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Why the Catalyst's Logic is Right (Technological Singularity)


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#251
FemmeShep

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OP, the problem people have with the logic is...

The Reapers don't just harvest civilizations, they outright genocide them. There is this really strange movement lately where people try to defend what they do by saying "they only harvest advanced civilizations, leaving the less advanced ones alone"....

But it's not as simple as that. The point isn't to just harvest, it's to wipe them out completely. To stop certain advanced civilizations from getting anymore advanced. So those that they don't harvest, have to be eradicated. Conversely, being "harvested" isn't a treat. It's far from being pretty. You lose your freewill, and become a mindless husk. I would argue it might be better to die!

We need to define the Reaper's end goal as provided by the Catalyst.

End Goal: to ensure that organic life can always live in the galaxy, by making sure organic life doesn't get too advanced that they create synthetics that will eventually stop all organic life from being able to live.

So in short, the end goal is to preserve Organic life's ability to live. It's to serve organic life. The system itself, is an aid to organic life.

And yet...harvesting and genocide was the best solution they could come up with? Da hell?

Let me give you a scenario:

Let's say that earth has become over populated. Someone comes up to you and is like: At the current rate, in 30 years all life on earth will die as there is too many people. So to make sure that earth can keep living, and that the future of mankind can continue to populate it, we must round up 1/3rd of the entire population and mass kill them.

Would you do it?

I know I couldn't. In fact, I would make the argument that everyone should die together. Because, no one has the right to decide who gets to live or die. Life isn't worth living, if we have to make a decision such as this, where we have to kill mass amounts of people.

So going back to the Reaper system/logic.

To help/serve organic life, they must kill and harvest them. Even though this is the future we are talking about, with untold science and advancements. And this is the best option we have. THAT is why people can't get behind the logic. It's a logic that says: in order to help something, we must hurt it. Actually it goes a step further. In order to help something, we must hurt it, by doing the thing that we are trying to help them not do to themselves. 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 29 mars 2012 - 04:56 .


#252
RohanSpartan

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Lets just agree to disagree.

#253
Excalceo

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3. If synthetics are the problem and the Catalyst is trying to protect organics, it should just kill Synthetics instead! A few things here. First, the Catalyst believes it's "harvesting/ascending" organics, not killing them.


Yes the Catalyst and the Reapers don't kill people...

...except the the alliance committee

...and everyone in the two shuttles at the beginning of the game

...and millions of people on Earth

...and nearly everyone in the Citadel

...and Palaven

...and Thessia

...and

#254
Ziggeh

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FemmeShep wrote...

So in short, the end goal is to preserve Organic life's ability to live. It's to serve organic life.

That's clearly not correct. Indeed, as you say, it's demonstrably false, what with all the killin'.

He's preserving organic life in the abstract rather than specific. He doesn't value individuals, so killing is not an issue

Now there is apparently some value placed on the ability to flourish as a civilisation, but this isn't ever made especially clear, maybe it's as simple as the best way to maintain their own numbers.

#255
xefiroEA

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1. The Catalyst is using synthetics to kill organics...but this is the problem it's trying to solve!

I never subscribed to the "Yo dawg" meme. It's true that the Reapers destroy civilizations to preserve organic life as a whole, so there's no contradiction there. It's a subtle difference that even some of the writers seem to forget at times, considering that some characters (most notably Shepard) sometimes slip into claiming the Reapers will destroy all life.

So yeah, it's methods follow it's stated goal. The problem though is that the stated goal is ridiculous. There's no mention, for example, of why the ideal of organic life is worth so much pain and suffering. Causing a cycle of unending genocide to avoid a single instance of genocide is not logical.

In other words, is it better to have a race of machines rise up and eliminate all organic life once, or to let organic life grow into civilization, and systematically eliminate these time and again? The reaper's solution actually causes far more suffering and death, by allowing life to recover between cycles.

2. In my playthrough, Joker/EDI hooked up and the Geth/Quarians found peace, therefore conflict isn't always the result! Several arguments can be made against this. First, giving two examples doesn't talk about the bigger, overall galactic picture (winning a battle doesn't mean the war is won, so to speak). Second, we haven't reached that technological singularity point yet by which creations outgrow organics - basically, when synthetics will normally come to dominate the galaxy. Third, evidence for the synthetic/organic conflict is there in the past - in the Protheans' cycle (Javik dialogue) and even in previous cycles (the Thessia VI says that the same conflicts always happen in each cycle).


Let me point out all the errors in your reasoning:

First, the Catalyst is the one making the claim that 'the created will always rebel against the creators'. Taken as a logical construct, finding a single case of contradiction proves it to be wrong. If I claim all cars are blue, and someone points out one car is red, I can't say I'm still right because maybe a later owner will paint it blue. EDI and the Geth are not proof that no synthetic race will ever rise up and destroy all organics, but they are proof that the Catalyst is wrong.

Second, even the proof you mention backs up the claim that the Catalyst is wrong, since the conflict appeared before and every time the organics prevailed. And in no example were the synthetics shown to be motivated by the desire to destroy organic life.

Third, you can't say that my circumstantial evidence doesn't count but that your circumstantial evidence (which I showed above to not support your claims anyway) is absolute proof. Logic doesn't work that way.

Fourth, the Catalyst has no proof that his claim is accurate. For him to have any proof he'd need an example of a single instance where synthetic AI grew to hate all organic life, overpowered it's masters and destroyed all organic life. Since this has never happened (else there would be no organic life left), the Catalyst has no proof. All it has is an unsubstantiated, easily proven false assumption, which it has used to wage a campaign of genocide on countless civilizations for millions of years.

 3. If synthetics are the problem and the Catalyst is trying to protect organics, it should just kill Synthetics instead!

I'll concede this. No one wants to have to obey the rules of some alien monster that thinks it knows better than you, and if allowed to continue to develop the races will eventually surpass the technological advancement of the Reapers.

You mention that the Reapers value diversity though and I disagree there. That's never stated or hinted. Apparently they're perfectly happy to create a human reaper and let the batarians, asari, quarians, turians, krogan, etc go extinct. Not to mention all the species of non-sapient lifeforms that go extinct when they destroy the biospheres of the planets they're reaping.

Even the idea that they're trying to encourage cultural diversity falls flat. Sovereign very clearly states that they left the technology behind to encourage the races to grow along very specific lines, so they could control the cycles more easily. That's going to lead to the same patterns repeating over and over, countless races retreading the steps of those that came before and finding the same dead end. The Reapers actively stifle innovation, by their own admission.

 4. The Catalyst should've done Synthesis instead of Reaping in the first place! First, doing synthesis may stop new life from flourishing by the Reapers' logic (see leaked script above); without clearing out more advanced races, younger ones might not be able to develop freely. Second, the Catalyst would've needed the Crucible. A pseudo-argument (i.e. not based on fact from the story, but interesting) can be made that the Synthesis was the long-term solution but the Catalyst would only enact it when the galaxy was "ready" for it by building the Crucible.


As shown above, the Reapers don't care about races developing freely. This is not their intention, and they actively work to avoid it. A race that developed spaceflight that didn't depend on the relay network would not be fragmented when they take the Citadel, after all. So no, this point is not something you can cling on.

"The Galaxy being ready" is a ridiculous claim. Everything in ME comes down to a single exceptional individual getting impossibly lucky. That's not a measure of galactic readiness. Or if it is, it's a very poor one. If you're waiting for the 'right time' to do something, it shouldn't be based on wether one person can accomplish the impossible. "Oh, Shepard tripped and broke his neck. I guess I'll have to kill everyone and try again. Pity, these guys looked like they were so close too." Not to mention, the Reapers always give the races of the galaxy a set amount of time, they're not looking for signs that they need to be either reaped or ascended. Although the most obvious way to show that reasoning to be false is that as soon as Shepard gets the Crucible in place, everyone is affected. All the developing races that would have formed the next cycle included. If you can ascend races that obviously aren't ready like that, why wait for anyone to be ready?

To be honest, the whole Crucible is another ridiculous contrivance. It's better not to try to think too hard about it.

 5. But...the Catalyst is justifying genocide! It doesn't view it as genocide. Rather than exterminating species, it believes it's preserving them and even stopping them from being exterminated or enslaving/exterminating others; arguably, it believes it's doing the exact opposite. But of course, it is actually genocide, and we should try to stop it. Just because the idea of what the Catalyst is doing is evil doesn't mean that its logic is flawed. I personally don't agree with its methods, but its reasoning seems sound.


The Catalyst would have to be very deluded to think it's not comitting genocide. It is perfectly aware (or would have to be, after millions of years of doing this) that the percentage of people that get reaped is a very small one, and most people die fighting the reaping. The people turned to husks and sent to kill the living are not getting reaped, for example. 

We're not told how the reaping works, in fact, so it may well be aware that even the ones that are reaped are killed in the process, and nothing of the living person is left in the reaper. What the Catalyst definitely thinks is that his genocide is justifiable. I don't see how this is a point you felt the need to argue though. People think the Catalyst is a monster, and you conclude that yes, he is a monster. Explaining that it doesn't think of itself as a monster is beside the point, and does nothing to justify its actions.

 
6. Wait, Sovereign/RannochReaper told us we couldn't comprehend them, but I understand this!
There are two ways to interpret what they said. One is that we actually couldn't academically comprehend it, in which case they must've been lying or it's just bad writing. Another is that we couldn't possibly comprehend the magnitude/scope of it, which is true. A human with a lifespan of 150 years (canon) can't comprehend hundreds of millions of years of organic evolution and stuff.


This is a literary device gone wrong, not something to argue about. The writers wanted to have their cake and eat it too. A lovecraftian horror from outer space that we can empathise with. If the motivations of the Reapers are too alien to be understood by humans, then the writers could not understand them either. If the writers can understand the motivations, then any human can. The way to get away with this is to never explain the monster's motivation. Better yet, never have the monster acknowlodge the human characters at all.

No human writer can write a character that is impossible to understand by human minds. Bad writers think they're so far above their audience that they can pull it off, which just makes their awesome monsters fall flat.

I've only focused on the points you brought up, but there are plenty of other issues with the Catalyst. One could ask why it feels the need to create Reapers, for example. Who is it preserving these civilizations for? A museum that no one can enter has no purpose. But that's probably more thought than the writers gave to the issue.

#256
dreman9999

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Excalceo wrote...

3. If synthetics are the problem and the Catalyst is trying to protect organics, it should just kill Synthetics instead! A few things here. First, the Catalyst believes it's "harvesting/ascending" organics, not killing them.


Yes the Catalyst and the Reapers don't kill people...

...except the the alliance committee

...and everyone in the two shuttles at the beginning of the game

...and millions of people on Earth

...and nearly everyone in the Citadel

...and Palaven

...and Thessia

...and

Results over means...Image IPB

#257
dreman9999

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The Grey Ranger wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

A self aware machine is give basic of self sufficency. They are give conceptsof self sevival. If it thinks it will think to keep alive.
It's an extention of the saying  "I think their for I am".
Only a cripple or shakaled AI would not try to stay alive because their ability to think is hampered.


This argument, really doesn't suceed.  Within the game we see AI's that have the virtues of mercy, loyalty, duty, love and self sacrifice.   That implies the abiltiy for an AI to have conventional moral frame work not just surival/self preservation.

1. The AI 's had to learn that over time like how and organic learns how to read and do math over time.
2. That still ignores the reaction of the organics that don't agree with the perservation of synthetic life.

#258
dreman9999

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tjmax wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But you understanding of right and wrong dictate what you know of your self and what you do.:whistle:


Is it? if your pup craps on the floor is it morals or is it cause you did not teach it not to crap on the floor?

Well, if that puppy doesn't know that it's wrong to do that then he/it is ignorante. He/it's just basing he's /it's morality based and what's right and wrong for his insticts. To him, he is do what right for his colen.

#259
dreman9999

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Xandurpein wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...


Exactly. Once synthetic life reach the level of complexity that it will begin to evolve, then the forces of evolution will make it just as "illogical" as organic life. The only way an AI can escape the forces of evolution is if it has no self-preservation, but then it won't rebel. Besides, eventually the same force of evolution will lead to a coding error (mutation) in an AI so it gets self-preservation and then that will take over.

AI, in ME, clearly are at that level of complexity. But that not my point, I mean the nature of organics to cause conflict. The synthetics may not want ware but organic may.  You know...This...


I mostly replied to your post that synthetic life in inherently different than organic life. I think that once synthetic life begins to evolve, it'll be thinking more and more like us organics, both the good and the bad. As for war being in human nature, I like to think that we have within ourselves both the roots to conflict and the means to overcome it. People with the savant disorder shows how much computing power the organic brain has, if it devotes less time to complex social analysis, and yet clearly this complex social analysis is favored by evolution.

Maybe at some point someone will create a synthetic life that is "greater" than us (whatever that means) and maybe this will frighten the creators. There's no reason to assume this synthetic life will be exterminating us just because of that.

That's my point but your taking to the point that they don't have self awarness. The problem with that think is that in that cause AI are not AI's.

As for ourselve, we reallly don't have it our selves to overcome are need of conflict . The people in ME based on ME1 and ME2 clearly don't. It would take get strain to do so. Only one race got over it, and that race was in the protheans time....And another rae came up and destoryed them because of there passiveness.

But any way the point is not that synthetic life will uprise and kill off organics....It that the conflict between organic and synthetics will cause a war so great that nothing will be left. It 's not that once done synthetic will kill all life...It that the war they'll have with organics will leave little to  no survivers on both sides left.

#260
dreman9999

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Xandurpein wrote...

The Grey Ranger wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

A self aware machine is give basic of self sufficency. They are give conceptsof self sevival. If it thinks it will think to keep alive.
It's an extention of the saying  "I think their for I am".
Only a cripple or shakaled AI would not try to stay alive because their ability to think is hampered.


This argument, really doesn't suceed.  Within the game we see AI's that have the virtues of mercy, loyalty, duty, love and self sacrifice.   That implies the abiltiy for an AI to have conventional moral frame work not just surival/self preservation.


There is no logical requirement for a self-aware AI to desire self-preservation. I fail to see why it can't be possible to program a self-aware AI that is still self-less and deisre no self-preservation. Slef-preservation is simply a trait that happens to be favored by evolution.

That because yor not understanding one of the definitions of self awarness requares a being to be able to self perserve themselves. If an AI does not protect itself, then it's not an AI.

#261
sean10mm

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It's terrible storytelling to have the end of your story hinge on a "philosophical" decision based on a premise that you've already disproved in the course of the story.

Star Child: Conflict between synthetics and organics is inevitable.
Me: I just unified the Quarians and the Geth against the Reapers, you stupid little runt.
Star Child: ???
Me: Yeah, I thought so.

#262
sean10mm

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EDIT: repeat post :mellow:

Modifié par sean10mm, 29 mars 2012 - 06:58 .


#263
spacefiddle

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You are missing the forest for the veins in the leaves.  Following logic and reason is most definitely not the same thing as being sincere.  Godboi may be sincere in its 14 lines, but that doesn't make what it says *logical,* even if it is *internally consistent* (which is debatable anyway).

It also doesn't explain the *methods* the Reapers use.  Only with tapdancing, smoke and mirrors can you make the Reaper's MO logical, rational, or reasonable in any way.  For all their advanced tech and supposedly lofty goals, they just go GRAAAH and start landing (why are they even landing?!) and wrecking stuff like Space Godzilla.

This is because 99.9% of the series presents the Reapers as horrible monsters.  If you then assert that the Reapers are not in fact horrible monsters, you have to prove that they aren't really being horrible monsters for the first 99.9%, and this is patently false.

Lastly, for this to be "logical," you would have to assert that the horrible and sadistic methods they use are somehow better for their goals than using more humane methods of achieving those same goals.  That is never even attempted; they are, instead, the definition of sadists.  Suffering for suffering's sake and/or personal gratification.  There is no logical reason given for it, or even hinted at.

Modifié par spacefiddle, 29 mars 2012 - 06:33 .


#264
CaliGuy033

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Thread summary: OP understands formal logic; many responders do not.

#265
spacefiddle

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CaliGuy033 wrote...

Thread summary: OP understands formal logic; many responders do not.

Amusing how you assert that without proving it.  Also, no.  And even if he does, Godboi most certainly does not.

#266
Wolven_Soul

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You wrote a good post, but I cannot agree with you.  Several times you point out that the Reapers do not view what they are doing as killing or genocide.  Well, just because they do not view it as such, does not mean that it is not.  After all, Hitler did not view the Holocaust as evil, but it was.  Not a perfect analogy, but still. 

Unless the people they harvest to make a new Reaper retain some kind of mental awareness within the Reaper, then I have to say...dead is dead.  Even if they do have that awareness, that is a existance to horrifying to ever consider.

Also, I still think that the geth able and willing to actually work with the quarian's refutes the starchild's logic.  The only time the geth have ever been hostile has been when Sovereign showed up and seduced a small faction of them away.  You can't prove your theory with your own involvement. 

#267
zarnk567

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CaliGuy033 wrote...

Thread summary: OP understands formal logic; many responders do not.


Yup, you changed my mind. who woulda thought being condescending and not reading any of the posts in here could do that. 

Modifié par zarnk567, 29 mars 2012 - 06:36 .


#268
Felene

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Sorry but when you need to write a whole wall of text to convince others that Catalyst's logic is right, you already miss the point.

It is not about how his logic works to solve the problem.

A simple analogy of how I view the whole Synthetics/Organics kill each other circular logic:

Since no matter how much food we eat, we are still going to get hungry again so let's just stop eating.

Or

Since we are all going to die anyway so why bother give birth to another child, let's just stop breeding and save ourselves the trouble of raising children only for them to die eventually.

You see the problem with Catalyst's logic now? Sure for some it might make sense and sounds logical and whatever idea they understand, but it will never make me follow it or agree with it on anyway.

IMO whoever invented this idea in BioWare should write an apology letter to his life and Shepard and us ReTakers for the terrible logic he forced on us.

Modifié par Felene, 29 mars 2012 - 06:44 .


#269
dreman9999

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Wolven_Soul wrote...

You wrote a good post, but I cannot agree with you.  Several times you point out that the Reapers do not view what they are doing as killing or genocide.  Well, just because they do not view it as such, does not mean that it is not.  After all, Hitler did not view the Holocaust as evil, but it was.  Not a perfect analogy, but still. 

Unless the people they harvest to make a new Reaper retain some kind of mental awareness within the Reaper, then I have to say...dead is dead.  Even if they do have that awareness, that is a existance to horrifying to ever consider.

Also, I still think that the geth able and willing to actually work with the quarian's refutes the starchild's logic.  The only time the geth have ever been hostile has been when Sovereign showed up and seduced a small faction of them away.  You can't prove your theory with your own involvement. 

Think of it thi way.
Remeber, morality is a fical thing because everyone has different moral standings. The spanish inqusition thought it was morally right to kill and troucher Jews in an atempt to turnthem into chistaity.
The reapers morality in one of apurely logical machine.
The morality the reapers are using is based on the meaning of being alive and living.
The concept of it can get warped based on morality. With us we see being alive means a sense of self idenity, ego, consusneses, self growth and so on. That why we see brain death as a form of true death. That brain dead person lost the fuction of their mind, everything about them is gone while their body lives. To a machine i't's different. Think about it this way,if your computers hard drive fails, do you morn it and bury it, or do you replace the broken hard drive?
That how machines think. To a machine a brain dead person is not dead. They would think to just replace th nonfuctional parts and the person is fine.

#270
dreman9999

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Felene wrote...

Sorry but when you need to write a whole wall of text to convince others that Catalyst's logic is right, you already miss the point.


.

That  wall of text is to explian how it thinks.

#271
Wolven_Soul

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Solmanian wrote...

Lmaoboat wrote...

Like I've said in other threads, even if the Catalyst is right, and peace is only temporary, EDI, Legion and the Quarian/Geth peace still contradicts the purpose of the Reapers thematically. If we are to accept that synthetics will always destroy organics, then the characterization of EDI and Legion, plus the Geth/Quarian peace feel like they were wasted. Why go through so much effort subtly showing Legions transition toward an individual if you're only going render it all pointless with a fatalistic theme the organics and synthetics will never be able to coexist for long?

Destroying organics doesn't neccessarily mean synthetics picking up guns and pew pewing them to death. According to the codex, the big fear from AI's is that they evolve so fast, far faster than organics. Ultimately they will make organics obsoletes. Observe how the geth were superior to organic society in almost every way, including morally.



If the synthetics are superior to organic society, including morality, then why this solution at all?  Wipe out organics and let synthetics have it.  Not saying that is what I want, just saying it makes sense from what you said.

#272
DarkBladeX98

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So you think that his conclusions based on whatever civilizations he was created in somehow apply to all civilizations that follow?
They don't give organic life a chance after their original cycle, so who are they to say that it will always end the same way?

#273
saracen16

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I don't think the Catalyst was just introduced out of the blue. We know that he or it exists from the very beginning of the game, but we don't know what he or it is.

#274
CaliGuy033

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spacefiddle wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Thread summary: OP understands formal logic; many responders do not.

Amusing how you assert that without proving it.  Also, no.  And even if he does, Godboi most certainly does not.


When you claim that 1+1 equals 3, nobody has to "prove" you are wrong.  Formal logic is math.  It's not up for debate.

#275
lillitheris

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I'm sorry, but it just does not make sense.

I'm glad that you were able to rationalize and invent your own theories to fill the holes, good for you.