172 réponses à ce sujet

[wac2791]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

No spoilers

Mass Effect stuff happens about half way through though the whole thing is reflecting on the fans as a mass.


I haven't played to the ending yet, but I can't help feel that there is somewhat of an overreation to this whole thing.

Hmmm... Seems to me like "Bob" has been simply looking at the wrong "big picture." 

Which means: DUH there have been outlandish and inappropriate gestures made in this controversy. The FTC complaint, and the people who tend to just post nonsense and "rage" posts all over the internet hating on BioWare is not the right way to go about it, but taking that 1 person's actions and spreading it over an entire group of people who DIDN'T respond to endings that way is just a really horrible example of logical fallacy. You simply can't take the (obviously) minuscule amount you know about something, expand it to the whole movement, and post a smart-ass lecture video about it--oh wait, of course you can. However that doesn't mean you SHOULD. 

There are so many people out there simply stating their dissatisfaction with a product because of a very important aspect of that product, and they're doing it in a positive, creative way (from raising 80,000 dollars for charity, to sending cleverly-decorated cupcakes to BioWare)... What do you have to say to that, Bob? There's always going to be the people that do stuff like going to the FTC, blowing up IGN with trolling posts or profanity, etc. but if this situation has shown us one thing, it's that overall, these people have been mostly civil in their efforts, even if they tend to get a bit heated in discussion.

There you go: You "taught" us a lesson about being "entitled" and I taught you a lesson on credibility and getting facts straight/forming a logical or at least valid argument. 

(So, yeah I totally just told off someone who is probably NEVER going to read this... Yay "internet battles") [/venting]

Modifié par wac2791, 30 mars 2012 - 05:00 .

[Quietness]

aberdash wrote...

So basically the fact that people complain about bad things is why we cant have nice things? Even reaper logic makes more sense than that.

[Dude_in_the_Room]

Quietness wrote...

aberdash wrote...

So basically the fact that people complain about bad things is why we cant have nice things? Even reaper logic makes more sense than that.

Not going to let this be the last post b/c it is completely missing the point and exaggerating.

Modifié par Dude_in_the_Room, 30 mars 2012 - 06:37 .

[JeosDinas]

Louis deGuerre wrote...
When Leonardo Da Vinci painted something that was not what the client was promised they told him to come back and paint what they ordered.
It didn't matter that the first painting was a masterpiece that he worked on for years.
It wasn't what the client ordered.
You wanna get artistic, do it with someone else's money and on your own time.

You. Didn't. Commission. This. Game. Specifically. For. You.

[Tirigon]

Rafe34 wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...
Either all games are art or none are.

Bull****.

Let me explain why with another example. "Either all paintings are art, or none are."

A child's stick figure drawing is not art. A masterpiece by Da Vinci is art.

That is highly debatable. Admittedly, in Da Vinci's case I can agree with your view but if you had chosen Picasso or any other cubist, or impressionist, artist I would disagree. That sh!t sucks.

[abaris]

Tirigon wrote...

That is highly debatable. Admittedly, in Da Vinci's case I can agree with your view but if you had chosen Picasso or any other cubist, or impressionist, artist I would disagree. That sh!t sucks.

In your opinion - which I don't share.

In my opinion which nobody has to agree with of course, art ends where mass production starts.

Modifié par abaris, 30 mars 2012 - 10:49 .

[Tirigon]

abaris wrote...

In your opinion - which I don't share.

In my opinion which nobody has to agree with of course, art ends where mass production starts.

Which is a valid PoV, but not one others need to care for.

With regards to video games, mentioning "art" in one's post is just a way to show that one shouldnt be taken seriously.

[LOLandStuff]

As an artist, what I make I consider it art. My work from start to end.
Someone asks me for something, then I consider it a product.
I want to try and please people into buying my things, then that's a product.
That "art" excuse is a lousy excuse. As long as you give people what they want, then it's not that kind of art where you just pick the "It's art, you don't understand it so don't comment on it." card.
This is my point of view anyway.

[abaris]

LOLandStuff wrote...

As long as you give people what they want, then it's not that kind of art where you just pick the "It's art, you don't understand it so don't comment on it." card.
This is my point of view anyway.

Even more so, since they're treading very trecherous ground there. If it's about the endings we're talking about storytelling and that follows certain rules that cannot be broken since the times of the ancient greeks. One of the main reasons why gaping plotholes are frowned upon under any circumstances.

[Tirigon]

abaris wrote...

Even more so, since they're treading very trecherous ground there. If it's about the endings we're talking about storytelling and that follows certain rules that cannot be broken since the times of the ancient greeks. One of the main reasons why gaping plotholes are frowned upon under any circumstances.

Breaking rules is not a bad thing though, and in fact it is a characteristic of art.
The problem is doing it wrong.

If you believe the criticism of ME3s ending comes from people who fear for literature and want to fight breaking literary rules, you are wrong. NOONE would mind breaking of such rules if the ending was fine.

The problem is, it is not. It is so f*cking bad I could outline a better one in 5 minutes max.

[abaris]

Tirigon wrote...

If you believe the criticism of ME3s ending comes from people who fear for literature and want to fight breaking literary rules, you are wrong. NOONE would mind breaking of such rules if the ending was fine.

The problem is, it is not. It is so f*cking bad I could outline a better one in 5 minutes max.

Yeah, but that's the point. It's so bad because it breaks about a dozen rules of literature. The deus ex, rewriting the plot of the whole series in thevery last moment and thereby leaving holes all over the ground.

So, if nothing else, that's literature of the kind that any publisher would throw back in the authors face. If nothing else, this alone speak very loudly against artistic integrity.

[The Razman]

abaris wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

As long as you give people what they want, then it's not that kind of art where you just pick the "It's art, you don't understand it so don't comment on it." card.
This is my point of view anyway.

Even more so, since they're treading very trecherous ground there. If it's about the endings we're talking about storytelling and that follows certain rules that cannot be broken since the times of the ancient greeks. One of the main reasons why gaping plotholes are frowned upon under any circumstances.

On the contrary, narrative rules are there to be broken. Some of the best works come from breaking those rules.

Especially when it comes to narrative theory circa Aristotle and the like, applying it to non-linear forms of narrative like video-games causes problems. You have to adapt.

[JenMaxon]

Alternative POV:
http://www.guardian....errible-endings
Doesn't even mention ME but makes a good counterpoint to that garbage up top.

Modifié par JenMaxon, 30 mars 2012 - 12:05 .

[jerrinehart]

Both of you haven't seen the ending, next.

[InvincibleHero]

jerrinehart wrote...

Both of you haven't seen the ending, next.

People need to stop this line because it makes no sense.

People can make a moral stand against something they believe is wrong.

EX I am against slavery in no way shape or form yet I have never experienced nor been a slaver. I guess I can never have my stance based on your (mistaken) logic and that of others. People can stand up for artistic integrity without playing the endings.

Your argument is incorrect and conveys no fact or rebuttal to anything. Frankly, I don't know why people want to make themselves look bad.

[SalsaDMA]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

People making the 'artistic integrity' argument are defending incompetence or indifference in the name of art.

The audience does not owe the artist something. It's the other way around. This isn't to say you can't subvert the audience's expectations -- but subverting is not the same as ignoring or failing to understand. The artist owes the audience something for their time, and there are tried-and-true ways of achieving this.

If something doesn't work without the audience having to appeal to Art Itself as some kind of ineffable, infallible authority, then it's failed as art.

They lost the "artistic integrity" argument when you have a IGN correspondent in your game and put breasts on EDI.

Oh wait, I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm not getting their "vision".

I don't know what you're getting at really, but:

Is this coming from the same ppl that "like" the "artistic value" of The Witcher games with idiotic and uneccesary nudity?

That you have that idea of the nudity in the withcer tells me you have no clue about the atmosphere of the setting or characters in that game. If anything, it was entirely appropriate in that game.

and seriously... idiotic? Geez, is this suddenly the victorian age again or something?

[SalsaDMA]

FJVP wrote...

Who is this Bob and why should I care about what he says?

He's an "entitled fan" that wants everyone to feel like he does, even though his experience or integrity on what he discusses isn't on par with those he disagrees with.



Sorry. It was just begging to be said...

[The Anti-Saint]

Oh wow, another nice one.

/grabs popcorn again.

[Dude_in_the_Room]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

People making the 'artistic integrity' argument are defending incompetence or indifference in the name of art.

The audience does not owe the artist something. It's the other way around. This isn't to say you can't subvert the audience's expectations -- but subverting is not the same as ignoring or failing to understand. The artist owes the audience something for their time, and there are tried-and-true ways of achieving this.

If something doesn't work without the audience having to appeal to Art Itself as some kind of ineffable, infallible authority, then it's failed as art.

They lost the "artistic integrity" argument when you have a IGN correspondent in your game and put breasts on EDI.

Oh wait, I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm not getting their "vision".

I don't know what you're getting at really, but:

Is this coming from the same ppl that "like" the "artistic value" of The Witcher games with idiotic and uneccesary nudity?

That you have that idea of the nudity in the withcer tells me you have no clue about the atmosphere of the setting or characters in that game. If anything, it was entirely appropriate in that game.

and seriously... idiotic? Geez, is this suddenly the victorian age again or something?

I'm sorry if I find animated digital boobs to be useless.  There are millions of ways to convey sexual situations without having to see that crap. 

Geez, is this suddently Japan anime porn or something?

[Esquin]

This guy can go to hell.

Sorry but I have not seen anyone who supports the endings, or opposes the retake movement who genuinely understands what the movement is about. No one has presented any kind of logical argument in favour of the ending that are strong enough to counter retake, and no one has presented any discussion about why retake is wrong that actually addresses retakes motivations and wishes.

So maybe all you against us should just get lost until one of you can do that.

[Dude_in_the_Room]

Esquin wrote...

This guy can go to hell.

Sorry but I have not seen anyone who supports the endings, or opposes the retake movement who genuinely understands what the movement is about. No one has presented any kind of logical argument in favour of the ending that are strong enough to counter retake, and no one has presented any discussion about why retake is wrong that actually addresses retakes motivations and wishes.

So maybe all you against us should just get lost until one of you can do that.

Swing and a miss.

[AlexMBrennan]

Well, with respect, he's a a movie review person and I'll charitably assume that he saw the headlines and made the video without doing any kind of research whatsoever to get a bit of traffic for his thingy. 

The issue remains Bioware's deceptive advertisement. If you want to make completely linear games with depressing endings that's completely fine. You cannot, however, then advertise this game as being driven by player choice and featuring a ending where Shepard rides off into the sunset with their love interest on a flying Legion unicorn.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 30 mars 2012 - 11:09 .

[SalsaDMA]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

People making the 'artistic integrity' argument are defending incompetence or indifference in the name of art.

The audience does not owe the artist something. It's the other way around. This isn't to say you can't subvert the audience's expectations -- but subverting is not the same as ignoring or failing to understand. The artist owes the audience something for their time, and there are tried-and-true ways of achieving this.

If something doesn't work without the audience having to appeal to Art Itself as some kind of ineffable, infallible authority, then it's failed as art.

They lost the "artistic integrity" argument when you have a IGN correspondent in your game and put breasts on EDI.

Oh wait, I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm not getting their "vision".

I don't know what you're getting at really, but:

Is this coming from the same ppl that "like" the "artistic value" of The Witcher games with idiotic and uneccesary nudity?

That you have that idea of the nudity in the withcer tells me you have no clue about the atmosphere of the setting or characters in that game. If anything, it was entirely appropriate in that game.

and seriously... idiotic? Geez, is this suddenly the victorian age again or something?

I'm sorry if I find animated digital boobs to be useless.  There are millions of ways to convey sexual situations without having to see that crap. 

Geez, is this suddently Japan anime porn or something?

I find it odd that you are seemingly so horrified at the natural shapes of the human body.

Tell me something, when you see programs about tribal civilazations where people run around in loinclothes or less, is the first thing that comes to your mind "porn"? From your stance on visual representation of the natural human body in games as automatically being porn, it would seem naturaly to make such a comparison.

And seriously, if you call the Witcher for porn, you have a seriously alienated relationship to portayles of the human body. I thought the witcher was pretty decent in its portayl. No in your face things, just an artfull (omg! art can display human bodies? who would have thought) depictino without going overboard.