards public opinion. He sided with the people who said Resident Evil 5 was racist for God sakes.

....There are no words.

[justlogme]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

Louis deGuerre wrote...

Art defense is nonsense.
We were on repeated occasions promised things that the game would deliver
These were not delivered.
Game is a great dishwasher...but i ordered a fridge.
Art has nothing to do with this but is a nice shield to hide behind as it makes consumers who complain look like bookburning evil barbarians who like tolitarian military regimes.

The "All we are doing is complaing" defense is nonesense as well.  You know good and well thats not the point and that theres a line that was jumped across let alone stepped.

  So basically your stating instead of complaining or petitioning for a change we should simply vote with our wallets and boycott Bioware games till they can somehow figure out how to make a game with a ending that not a totally rushed piece of crap:? after all nothing ever positive comes from just accepting something your not happy with hoping it will just magically improve on its own the next time.

[Rafe34]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

No spoilers

Mass Effect stuff happens about half way through though the whole thing is reflecting on the fans as a mass.


I haven't played to the ending yet, but I can't help feel that there is somewhat of an overreation to this whole thing.

Then your opinion is invalid.

Play to the ending, then come on and talk about how good/bad it is.

I'm not trying to be mean, I am dead serious. Most people think the same thing until they actually play the ending.

Modifié par Rafe34, 30 mars 2012 - 02:08 .

[Rafe34]

MalevoIence wrote...

I like movie bob, but I've watched All of his gameoverthinker videos on his site and I can easily say that he's very swayed towards public opinion. He sided with the people who said Resident Evil 5 was racist for God sakes.

I thought he said that it made him slightly uncomfortable, and he thought people saying it was racist had a point.

I didn't think he went so far as to actually agree with them... did he?

[Mad-Max90]

The reason we can't have nice things?!? It's people NOT complaining about problems that they have that keeps us from getting nice things, if something is done in a poor way and in a way they said it was not going to be done in, then we the customers have a right to call out their BS and complain. Whos to say that by us complaining something marvelous can come out of it?

[The Razman]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

@aLucidMind and everyone else that can't read. I'm not defending the ending. Stop playing the victim.

@ BeefoTold: You are doing the same thing then. I gave you evidence of 5 other games and you're ignoring them. I gave you concrete reasons why metacritic fails when viable. Yet, you cling to those b/c it supports you argument.

No, you simply said stuff like L4D2 > Boycott.

You gave no sales sumbers. No ratings. No context. No supporting evidence.

This is a Bioware forum. I'm talking about the Bioware games.

But, for what it's worth, in a general sense I would say that this is the most organized and widespread fan protest I've ever seen in the industry. I think it is a GOOD SIGN. And if you want another game that I actually know about, I have played both Oblivion and Skyrim.

Skyrim had plenty of information before release that suggested it was reversing the trends/mistakes from Oblivion. It was a deeper, more complex, richer game. I imagine gamers watched the reviews, used this Internet thing that you're so dismissive of, and concluded that their input on what was wrong with Oblivion had been listed to and corrected.

And for the most part it was.

L4D2 > L4D2 sales and boycott info

Skyrim > Sales

As for the rest you can look them up if you honestly think I'm lying.  I'm not going to do something for you that you should do if you're the one trying to prove me wrong.

As for Skyrim being deeper....you are wrong.  Morrowind is still deeper blah blah than Skryim.  So I don't know where you're getting that from.  Either way...to save face for what it's worth, I think Skryim is more fun than Morrowind.

Okay, if anything, this disproves your point because it shows the boycott was EFFECTIVE.

Wiki wrote...
In response to these complaints, Valve marketer Doug Lombardi stated that the announcement of Left 4 Dead 2 at E3 should not be taken to indicate that Valve would no longer support the first game.[65][69]
He asked the community to "trust [them] a little bit," and told them
that while their team was eager to get new material to players of Left 4 Dead, they determined that a sequel would be the best option for several reasons:[33] the demand for new campaigns, enemies and weapons could not be met as a simple DLC;[33]
both Faliszek and project lead Tom Leonard found that too much of the
content relied on each other, making it very difficult to release
incremental patches in the same style as Team Fortress 2;[26][27] the development team liked the idea of rolling up the content into a sequel to be released a year after Left 4 Dead's release.[26]
Faliszek stated that Newell was skeptical of the idea when the team
brought the sequel forward, but still allowed the project to go through.[27]
In September 2009, Valve flew two of the boycott group's most prominent members to Valve, in order to playtest Left 4 Dead 2; the two felt that the sequel was well done.[70] This event, through a series of correspondences made in jest, shortly led to Valve's Gabe Newell and designer Erik Johnson flying to Australia to visit "Joe W-A", a Left 4 Dead modder.
Newell jokingly reported that Valve was "boycotting" Joe's new mod for
the game when Joe asked when he would be flown to Valve in the same
manner as the Left 4 Dead 2 boycotters, but whimsically offered
that if Joe was to pay to fly him to the country, he would take a look
at it. Joe was able to raise the required funds, $3000,
through donations through his website, though ultimately Newell paid
for the trip himself, with Joe's collected donations going to the Child's Play charity.[71][72]
On October 14, 2009, the initiators of the boycott group announced
that they had ended their boycott and were shutting down the 40,000-plus
group because Valve was retaining their promise of additional content
and fixes for Left 4 Dead, such as the recent release of the
"Crash Course" campaign. These gamers also believed that the group
itself, losing its purpose, was now being used just to bad-mouth Valve
and other players.[73]
In a video interview posted on October 29, 2009, Gabe Newell said, "for
people who joined the Boycott Group on Steam ... they're actually
pre-ordering the product at a higher rate than Left 4 Dead 1 owners who
weren't in the boycott"

In other words, the boycott didn't fail. It got the results it wanted and was discontinued as a result.

Same thing with Skyrim. The developer listened to the fanbase and made changes and that's why Skyrim sold well.

So why on earth should Bioware customers not do the same thing?

Um ... I was part of the L4D1 + 2 community. I was there. It didn't shutdown because it achieved anything. It shut down because the game came out, it turned out to be awesome, and nobody stuck to it.

Wherever you got that paragraph from ... is revisionist history.

[Dude_in_the_Room]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

People making the 'artistic integrity' argument are defending incompetence or indifference in the name of art.

The audience does not owe the artist something. It's the other way around. This isn't to say you can't subvert the audience's expectations -- but subverting is not the same as ignoring or failing to understand. The artist owes the audience something for their time, and there are tried-and-true ways of achieving this.

If something doesn't work without the audience having to appeal to Art Itself as some kind of ineffable, infallible authority, then it's failed as art.

They lost the "artistic integrity" argument when you have a IGN correspondent in your game and put breasts on EDI.

Oh wait, I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm not getting their "vision".

I don't know what you're getting at really, but:

Is this coming from the same ppl that "like" the "artistic value" of The Witcher games with idiotic and uneccesary nudity?

No because I never claimed The Witcher to be art and I happen to like the Pokemon "Gotta Catch'em All" sex cards.

Either all games are art or none are.  So if ME3 loses it's "artistic integrity" b/c of EDI than I don't see how either of those 2 examples you gave are any different.  You like Pokemon sex cards yet giving a character from the second game a "body" is "off the mark".

@Jimbo32:  I don't have a link to the death threats.  If you want to find them, look for yourself.  I'm not a "go get" boy.

[translationninja]

Why are people still feeding these trolls?

Why would you even take a person serious that opens a statement with "I haven't experienced XYZ but I can judge whether your reaction to XYZ is appropriate."

trolololololololol....

[Dude_in_the_Room]

Rafe34 wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

No spoilers

Mass Effect stuff happens about half way through though the whole thing is reflecting on the fans as a mass.


I haven't played to the ending yet, but I can't help feel that there is somewhat of an overreation to this whole thing.

Then your opinion is invalid.

Play to the ending, then come on and talk about how good/bad it is.

I'm not trying to be mean, I am dead serious. Most people think the same thing until they actually play the ending.

You do realize there are like 4 pages on this topic, right?  If you read some of them you'd know my actual "beef" is not with the ending being good or not.

Edit: same goes for translationninja

Modifié par Dude_in_the_Room, 30 mars 2012 - 02:15 .

[MalevoIence]

Rafe34 wrote...

MalevoIence wrote...

I like movie bob, but I've watched All of his gameoverthinker videos on his site and I can easily say that he's very swayed towards public opinion. He sided with the people who said Resident Evil 5 was racist for God sakes.

I thought he said that it made him slightly uncomfortable, and he thought people saying it was racist had a point.

I didn't think he went so far as to actually agree with them... did he?

Saying that "the people saying it's racist have a point", is agreeing with them in my book.  If he didn't agree with them, he would of said "they don't have a leg to stand on". Even tries to dissect Resident Evil 5 to support their point.

(Seeing as how you're taking a portion of what Im saying, here it is again)

I like movie bob, but I've watched All of his gameoverthinker videos on his site and I can easily say that he's very swayed towards public opinion. He sided with the people who said Resident Evil 5 was racist for God sakes. He sides with whichever side will give him public praise as if he was standing up for something. Episode 1 of the gameoverthinker he bluntly tosses out there he's egotistical and is doing this to get "nerd praise" his words, like all the other online game reviewers. And says that all throughout the series with even some vids blatantly promoting his new gig (well not new now) at The Escapist as "Movie Bob"

Movie Bob's Game Overthinker days
http://gameoverthinker.blogspot.com/  

Modifié par MalevoIence, 30 mars 2012 - 02:30 .

[Banelash]

more like "This is why we can't have lazy things". Get lazy and do a copy and paste , and masses aren't stupid enough to not see your sloppiness.

[Rafe34]

Dridengx wrote...

DA2 sold more at launch and still sold well. you can't deny that. Not to mention your graph isn't even showing PC sales.. you know.. where Bioware's fanbase originated. not to mention that's an america only graph lol nice try

The disparity is worse on PC.

Most of us PC gamers feel, (rightly or wrongly), DA2 was specifically marketed to console gamers because of the dumbed down system. After we got ahold of the demo, we were extremely wary.

I bought it, because DAO was such a great game.

The thing with DA2, is we weren't lied to about it. It was still a good game, just not anywhere near Bioware's usual fare.

ME3, I play the demo, and I'm really liking it. Even the MP, I loved the MP, and I was very concerned about that. Im playing ME3 and Im loving it. They added back in the customization of guns, a bit, though I still like having poison ammo and CDR ammo, etc, even if they really didn't make sense. But still, I can live with the compromise. It was a great game. And then wammo! Endings.

So, so terribly bad. How I was supposed to know that and thus not buy the game? I trusted Bioware to tell me the truth. They did not.

You can sure as hell bet that ME3 is the last Bioware game I pre-order, at the very least. I'll wait till people I trust tell me it's a good game, people that looking at them now, could have told me ME3's ending was so terribly it invalidated the entire series. But the fact of the matter is, I bought ME3 because ME1 and ME2 were great games, and according to what Bioware said AND the demo, ME3 looked like it was going to be a great game.

And it was. But the ending was so bad that it destroyed the series. I have no desire to go back and play ME. I even tried to go back and play ME1, start another Shepard and keep Kaidan alive this time, as I had never kept him alive before. I couldn't get past the Citadel part. 

I've uninstalled all three games, and I am done with the franchise if BW doesn't fix the endings. Probably done with BW as a whole. There has never been anything like the outcry there is with ME3.

[Dude_in_the_Room]

Admiral Picard wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

You do realize there are like 4 pages on this topic, right?  If you read some of them you'd know my actual "beef" is not with the ending being good or not.

Edit: same goes for translationninja

I think he does Dude. He saying if you played all the Mass Effect games, then got that ending, you mite understand why people are so annoyed.

But thats what ppl aren't getting.  I'm not saying you shouldn't be mad about the ending.  If it sucks, I myself will come on here and say my peice and then whatever happens happens.

What I'm saying is that MOST of the ppl here have stated that they had concerns about this game with referals to DA2 and ME2.....2 games!!!  Not once....TWICE. 

And yet ppl still bought it.  Even if they were lied to it's still disheartenning.  I would think ppl would have learned with all that is going on in the game market. 

This is not how you make an example of them.

[The Razman]

Rafe34 wrote...

The disparity is worse on PC.

That's sort of a lie, considering there aren't any sales figures for the PC version. There's only retail sales (which on the PC these days amount to a small percentage of total sales, most of its being done digitally now where we don't have access to sales figures).

[Rafe34]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...
Either all games are art or none are.

Bull****.

Let me explain why with another example. "Either all paintings are art, or none are."

A child's stick figure drawing is not art. A masterpiece by Da Vinci is art.

The Witcher games are based on the novels of Andrej (Last name that I'm not even going to attempt to spell) from Poland. In his novels, there is a lot of sexuality regarding Witchers, mostly because Witchers cannot carry disease and they cannot get a woman pregnant. In his universe then, it makes sense that Witchers can pretty much get whoever they want.

The game may have been overboard trying to get the point across, but it makes sense and stays faithful to the novels, in most parts. (Keep in mind I've only read the first two, since I don't read Polish and the others have not been translated into English yet.)

ME3's endings do NOT remain faithful to the series, and they don't make sense. Several points in the ending logically contradict what occurred previously. THAT is the problem.

[The Razman]

Rafe34 wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...
Either all games are art or none are.

Bull****.

Let me explain why with another example. "Either all paintings are art, or none are."

A child's stick figure drawing is not art. A masterpiece by Da Vinci is art.

The Witcher games are based on the novels of Andrej (Last name that I'm not even going to attempt to spell) from Poland. In his novels, there is a lot of sexuality regarding Witchers, mostly because Witchers cannot carry disease and they cannot get a woman pregnant. In his universe then, it makes sense that Witchers can pretty much get whoever they want.

The game may have been overboard trying to get the point across, but it makes sense and stays faithful to the novels, in most parts. (Keep in mind I've only read the first two, since I don't read Polish and the others have not been translated into English yet.)

ME3's endings do NOT remain faithful to the series, and they don't make sense. Several points in the ending logically contradict what occurred previously. THAT is the problem.

A better analogy would've just been "Mass Effect, Half LIfe 2, etc is art. Peggle and Angry Birds are not.

[Rafe34]

The Razman wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...
Either all games are art or none are.

Bull****.

Let me explain why with another example. "Either all paintings are art, or none are."

A child's stick figure drawing is not art. A masterpiece by Da Vinci is art.

The Witcher games are based on the novels of Andrej (Last name that I'm not even going to attempt to spell) from Poland. In his novels, there is a lot of sexuality regarding Witchers, mostly because Witchers cannot carry disease and they cannot get a woman pregnant. In his universe then, it makes sense that Witchers can pretty much get whoever they want.

The game may have been overboard trying to get the point across, but it makes sense and stays faithful to the novels, in most parts. (Keep in mind I've only read the first two, since I don't read Polish and the others have not been translated into English yet.)

ME3's endings do NOT remain faithful to the series, and they don't make sense. Several points in the ending logically contradict what occurred previously. THAT is the problem.

A better analogy would've just been "Mass Effect, Half LIfe 2, etc is art. Peggle and Angry Birds are not.

That is a better analogy. Thank you.

I was also replying to his bringing the Witcher into it, because TW is also art.

[Ice Cold J]

I get what he's saying, but when the product is touted as the first of it's kind immersion product, you expect something you like and I think we're allowed to complain if we don't like it.

Not necessarily get a brand new ending... just give us an epilogue.

[Rafe34]

The Razman wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

The disparity is worse on PC.

That's sort of a lie, considering there aren't any sales figures for the PC version. There's only retail sales (which on the PC these days amount to a small percentage of total sales, most of its being done digitally now where we don't have access to sales figures).

Good catch, I wasn't thinking about that.

I'd still say it's worse, but it's IMO, just based on pretty much every PC gaming site/forum on the entire internet.

Modifié par Rafe34, 30 mars 2012 - 02:53 .

[Rafe34]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

No spoilers

Mass Effect stuff happens about half way through though the whole thing is reflecting on the fans as a mass.


I haven't played to the ending yet, but I can't help feel that there is somewhat of an overreation to this whole thing.

Then your opinion is invalid.

Play to the ending, then come on and talk about how good/bad it is.

I'm not trying to be mean, I am dead serious. Most people think the same thing until they actually play the ending.

You do realize there are like 4 pages on this topic, right?  If you read some of them you'd know my actual "beef" is not with the ending being good or not.

Edit: same goes for translationninja

It doesn't matter. Your beef is with people's reactions to something you haven't experienced yet.

If a new Burger King store opened up, and you heard that people were boycotting it just because one of the meals that they offer is crap, you might think that's a little extreme of a reaction.

But if you then go and order that meal and find out that the burger is *actually made out of crap*, you might not think it is such an extreme reaction.

Modifié par Rafe34, 30 mars 2012 - 02:55 .

[Dude_in_the_Room]

Rafe34 wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...
Either all games are art or none are.

Bull****.

Let me explain why with another example. "Either all paintings are art, or none are."

A child's stick figure drawing is not art. A masterpiece by Da Vinci is art.

The Witcher games are based on the novels of Andrej (Last name that I'm not even going to attempt to spell) from Poland. In his novels, there is a lot of sexuality regarding Witchers, mostly because Witchers cannot carry disease and they cannot get a woman pregnant. In his universe then, it makes sense that Witchers can pretty much get whoever they want.

The game may have been overboard trying to get the point across, but it makes sense and stays faithful to the novels, in most parts. (Keep in mind I've only read the first two, since I don't read Polish and the others have not been translated into English yet.)

ME3's endings do NOT remain faithful to the series, and they don't make sense. Several points in the ending logically contradict what occurred previously. THAT is the problem.

I'm not getting into what is art and what is not....I took a art class in college and I think it's all bull****.

The things that are considerred art now a days is stupid so I think it's crap in any case. 

But I will say this.....art is like beauty.....it's in the eye of the beholder.   One can be crap but who are you to say that it's not art.

Modifié par Dude_in_the_Room, 30 mars 2012 - 02:56 .

[Rafe34]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...
Either all games are art or none are.

Bull****.

Let me explain why with another example. "Either all paintings are art, or none are."

A child's stick figure drawing is not art. A masterpiece by Da Vinci is art.

The Witcher games are based on the novels of Andrej (Last name that I'm not even going to attempt to spell) from Poland. In his novels, there is a lot of sexuality regarding Witchers, mostly because Witchers cannot carry disease and they cannot get a woman pregnant. In his universe then, it makes sense that Witchers can pretty much get whoever they want.

The game may have been overboard trying to get the point across, but it makes sense and stays faithful to the novels, in most parts. (Keep in mind I've only read the first two, since I don't read Polish and the others have not been translated into English yet.)

ME3's endings do NOT remain faithful to the series, and they don't make sense. Several points in the ending logically contradict what occurred previously. THAT is the problem.

I'm not getting into what is art and what is not....I took a art class in college and I think it's all bull****.

The things that are considerred art now a days is stupid so I think it's crap in any case. 

But I will say this.....art is like beauty.....it's in the eye of the beholder.  I don't see how you can say one thing that is the same in category is not like the other in reference to art.  One can be crap but who are you to say that it's not art.

Your definition is stupid. First you say the things that are considered art now a days is stupid, and then you give a definition that would make everything be art.

Just because I can make a ball bounce from one side of the screen to the other, and you try to keep it from going past your side of the screen, doesn't mean I made "art."

Angry Birds is not art.

[Dude_in_the_Room]

Rafe34 wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

No spoilers

Mass Effect stuff happens about half way through though the whole thing is reflecting on the fans as a mass.


I haven't played to the ending yet, but I can't help feel that there is somewhat of an overreation to this whole thing.

Then your opinion is invalid.

Play to the ending, then come on and talk about how good/bad it is.

I'm not trying to be mean, I am dead serious. Most people think the same thing until they actually play the ending.

You do realize there are like 4 pages on this topic, right?  If you read some of them you'd know my actual "beef" is not with the ending being good or not.

Edit: same goes for translationninja

It doesn't matter. Your beef is with people's reactions to something you haven't experienced yet.

If a new Burger King store opened up, and you heard that people were boycotting it just because one of the meals that they offer is crap, you might think that's a little extreme of a reaction.

But if you then go and order that meal and find out that the burger is *actually made out of crap*, you might not think it is such an extreme reaction.

Heres where I'm coming from:

This game was under the magnifying glass since day 1.  Before that you had DA2.  Ok, what a foul up, right?  Then you had ME2.  Well, they screwed that up too.  (or whichever came first you get the idea...I bought them after intial release)  THEN comes the Ashes DLC.....well now they're screwing us.

Then.....lots and lots of ppl bought ME3....ppl from these forums complaining.

What I am thinking is a lot of the ppl complaining are ppl who bought it day 1 just to complain.  If it wasn't the ending it was going to be something else.

I don't need to have played to the ending.  I'm talking about the basics.  You don't get a company to acknowledge you by continuously buying their product after you complain and complain anc complain.  It looks like you just want to complain. 

Think about this:  The majority of the talk on these forums is complaining.  What if it all didn't happen.  Bioware/EA would think nothing of it.  Then when they bring out their next game all anyone said was "Well, good luck but I'm not buying it".  And then once that game came out they barely reached enough profit to cover the cost.  I would LOVE for that to happen. 

Instead, we have what we have.