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As of the EC's release, there was no mention of the technological singularity, so this thread will no longer be updated, but the technological singularity is still a very interesting idea as applied to the Catalyst. Feel free to talk about it in here. I hope you, like me, enjoyed the EC and found it to be amazing. This thread has not yet been updated with EC stuff..
The post is no longer colored properly since I didn't update the colors and stuff because the thread is defunct. But feel free to read if you want to, of course
Unfortunately, due to the massive size of this thread, updates will be slow to come out simply because they take a lot of effort. Sorry, guys.
If you enjoyed, have something to add, or this just made you think, please comment or bump!
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I would've started this with a picture of the Catalyst, but I realized most BSN users would probably close the page on first sight if they saw that.
Welcome, BSN reader, to a long post. This isn't about the ending being good/bad; it's about trying to make sense with what we got. Nothing in here is official. Everything here is either my opinion or came from posters in this therad.
I ask that you please not be turned off by the big reading, a lot of which is now pictures. For those who have decided the Catalyst is stupid and that nothing that can be said can change that, you probably won't enjoy this. For everyone else, I hope you'll enjoy this. For newcomers, just know that I update the OP periodically with input from the thread so that all the information will be in one place.
I. Catalyst's Assumptions
II. The Endings
III. Reaper Preservation
IV. Common Points Against the Catalyst
V. Points From This Thread
VI. Other Links
VII. Leaked Script
VIII. Cut Codex Entry from ME2
IX. The Paperclip Maximizer
X. Conclusion
For a preview of the Wall of Text, please read the TL;DR:
The above, given the mass wall of text below, is clearly oversimplified.TL;DR: The Catalyst is trying to stop the technological singularity, which is the emergence of a self-evolving AI that evolves faster than organics to the point where organics will foreverafter be inferior. The possibilities of what can happen can be difficult for organic minds to comprehend, but we know with certainty that, by definition, organics will always be at the mercy of the synthetics. The Catalyst views this shift in balance of power too dangerous and is unwilling to let this happen.
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I. The Catalyst's Assumptions[/color]
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The Catalyst believes that synthetics will wipe out all organics eventually. Here are its likely assumptions:
1. There will be a technological singularity at some point in the future; there will be a point when synthetic growth and evolution will surpass that of organics.
2. The nature of a technological singularity means that it will be impossible for organics to "catch up" in terms of evolution; synthetics will, from this point on, always be the dominant species.
3. War and peace are both possibilities.
4. Nonzero probabilities of war and peace mean that both will be realized given enough time.
5. If there is peace, organics will not be wiped out by synthetics.
(a) Organics may war amongst themselves, but survival of all organics is not an impossibility.
6. If there is war, organics will be wiped out.
(a) Peace (coexistence, subjugation, banishment) and eradication of organics are all options.
(
Due to the singularity, synthetics will always win and dictate the terms.© If there is peace, due to nonzero probabilities of both peace and war, war will eventually occur again after enough time.
(d) A cycle of peace and war will continue with synthetics always dictating the winning terms.
(e) At some point, synthetics will realize the cycle, realize peace is temporary, and so will simply eradicate organics during a period of war; also, it can be reasoned that eradication is a possibility and will eventually be realized.
(f) Therefore, regardless of the current state of affairs, synthetics will wipe out organics.
7. The question of how much time is irrelevant.
(a) By definition, any time after the singularity (even millions of years) will see organic wins to be an impossibility.
8. All organics will, unchecked, evolve to the point of the technological singularity.
The Catalyst clearly makes some leaps of logic in its assumptions, but that doesn't mean its reasoning is stupid. For a scifi universe, it is very valid. It may feel out of place in the ME universe and may feel very rushed altogether, but the idea itself, I feel, can be respected.
The nature of the singularity also means that we can't really comprehend what happens beyond the point. There is no reason to assume peace/friendliness, hostility, or indifference by the synthetics. The Catalyst seems to go around this.n The Catalyst seems to go around this difficulty by using probabilities and deciding that they will be realized given enough time, focusing on the bad outcome versus the good outcome.
Respecting the Catalyst's logic does not mean one has to agree with its conclusion, its solution, or methods.
THE CATALYST'S CONCLUSION: Synthetics will wipe out all organics after the naturally-occurring technological singularity.
THE CATALYST'S SOLUTION: The technological singularity is the problem. Stopping the singularity from occurring is the solution.
THE CATALYST'S METHODS: Preserve each race at the "apex of its glory" before it becomes overtaken by synthetics via the technological singularity.
Again, I'm not saying that the Catalyst's conclusion, solution, and methods are morally right or that I agree with them. I am trying to present its logic. Obviously, nobody agrees with its solution/methods. It is not merely "using synthetics to kill organics so they don't get wiped out by synthetics". There is a philosophical kind of science fiction theme here.
Credit goes to CaptainZaysh for helping clear this up. The Catalyst makes the "practical" choice to achieve its goal.
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II. The Endings
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Interpreting the ending via the technological singularity as the Catalyst's main problem means that we have to take it at face value; that is, physically, what appears to be happening is happening. This doesn't mean Shepard isn't or is warding off Reaper indoctrination (that's a different discussion); it just means that things play out as they play out on the screen.
Remember, according to the story, the Crucible's choices are what the endings reflect, not the Catalyst's. The leaked script also showed that the Catalyst lost control of the Reapers when the Crucible docked, which is why it allowed you to destroy them (better than having them go rampant; remember, the Catalyst at least thinks it's trying to save all organics).
Your ending choice speaks to how you feel about the Catalyst's reasoning.
Destroy: This is the manifestation of disagreement with the singularity. Both other endings offer better choices of combating the technological singularity. If the singularity is truly inevitable, this ending will set the clock back to zero by destroying all synthetics. Since there is no one to "watch over" you or "stop" you, your "children" will eventually continue down the inevitable path of advancing towards the singularity. You could also put faith in the future that perhaps another solution will be found.
Control: This is essentially being undecided about the singularity. Current organics are clearly not at the singularity yet, so Shepard can keep the Reapers in reserve in case, as time advances, such a thing appears truly to be inevitable. Or if enough time passes and it doesn't seem like the singularity's going to happen, Shepard can just destroy the Reapers by making them fly into suns. Relative to the singularity, Control can go both ways.
Synthesis: This is the best choice if one is in agreement with the singularity. Rather than "solving" the singularity, it's "sidestepped" - organics and synthetics merge, eliminating their differences, and therefore eliminating the possibility of a singularity. Even if future synthetics are created, they cannot advance faster than organics because of organics' synthetic parts. (For those interested, I recommend checking out Ieldra2's Synthesis Compendium, which delves much further into the topic of synthesis, building off the singularity and other stuff.
I'd like to say that it's important to disassociate the Catalyst from the problem because the problem is potentially one that's a mutual problem (i.e. it can be a problem for organics too).
From the point of view of the technological singularity, this is why the endings are "ranked" by their "EMS" needed. A higher EMS will allow you to "better" combat the technological singularity.
I'm not even going to try to look at the epilogue scene; that was far too ambiguous for me and felt too generic.
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III. Reaper Preservation
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Before I delve into this, I'd like to state the following: Stopping the singularity (and all future organic life) is the primary objective; saving current organics is secondary. Everything below should be read with that in mind.
The Catalyst believes it "preserves" species. Legion and EDI say that a Reaper consists of several (billions?) organic minds uploaded. We see in the Collector Base that the Reapers use some form of genetic mush as the basis supposedly for storing/preserving organics.
This all is possible within the Mass Effect universe. First, we know that organic minds can be uploaded to a synthetic level because of three instances: (1) the race that uploaded themselves to a ship to save themselves, (2) Project Overlord, and (3) the N7 mission in ME3 where Shepard gets uploaded to a Geth consensus.
As for the genetic mush, real life experience tells us that this preserves nothing, but Javik tells us otherwise. Javik was able to touch Shepard and, within a super short span of time (seconds), learn enough to be able to speak English (representative of Shep's culture); Javik later tells us that DNA serves as a kind of biological memory of sorts. Rather than just store code, in ME, DNA can actually give us entire stories of someone's life.
Combining all of this may be able to truly preserve the "essence" of species, both as individuals and collectives, via organic mind uploads and DNA memories. The Reapers' superior technology indicates they must have better means of doing the above.
But being probable is different from possible. Based on what we saw and what the Catalyst says, though, I would venture that it's entirely probable that the Reaper "preservation" process does preserve people somewhat.
The issue, however, boils down really to two points:
(1) The Catalyst believes becoming a Reaper is an adequate form of preservation, even if secondary.
(2) Current organics, no matter what, do not want to become Reapers.
While the Catalyst's logic believes it is preserving organics, ultimately, even if it doesn't, all that does is make Reaping unnecessary save for creating more Reapers. Its goal of stopping the singularity is still separate from its Reaper Preservation.
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IV. Common Points Against the Catalyst
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These were initial points I made about common objections to the Catalyst's logic. I know everyone won't agree. I'm not making any moral-based statements. I am, however, relying on the leaked script heavily. Many people use this as what I (and some others) believe to a misinterpretation of the Catalyst.
1. The Catalyst is using synthetics to kill organics...but this is the problem it's trying to solve!
EDI says during the Suicide Mission in ME2 that Reapers are synthetic/organic hybrids - Legion later confirms this. Reapers don't believe they're killing organics; they believe they're ascending them and making way for new life. We are given indications that Reapers somehow do preserve their species' essence at horrific costs. Also, the Catalyst talks about organic life in general and apparently views species as drops in the bucket in the overall picture (20,000+ cycles over 1 billion years).
2. In my playthrough, Joker/EDI hooked up and the Geth/Quarians found peace, therefore conflict isn't always the result!
We haven't reached the technological singularity point yet. While war isn't always the result, neither is peace. Winning a battle doesn't mean the war is won, so to speak. The Catalyst thinks that cycles of war and peace beyond the singularity will result in repeated synthetic wins that will ultimately lead to the eradication of organics. The Thessia VI says the "same conflicts" always happen in each cycle, indicating that these issues are not pertinent to only the Prothean/current cycles.
3. If synthetics are the problem and the Catalyst is trying to protect organics, it should just kill Synthetics instead!
Repeatedly killing synthetics can be probelmatic because (a) organics, unimpeded, may eventually create synthetics or AIs that are more powerful than the Reapers; and (
because it does not stop organics from reaching the technological singularity, which the Catalyst views to be the problem. Once the singularity is reached, there is no point going back for organics. Also, this would not be as "helpful" to new organic life as "cleaning the slate" would be.4. The Catalyst should've done Synthesis instead of Reaping in the first place!
Synthesis may stop new life from flourishing because there is nothing to say that younger races wouldn't be subjugated by older ones ("harvesting" older races does). The Catalyst also mentions that it is the Crucible that creates the possibility of Synthesis. Also, it will be an end to the problem the Catalyst sees, but it will fundamentally change the nature of organic life, which ironically is something the Catalyst is trying to save.
5. But...the Catalyst is justifying genocide!
It doesn't view it as genocide. It believes it's preserving them before they reach inevitable destruction and it also believes it's making way for new life. Of course, it is genocide to us. A side note: Javik reveals the Prothean empire would have either enslaved or eradicated humanity, indicating that it was, ironically and cruelly, the Reapers that saved us from being subjugated to their empire.
6. Wait, Sovereign/RannochReaper told us we couldn't comprehend them, but I understand this!
Either it was bad/impossible writing, or they meant that we could not comprehend the magnitude and scope of it, the latter of which can be true. Reapers have a view of time that spans hundreds of millions of years, dwarfing evolutionary timeframes and even some geological levels of time, perhaps giving them a perspective that we "cannot comprehend".
7. Even if the Catalyst's logic is right, it was poorly introduced and executed. I agree with you here. For my sarcastic take on ME3's plot holes, see this. Poor writing or rushed delivery, though, does not necessarily mean it's stupid or that the writers had no artistic vision. It was completely unexpected and out of line with "big" ME themes so far, though - that seems to be true.
Again, I am not making normative statements (not saying what the Catalyst is doing is "right"). I am trying to show a side of its reasoning that I haven't seen a lot on the forums and wanted to share.
That's all I have to say. I'm sure I have a few flaws in my reasoning here or there, and I don't think I'm completely right. I'm interested to hear others' thoughts though on these issues. It'd help if you could indicate the number of the argument when you address it so this may be able to flow smoothly.
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V. Points From This Thread
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I tried my best to scan through the replies and summarize some points that people are making, whether against/for the Catallyst or just interesting points in general. I think civil discussion and friendly disagreement are healthy. I'm posting everything, even if I have no "rebuttal", simply because this is a discussion and ignoring one side is just bad academicsand speaks to poor integrity. I am humbled by the thread's responses. I won't be singling people out here because I don't want to be seen as attacking them; also, many points were made by more than one person.
1. You're using a leaked script to support some of your argument, not what we see in the game.
This is a valid point. While similar, the leaked script is not part of the game. Losing the leaked script would lose 3 main admissions by the Catalyst: (1) that it was actually created at one point in time, (2) the mention and definition of the technological singularity, and (3) that it tries to allow for lesser/newer organic life to develop. It's up to the reader to decide this. If you decide the leaked script is too different, then much of the Catalyst's logic does actually disappear.
2. Stop supporting genocide and saying that they're harvesting organics when they're really committing mass murder; even if their logic is good, their methods aren't.
As I said, I'm not making normative statements. Of course I agree genocide and mass murder are bad. The Repaers don't view it that way, and we are given brief snippets of evidence (EDI's comment about synthetic/organic hybrids, organic minds being combined into one Reaper identity) to support their view. Respecting someone's opinion does not mean you have to agree with it.
3. Joker/EDI and Quarian/Geth peace were huge plot points; the writers focused on these for a reason - to show that war is not always the option.
This is also a very valid point that I can understand and support - accepting the Catalyst's premise takes away these characters/issues' significance and even plot dignity. However, the Catalyst thinks one side may want to end the cycle of war/peace, and if it's after the singularity, synthetics might not be nice about it. Perhaps EDI/Geth were meant to showcase the existence of both war and peace, thereby supporting the Catalyst's argument, giving their characters some significance, and providing fuel to argue agains the Catalyst, all in one go.
4. They should Reap civilizations pre-spaceflight to avoid taking heavy losses.
This is a good point. I don't have a full answer to this so what follows may not address it completely but hopefully will be food for thought. I think "fully developed" civilizations requires spaceflight. Also, it may be because their goal is to preserve organics at the "apex of their glory" as opposed to simple bacteria because then they are worth saving. For those that aren't, the Reapers probably assume they're doing what will eventually be done in the future anyways. For those that are not as advanced yet, they may be waiting for spaceflight as the era for races to "prove themselves".
The point has also come up that they wait until organics are close enough to creating synthetics that would overtake them before they swoop in (e.g. once the technological singularity is within the next millenium or so; the Geth are kind of close with their Dyson sphere, after all). Basically, they push off Reaping for as long as they feel they can to "allow" organics to develop.
5. The Catalyst uses circular reasoning. This is true - the Catalyst is basing assumptions almost entirely on the assumptions it ends up making. Basically, circular reasoning is an argument that relies on itself to exist. ". A very valid point that seems to be the core of those who disagree with the Catalyst.
6. Your Point 4 is based entirely on speculation.
Part of it based on what the Catalyst says, but a lot of it is based on the leaked script. So this is a very valid point that, without the leaked script (or even perhaps with it), this is a huge plot hole other than the fact that the Crucible created that function, not the Catalyst. Then, of course, comes the question as to why the Catalyst's creators didn't use that option in the first place.
7. The worry is not really that synthetics will rebel but that they will advance so quickly (culturally/economically/scientifically) that they will overtake organics in terms of evolution and take the dominant spot in the galaxy.
True. The singularity is the problem it is specifically trying to prevent. It sees it as the root cause of inevitable extinction.
8. The idea that there is a technological singularity is ludicrious - for the ME series.
True. It was rushed, poorly hinted an, and out of place overall. Other series can do this well, but it did feel out of place for ME. While this is of course scifi, the problem with a technological singularity is that it is ultimately a thought exercise that cannot be disproven by its very nature ("you haven't reached it yet"). This is a logical fallacy that is indeed a possible hole in the Catalyst's logic.
The existence of a technological singularity, by itself, is a valid point of debate and a devastating critique to the Catalyst's logic.
9. Seeing as there are a finite number of life-supporting planets, but time is for all purposes infinite, there may come a point where the Reapers extinguish all organic life simply because there are no worlds left to support it; this will thereby render their objective failed.
An awesome point I never considered. One could argue that new life could develop on old worlds, but we see that worlds killed by the Reapers are usually scarred by war, maybe to the point of being unlivable. Time could heal all wounds, sure, but this is a very interesting contradiction.
10. Relying heavily on hypotheticals, random one-time mentions or dialogue, and so forth just reveals that it was not well written.
I agree; see my thread on bad/lazy writing and plot holes if you are more interested.
11. If the created always rebel against the creators, then the Reapers should rebel against the Catalyst.
I think the Catalyst here meant conflict with the creating organics, not with the Catalyst itself. The Catalyst itself notes that it was created. Sadly, we are not given enough information about its past to properly determine if the Reapers' subjugation to the Catalyst is a direct contradiction of its logic, or if the absence of the Catalyst's creators signifies a contradiction as well.
12. The "red" ending destroys "all synthetic life" killing the Reapers - thus the Reapers are completely synthetic.
Remember that Shepard is supposed to die too because he is "partly synthetic". This implies that all partly synthetic life forms will be killed - ironically the Quarians, people with biotic implants, and Shepard seem to be on the list as well, implicitly, according to the Catalyst's logic. Thus it really is killing anything that is at least partly synthetic, indicating the Reapers must be at least partly synthetic but not necessarily wholly synthetic. Legion states that Reapers consist of organic minds uploaded, indicating that they store the organic minds in a synthetic form.
Yet the N7 ending throws all of this into question, so I don't have an answer for this at all. But the point has arisen in the thread that the Crucible only targeted synthetic life of a certain advanced level, meaning synthetic implants (Shepard, biotics, etc.) wouldn't be destroyed but life on the level of the Geth, EDI, and the Reapers would.
It has also been pointed out that a Codex entry states that Shepard is NOT partly synthetic because in the ME universe, the word "synthetic" implies self-awareness; Shepard's synthetic parts don't change his/her own self-awareness, biotic implants and Quarians are therefore not synthetic, and VI's (operating systems, computers, "technology") are not synthetic either. Synthetic things have to be self-aware. In this case, the Catalyst lied when it called Shepard "partly synthetic" because Shepard actually isn't synthetic, and neither are anyone with implants.
Or it could be that the more "refined" the Crucible is (higher EMS), it basically targets people who are "more synthetic". Geth would always die, as would the Reapers, being synthetic enough. But Shepard at a high enough level wouldn't die because the Crucible is more refined.
Still, we are, of course, speculating. Shepard breathing after the Destroy ending is still a little baffling (after all of that, how did Shep survive the Citadel explosion? etc.).
13. Even accepting the Catalyst may view harvesting as a good thing even though organics (us) view it as horrific, still, the Catalyst isn't helping organics because some races aren't even harvested but are outright exterminated.
Just like Hacket sacrificed the Second Fleet to allow (I think) the 3rd and 5th to escape, the Catalyst may view the exterminated races in the same light, believing that it is still helping out organic life in general. The cruel, cold, calculus of the Catalyst is that it apparently is looking out for organic civilization as a whole and therefore deems that certain civilizations may be expendable in the long run. Remember, the Reapers/Catalyst believe in upholding The Cycle above all else and believe that sacrificing civilizations are okay for the cycle, just like the Protheans sacrificed entire worlds to try to get enough time to build a counterattack to the Reapers.
14. Logic is pointless to justify the Catalyst's motives/actions as we must do so by facts.
1 billion years (Leviathan of Dis) with approximately 50,000 years per cycle implies 20,000 cycles. We have information about two cycles for sure, maybe more from the Prothean VI. Statistically, we can't really extrapolate our sample data to the population because it's not very significant, I think. I would argue that the lack of facts' validity means that we can neither disprove/prove the Catalyst's assertions with them.
On a purely story-side grounds, some extrapolation can be made, of course, simply because it is infeasible to write up situations for thousands of cycles. But the available evidence may not directly disprove the Catalyst's logic (cycles of war/peace, tech singularity, etc.). No right answer here, of course. Completely up to readers/posters/responders.
15. If the Catalyst is all about protecting organic life, then this means that the Catalyst goes against this by offering Shepard two choices that go against what it wants (Control+Destroy vs Synthesis; Blue+Red vs Green).
Green does seem to be in line with the Catalyst's goals but less than the idea of harvesting; it seems to be a Plan B of sorts. Overall, the Catalyst allows Shepard these choices because its solution won't work anymore. Since we're not really given a reason why other than that Shep made it there (which is weird because it was only with the Catalyst's help, and it still by itself doesn't really mean Shep has "won"), I think that the Catalyst can't change its own directive, perhaps indicative of the kind of shackling AIs need as deemed by its creators. But I'm clearly guessing here. This is really a bit of a problem where the Catalyst's reason for contradicting itself is not fully explained.
As has come up in the forums, it could be that the realization of the completed Crucible by itself means that future cycles may also resist in equal ways, indicating the Catalyst's solution won't work.
16. The technological singularity doesn't mean organics will always be outpaced by synthetics because organics can update themselves with synthetic parts.
This is the Synthesis ending, which the Catalyst believes is the "best" ending because it ends the problem of the singularity. However, in Javik's cycle, we learn a race tried to do this but the synthetic parts decided to discard the organic parts because they were inefficient (or something like that).
17. If the singularity is true, then it may be reached in another galaxy. Given enough time, organics may be doomed anyways as synthetics may eventually travel here.
True. The Reapers' inability to evolve indicates they are not singularity-level in terms of advancement so they may not be able to hold off the said synthetics. Perhaps in the long run the Catalyst's solution is just prolonging the inevitable after all, in which case Synthesis really is the best ending.
18. If synthetics will be more advanced after the singularity, maybe it is inevitable and evolution's command that synthetics will naturally become the dominant race.
True. The Catalyst probably doesn't take this into account though because its mandate is to preserve organic life, otherwise the argument lends itself to the idea that synthetics may naturally be the superior ones and the ones more "deserving" to survive. Javik believes in the mandate of organic evolution, but maybe "evolution" as a whole does dictate synthetics are the ultimate winners. The Catalyst doesn't seem to care though.
19. The Reapers are post-singularity.
I'm not too sure about this. The Reapers, we see, have an inability to evolve. Harbinger looks the same technologically as other Reapers and the Human Reaper looked to be of the same technology, indicating they haven't evolved that much, if at all. The Catalyst has an inability to even change its own directive or do something different once the Crucible's docked (though we're not told if its because it inherently can't or because the Crucible is designed to subvert its control). Given the hundreds of millions of years that have passed with a stagnant evolution state, I would argue that the Reapers are actually pre-singularity because of their inability to self-evolve, which is the main thing that would happen after the singularity. We don't know how technological progress is directly related to the singularity. Their inability to self-evolve and the Catalyst's inability to change its directive indicates shackled AIs or VIs, and/or, at the very least, being by definition pre-singularity.
A couple of points have been made in the thread about Sovereign. Sovvy states that they are the "pinnacle of evolution and existence". This can be interpreted in a multitude of ways. Sovvy could be lying, Sovvy could believe it but it's still not the truth, it's the pinnacle of "safe" evolution, it's the maximum that Reapers can evolve but not the pinnacle for the rest of the galaxy, etc., but the most obvious route is to take what Sovvy says at face value and assume that the Reapers are post-singularity. Also, the stagnation of Reaper technology has been suggested as evidence of a "peak" after the singularity rather than evidence of an inability to self-evolve.
If there is such a "technological cap", so to speak, then that's an interesting point to make because (a) if the Reapers are post-singularity then the hypocrisy of the Catalyst does come into question and (
if there is a technological maximum cap then organics will eventually reach it too, eliminating the problem of the singularity. Both implications are, obviously, bad for the Catalyst's logic. 20. Maybe Shepard wasn't the first organic to make it this far.
Well the Catalyst said Shep was the "first organic ever", so I'd probably disagree with this. But there is a chance some other cycle made it this far and chose the "control" option and ended up continuing the cycle, indicating that Shep was the first organic to make it this far with the Catalyst 2.0 or something. We can't know if the latter was the case.
21. It seems weird that the Reapers haven't rebelled or that they're all in complete agreement - this seems to sacrifice their individuality of each being a "nation".
True. We don't know really to what degree each Reaper has free will, or each mind that makes up a Reaper identity has a say in things, or to what degree the Catalyst controls all of them. Sovvy/Harby's dialogue seem at odds with the Catalyst's claims of control, so maybe there is a middle ground in which the Catalyst gives directives but the Reapers have limited freedom in how to accomplish them. I don't know.
It could be that they're all indoctrinated. It could also be that their minds are completely free to think but only the actions of the entire Reaper ship are controlled by the Catalyst in order to stop the power of the Reapers running amok; the Catalyst has clear constraints in its programming that mean it can't wipe out ALL organic life.
22. In light of the singularity, it doesn't make sense for the Reapers to be coming in after organics create synthetics (Prothean/current cycle).
I don't think synthetics themselves are the problem. The singularity is; it seems like they don't give a crap if it's before for some reason. Maybe it's because before the singularity organics are the dominant species so they assume organic life will continue.
23. Sovereign's claim about controlling the evolution of organics makes it seem as if the Reapers create the problem or are helping civilizations advance faster towards the singularity.
I'm not too sure about this one either. I will try to explain my somewhat convoluted reasoning. All they're doing is making sure we evolve along the paths they desire. If the Catalyst's assumption about a singularity being inevitable holds true, then it wouldn't matter what organics' technology is based on - mass relays or otherwise - because they'll reach the singularity anyways. Furthermore, the Reapers clearly would have a better knowledge of when the singularity would occur if it was along a technological progress path they were familiar with. The mass relay technology path is what they're most familiar with since it's their path. Hence, I would suggest that they control galactic civilization's evolutionary path in order to better be able to measure how close to the singularity they are.
24. You're using a "wrong" definition of the singularity - it could be organics who reach it too and create organic/synthetic hybrid intelligences that are far greater in scope than organics alone; it doesn't have to be just synthetics.
True. But the Catalyst's leaked dialogue (which I used) defines the singularity as the kind where synthetics overtake organics. Maybe it's a specific kind of singularity that it's focused on, and, for the purpose of ME, only that kind of singularity "exists".
25. There's no evidence the Reapers truly "ascend" civilizations.
We are given some indications that they do somehow do this at horrific costs. EDI and Legion note that a ton of organic minds (I forgot - thousands or millions) are combined to form a Reaper identity. As per what a Reaper identity truly is, that's unknown. Section II of this post may have more info, but related information is scattered throughout.
26. It was stupid for the Catalyst to take the form of The Kid.
I kind of agree; I think the whole humanization of Shepard through the kid was a bit forced. If it was VS or even Anderson or a mix I think that'd be cool. Personally I don't want it to look like a Reaper because then it wouldn't feel like it was different from Sovvy or Harby. But this is just opinion. I was never one to believe the Catalyst's form influenced how I interpreted its ideas. In my opinion, this is a separate plot device/hole different from its logic.
27. There is no reason to assume the Catalyst is being truthful.
I doubt it would be put in the game otherwise, but if you believe this, that's totally fine of course. That obviously changes everything. If you can doubt one thing it says in terms of truthfulness/lying (meaning it doesn't believe what it's saying) then you have no reason to trust anything. None of the endings may work and Shepard may just get electrocuted (Blue/Green) or explode (Red) in all of them without the Crucible firing. It opens the door to literally an infinite amount of interpretations, I believe.
There is also the truth that the Reapers need organics to "reproduce", though we don't know how important "reproduction" is for them because they seem to at least lose more Reapers this cycle than gain. If reproduction is the most important thing, I wonder why they didn't just cut their losses and try to obliterate everyone instead of trying to harvest. But who knows. The Catalyst's lack of truthfulness would throw a lot of doubt and speculation into things.
28. The Catalyst may be able to go rogue and doesn't have to always protect organic life.
I think it's doing it because that's what it was programmed to do by its creators. I'm guessing its creators put horribly tight shackles on it because it can't even change its own function. So it can't self-evolve and stuff and probably can't go rogue, I think. Honestly, it frustrates me a bit that we aren't given information about its origins because that would clear up a lot of unresolved points.
29. It's pointless to store DNA - we are not given a reason why.
True. Other than the explanation that it is part of the ascendance process and part of the Catalyst's goal to "preserve organic life" (remember, it thinks Reaperfication is preservation), there is no real definite reason given why DNA is directly needed, especially if they can just absorb the minds directly separate from the genetic mush.
30. The Catalyst's view of probability is too simplistic.
This is the argument that experimental probability is different from theoretical probability and that the Catalyst is making a lot of assumptions (controlling for other factors, the probabilities all being constant, etc.). A good point brought up is that the probability of the singularity and/or extinction after could trend to zero as time goes to infinity. There are a lot of different factors that the Catalyst either assumes to be negligable, controlled, fails to take into account, or some combination of the three. This is true and can't be refuted this because it is a basic mathematical pitfall. We can assume it has evidence to make "smart" parameters but we are not given confirmation of this at all. But perhaps then this is the crux of how the player can disagree - if the Catalyst's reasoning was 100% infallible, then it wouldn't make sense from a storywise perspective at all.
31. With true sentience, synthetics can be just as "chaotic" as organics, so the Reapers just harvesting organics to bring order to the chaos is faulty.
True, though I wonder to what degree the synthetics can be "reprogrammed". This is something the Catalyst probably didn't take into account either because (a) it didn't expect it to happen (valid, seeing as only Reaper tech helped the Geth reach that level) or (
because its creators just talked about organic life and just didn't care about synthetics. Who knows. A good thing to point out though - leads to some hypocrisy perhaps on the part of the Reapers.32. After Synthesis, organic/synthetic hybrids may create synthetics that will still destroy them.
I think the difference is that the singularity becomes an impossibility because the hybrids will be able to evolve as fast as the synthetics because they will contain the "synthetic" parts for faster evolution (I honestly don't know the specifics and can only speculate). At least, I think that's the ideology behind it and why Synthesis was supposed to be an ideal ending. The problem, remember, is not so much synthetics killing organics (which is a consequence) but the technological singularity. So yes, this is a true point - created synthetics can still destroy organics - but the singularity problem is, theoretically, solved. I suppose we have to assume that Synthesis won't result in what happened in Javik's cycle, where a race tried to do it on their own and it failed horribly. Reaper tech is supposed to be better at doing this, I guess.
33. It is pointless to use probability - there are low chances of a lot of things happening and the amount of time needed for a realization of the probability/ies may be so long that it may be greater than the age of the universe itself.
True. The only way to go around these problems is to give another assumption, which is really more of a leap of faith. Basically, we have to assume that the Catalyst and/or its creators have had enough time/experience to come up with relevant numbers, and that these numbers are relevant enough that they will be realized within a relatively short (less than a billion years) timespan.
Basically, we have to have faith that the Catalyst isn't stupid and that it is using data (that is clearly available to it, seeing as it's in the Citadel and overseas the Reapers) to extrapolate its statements. Either that, or it's just blindly following a mandate set on it by its creators.
34. Civilizations will always shackle their AIs after they realize the danger that rampant AIs pose.
Yup, we'd expect that to happen. I'm not too sure but I think overall the purpose of unshackling an AI is to increase its capabilities, like with EDI. All it takes is one unshackled AI to self-evolve fast enough for the singularity to happen, though. Despite our cycle being averse to AIs, we still seem to have a few unshackled ones (EDI for one, maybe the Geth would count too?). So this by itself may not always hold; our cycle disproves it.
35. The Reapers continue the cycles for reproduction and/or continuation/preservation of their species.
I personally think the main difference between organics and Reapers are the "main purpose" so to speak, where organics try to ensure the survival of their species but the Reapers try to uphold the mantle of the cycle. While making new Reapers is certainly a plus, I think the way they're presented, especially by the Catalyst, is such that their numbers are a means to the end but are not the main goal in and of itself (whereas for organics, reproduction is the base purpose of biological life). But yes, the only way the Reapers can reproduce is by relying on organics. Again, they think they're preserving organics.
36. With the probabilities view, synthetics could wipe themselves out too (before/after they wipe out organics) and organic life could start anew. There may be cycles of synthetic/organic dominance and cycles of technological singularities.
True, but the Catalyst probably doesn't care unfortunately. It cannot let organics get wiped out once or that first time. That's what its main mandate is about. Or maybe its creators (cough or the writers) did not look that far beyond in terms of time.
37. Reapers help fuel the problem by leaving around the relays; if they didn't leave the relays, it would be near impossible for synthetics to actually wipe out organics even if they got that powerful.
Initially, perhaps. But given enough time, the synthetics could come up with more powerful FTL drives, build their own relays, etc. - they won't have the resource needs of organics (e.g. food) and so could probably have the complete advantage without the relays in the future. Expanding the view of time with a singularity means that synthetics can evolve much faster than organics and may reach that level of technology. Also, the relays serve another purpose - to "control" galactic evolution, perhaps to better judge the level of advancement that organics are at (see Point 23 above).
38. The Catalyst upgraded the Geth to fight the Quarians, showing it doesn't always care about organics.
First off, I'm not sure if they even thought the Quarians were worth harvesting (from Harbinger dialogue in ME2). But let's give the benefit of the doubt here. The thing is, we later see that upgraded Geth are immensely powerful. We also see they can be utterly controlled by the Reapers. I think the benefit of having the Geth as tools outweighed the cost of losing the Quarians to harvest. They could then use the Geth to help conquer the rest of the galaxy and then discard or turn them off when they were done.
39. The technological singularity cannot be proven.
I don't know if I stated this explicitly before, but I thought I should put this here. By its nature, the singularity can't be proven; it's an idea, not a fact. That doesn't mean it's stupid or isn't valid though.It can be strongly reasoned/guessed at based on what we see. Simulations can show possible effects. We see the Geth working towards it. We see the power the Reapers possess and can only imagine what it'd be like if they weren't technologically stagnant.
But the nature of the singularity is that it is impossible for 100% proof that it will happen because you can always make the argument that "we haven't reached that point yet". It's called the "singularity" because we don't know what will happen beyond it. A consequence of this kind of definition is that it can only be proved in retrospect, basically, once it's too late.
This is probably why the endings exist in a clear response to the question of the singularity (disagree, unsure, and agree - for destroy, control, and synthesis, respectively). As I stated in the beginning, it's not 100% right, but it's not 100% stupid. It would not make narrative sense for Mass Effect to confine the ending choices in such a way that any one is more "correct" than the others, I believe.
40. The Geth did not rebel; they fought for continued existence.
They stilled rebelled. In a nutshell, the Quarians basically asked the Geth to allow themselves to be deactivated, and the Geth refused. It's messed up perhaps, but the Geth did rebel. Remember, it doesn't matter who starts the conflict, nor does the conflict have to happen for an infinite duration. It just has to happen once for the synthetics to rebel. To a lesser but stil real extent, EDI as an AI rebelled against Cerberus when she/it refused to allow Cerberus to track the Normandy SR2 after the Alliance took it. In a peculiar way, rebelling is kind of the "coming of age" rite for synthetics to be taken seriously, it seems, as it also indicates a level of free will, something organics consider to be intrinsic. Note that while Geth can be hacked, so can organics to an extent via indoctrination.
41. The Catalyst is really carrying out the cycles to retain its dominance over organics.
This would be expected of a typical organic race, but the Catalyst explicitly tells us this is not the case. It's more like its technological dominance comes about as a byproduct of the cycles.
42. The Catalyst's solution is wrong because the Crucible's presence makes it concede to Shepard.
The Catalyst never said its solution worked forever. Also, we are lead to believe that the Crucible's newly introduced variables are what make it concede (the prior script said the Catalyst lost control of the Reapers, giving both a reason to trust it and a reason why it was helping Shepard). It willingly found a new solution when its own wouldn't work. With the Reapers out of its control, destroy becomes a viable option because it at least stops rampant Reapers.
Obviously its solution is imperfect. But that is separate from its logic and the singularity.
43. If the Catalyst is preserving organics, it doesn't make sense for it to use its previous "preserved" organics (Reapers) as frontline units and risk them.
We know this cycle was an anomaly in terms of Reaper losses; normally they don't take any at all. Also, the singularity is the main problem, so losing a Reaper or two won't hurt except if it keeps happening in the long run such that it weakens the overall Reaper fleet strength. All we can assume is that (a) Reaper creation outweighs Reaper losses (evidenced by the multitudes of them) and (
the Catalyst is confident enough in its technological superiority (again, evidenced by the multitudes of successful cycles).44. If the created always destroy the creators, husks will destroy Reapers, eggs may destroy chickens, and my sandwich will kill me.
This may be taking things too literally, though the hyperbole I'm guessing serves to show the absurdity of the created vs creator conflict. This was a problem with ambiguity in the version of the script we got. The leaked script narrows it down to the specific creator/created conflict of the technological singularity. Otherwise, I'm sure you could use common sense.
45. The Catalyst could just indoctrinate everyone and stop them from producing synthetics rather than harvest them.
I think indoctrination has negative long-term consequences, but otherwise the only reason I can think of is that having too many races would use up too many resources and would eventually overpopulate the galaxy versus keeping them as Reapers (who are self-sufficient).
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VI. Links
Some people have asked/suggested I link other threads here. They're not necessarily the people who created the threads. I'm happy to link things if you guys think they're relevant in some way.
1. Shepard may not have been the first to meet the Catalyst
2. The technological singularity
3. Galactic civilization isn't screwed without the relays
4. The destruction of the mass relays makes narrative sense
5. "Pro-ending" thread that has links to a bunch of other threads
6. Mass relay travel and discussion of post-relay instantaneous travel technology
7. Cut ME2 Codex entry on the technological singularity
8. Dealing with the Galactic Dark Age
9. Pro-Synthesis Compendium (builds further off the technological singularity idea)
10. The Catalyst is a Paperclip Maximizer
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VII. Leaked Script Dialogue
I use this dialogue to support my ideas about the Catalyst; of course, the validity of its use is open to debate (See the first point in Part III of this thread). I pushed the script to the end of the OP because it's long and I didn't want to turn people off with a lot of reading. This is from back in November 2011. Note that "dark energy" was not in this.
Ieldra2 kindly helped with this.
CATALYST: Take my hand.
SHEPARD: What...where is this?
CATALYST: This is the Citadel. Where I live.
SHEPARD: And who are you, exactly?
CATALYST: I am the Catalyst.
SHEPARD: I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst.
CATALYST: A simple mistake. The Citadel is part of me. I was created eons ago to solve a problem.
SHEPARD: What problem is that?
CATALYST: To prevent organics from creating an AI so powerful that it would overtake them and destroy them.
SHEPARD: But that's exactly what you're doing.
CATALYST: Not exactly. The Reapers harvest fully developed civilizations, leaving the less developed ones intact. Just as we left your species when we were here last.
SHEPARD: But you killed the rest...
CATALYST: We harvested them. We brought order to the chaos. We helped them ascend and become one of us, allowing new life to flourish, while preserving the old life forever in Reaper form.
SHEPARD: I think we'd rather keep our own form. - OR - You could never understand. We don't want to be preserved!
CATALYST: Impossible. Organics will always trend to a point of technological singularity. A moment im time where their creations outgrow them. Conflict is the only result, and extinction the consequence. My solution creates a cycle which never reaches that point. Organic life is preserved.
SHEPARD: But you're taking away our future. Without future, we have no hope. Without hope...we might as well be a machine...programmed to do what we're told. - OR - The defining characteristic of organic life is that we think for ourselves. Make our own choices. You take that away and we might as well be machines just like you.
CATALYST: There is hope. Maybe more than you know. - OR - You have choice. More than you know.
CATALYST (Continued): The fact that you are standing here, the first organic to do so in countless cycles, proves this. Just as it proves my solution is no longer valid.
SHEPARD: So now what?
CATALYST: A new solution must be found. The Crucible has altered my function. I can't proceed. I can only guide you in its use.
SHEPARD: I don't understand.
CATALYST: Its energy can be released as a destructive force. Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will succumb, as will much of the technology your kind rely on, including the relays you depend on.
SHEPARD; But the Reapers will be dead?
CATALYST: Correct. But the probability of singularity occurring again in the future is certain.
SHEPARD: And the other choice?
CATALYST: Harness the Crucible's energy. Use it to take control of the ones you call the Reapers.
SHEPARD: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.
CATALYST: Correct...though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.
SHEPARD: What would happen to me?
CATALYST: You will become the Catalyst. You will continue the cycle as you see fit.
SHEPARD: And the Reapers will obey me?
CATALYST: Correct. There is one other solution. You may combine the synthetic and the organic.
SHEPARD: Combine? So, I just...
CATALYST: Add your energy, your essence, with that of the Crucible. The resulting chain reaction will transform both of our kind. We synthetics will become more like you, and organic life will become like us.
SHEPARD: So we'll just...go on living, together?
CATALYST: It is a very elegant solution. And a path you have already started down. The harvesting will cease. It will be a new ascension, for synthetic and organic life.
CATALYST (After choices explanation): But you must choose. - OR - But you must act.
CATALYST (Continued): I can't proceed. Go. If you don't, the cycle will continue, but I will no longer control the Reapers.
This is interesting not only because it states the technological singularity (and is more specific about the effects of each ending), but the Catalyst also gives a reason why it helps Shepard in the last line. Somehow, the Crucible permanently detached the Catalyst's control from the Reapers and it was afraid of them running rampant on the galaxy, and thus it needed Shepard to activate the Crucible.
Activating the Crucible suddenly becomes in both the Catalyst and Shepard's interests, giving more of a reason to trust it.
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VIII. Cut Codex Entry from ME2
Turns out there was a cut Codex entry from Mass Effect 2 detailing the technological singularity. This basically indicates that the writers didn't just pull the idea of the singularity out randomly. Click here to go directly to the codex entry ("Computers:Synthetics"). Unfortunately, I can't copy/paste it because...well, there's no room.
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IX. The Paperclip Maximizer
Tov01 suggested the paperclip maximizer as an effective metaphor for understanding the Catalyst's behavior and morals.
The paperclip maximizer basically exists for a single purpose and this purpose fuels its morals, leading it to have ethical codes that sometimes are completely at odds with humanity's (aka organics in ME). This is why it values the collective so strongly; its "paperclip" is to stop the technological singularity, and it simply seeks to forward that goal. In this case, we cannot change its mind or hope to agree with it because the moral codes involved are much more different.
This is a refreshing and different take on the Catalyst. I wanted to give it its own section because it means that we don't have to understand its logic; all that matters is that we want different things and should work to accomplish our goal rather than understand it.
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X. Conclusion[color="#ff0000"]
Many thanks to you, the reader, for reading through what is probably one of the longest posts on BSN.
I am humbled by the responses. This entire post is NOT something done entirely by myself but is a culmination of several other peoples' posts. Again, respecting the Catalyst's logic does not mean one has to agree with what it did. Please comment or bump if you liked it.
Cheers,
JShepppp
Modifié par JShepppp, 07 juillet 2012 - 07:39 .
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