1057 réponses à ce sujet

[Nobrandminda]

 "The created will always rebel against their creators," says the creator of a race of Synthetic life forms that are, as far as anyone can tell, as old as time itself.

There seems to be a flaw in his assertion.

[Balek-Vriege]

Nobrandminda wrote...

 "The created will always rebel against their creators," says the creator of a race of Synthetic life forms that are, as far as anyone can tell, as old as time itself.

There seems to be a flaw in his assertion.

Who says the Catalyst created them?  It only says it "controls" them.

The Reaper's and the Catalyst may have the exact same technological and historical origin (in the Reapers case, the means of making them).

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 02 avril 2012 - 04:59 .

[Zolt51]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

 The problem is this:

You can have a logical argument and still be wrong.

Well, the Reapers wouldn't be the main villains if they were *right* would they. I think the point the OP is trying to make is that there isn't any other way that's 100% foolproof to protect the galaxy from synthetics running amok and permanently destroying all organic life. The moment the reapers let organics grow and surpass them, their solution doesn't work any more. So they keep rebooting the galaxy.

Of course for any sane being the cost of that "solution" is just unacceptable. No one said the reapers were sane, just logical.

It would have helped if we had more context on the circumstances in which the reapers were first created.

[Kalas82]

JShepppp wrote...

WeAreLegionWTF wrote...

When you have to work this hard just to convince yourself something is wrong.

here, this is for trying...

I admit I'm confused. I tried to convince that something is right, not that something is wrong. Either you made a typo or I'm just legitimately unable to comprehend your purpose here. My apologies, especially if you were trying to troll.

The point beeing is that you just posted a massive wall of text to make the the following sentence work:

"Machines were created to kill organic life
cause organic life might someday create machines
which might someday kill organic life"

Which tells us

a) even if you are behind this nonsensical logic (i don`t want to attack anyone here but this wall of text didn`t make much sense at all) the execution within the actual game was bad, like realy realy bad.

Space-God likes assumptions or can see the future, cause the scenario this cycle-logic presents only works if you can actualy see the future otherwise things are always subject to change, even if Space-Brat came from a time where his cycle-logic made sense ( synthetics killing of all organic life) this doesn`t mean it`s a fundamental law.
And just out of this assumption creating a system where you let organic-life grow the way you want (which didn`t work to begin with) and then creating machines to reset everthing  to the start (which obviously didn`t work)
for millions of years (taking into account how organic-life we know progresses) is just dip****-crazy.

You and nothing (this includes Space-Brat) can prove this theory right or wrong, cause this would imply you or Space-Brat actualy can see the future till the end of time.
Space-Brat can`t see the future otherwise the ending of ME3 never would`ve happened (or he wanted Shepard to succed and ME3 beeing a biblical-sci-fi take on Jesus-Shepard and Space-God) so he dooms organic-life for eternity out of an assumption.....seriously?

Just as an example: The Quarians created the Geth, the war between both sides did happen but if we (Shepard) would`ve chosen to kill the Geth (which is something you can actualy do ingame) the only synthetic "race" at the time beeing would be no more. There are already laws in Shepards time which prohibit creating selfawere machines, yes there are always people who will try but what are the chances after the Geth-Quarian war a machine-race would evovle again to kill of all organic life?
Even if you safe the Geth -> Who knows if the Geth would ever realy want to kill of all organic life....right no one.
There`s no proof for it and no proof against it...it just plain assumptions that create the cycles-logic.

Modifié par Kalas82, 02 avril 2012 - 06:07 .

[Reznore57]

To me , the catalyst and the reapers are a singularity.
They're some machines (even if they're half organics , they're builds from the dead , they ain't born . How the first synthesis happened , i don't even wanna know , probably something bloody)which rule the galaxy how they see fit.
What does this mean , well , by their own logic ,if synthetic always wipe out organics ,they might do that too .(i'm pretty sure the catalyst thinks he's "special" , stupid brat)
And if they think synthesis is A ok , why didn't they turn everyone in reaper form and be done with it?
And of course they're logical they've created a pattern that can't prove them wrong.
Except even if organics life has been wiped out , it had appear again.And who's "protecting " life now?
Some creepy AI and his machine/meat jelly monsters.

[Kalas82]

Reznore57 wrote...

To me , the catalyst and the reapers are a singularity.
They're some machines (even if they're half organics , they're builds from the dead , they ain't born . How the first synthesis happened , i don't even wanna know , probably something bloody)which rule the galaxy how they see fit.
What does this mean , well , by their own logic ,if synthetic always wipe out organics ,they might do that too .(i'm pretty sure the catalyst thinks he's "special" , stupid brat)
And if they think synthesis is A ok , why didn't they turn everyone in reaper form and be done with it?
And of course they're logical they've created a pattern that can't prove them wrong.
Except even if organics life has been wiped out , it had appear again.And who's "protecting " life now?
Some creepy AI and his machine/meat jelly monsters.

You are absolutly right.
Even if the reapers and Space-God believe this theory to be true, their whole execution is just plain insane.
Why even wait for organic-life to reach the space-travelling-stage of evolution, why give them the mass-realys to spread thin around the galaxy. Why don`t they just harvest them when they are all sitting on their homeworlds and can be killed of with ease...it would still be nonsensical and stupid but atleast practical.
They got indoctrination, a massiv army and Space-God and couldn`t find any other solution...stoned writer ..there`s just no other explanation.
Them beeing some amazingly advanced artifical life-form would imply they use some kind of practical thinking....but they don`t,  they just do pot..a lot..and they can`t handle it.

Of course one can ****-slap "It is a thing you cannot comprehend" around, but that doesn`t make him or the story "cool".

The whole cycle-theory looks like something a realy bad fan-fiction would`ve created and i mean this in an absolut honest way.

[Balek-Vriege]

Kalas82 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

WeAreLegionWTF wrote...

When you have to work this hard just to convince yourself something is wrong.

here, this is for trying...

I admit I'm confused. I tried to convince that something is right, not that something is wrong. Either you made a typo or I'm just legitimately unable to comprehend your purpose here. My apologies, especially if you were trying to troll.

The point beeing is that you just posted a massive wall of text to make the the following sentence work:

"Machines were created to kill organic life
cause organic life might someday create machines
which might someday kill organic life"

Which tells us

a) even if you are behind this nonsensical logic (i don`t want to attack anyone here but this wall of text didn`t make much sense at all) the execution within the actual game was bad, like realy realy bad.

Space-God likes assumptions or can see the future, cause the scenario this cycle-logic presents only works if you can actualy see the future otherwise things are always subject to change, even if Space-Brat came from a time where his cycle-logic made sense ( synthetics killing of all organic life) this doesn`t mean it`s a fundamental law.
And just out of this assumption creating a system where you let organic-life grow the way you want (which didn`t work to begin with) and then creating machines to reset everthing  to the start (which obviously didn`t work)
for millions of years (taking into account how organic-life we know progresses) is just dip****-crazy.

You and nothing (this includes Space-Brat) can prove this theory right or wrong, cause this would imply you or Space-Brat actualy can see the future till the end of time.
Space-Brat can`t see the future otherwise the ending of ME3 never would`ve happened (or he wanted Shepard to succed and ME3 beeing a biblical-sci-fi take on Jesus-Shepard and Space-God) so he dooms organic-life for eternity out of an assumption.....seriously?

Just as an example: The Quarians created the Geth, the war between both sides did happen but if we (Shepard) would`ve chosen to kill the Geth (which is something you can actualy do ingame) the only synthetic "race" at the time beeing would be no more. There are already laws in Shepards time which prohibit creating selfawere machines, yes there are always people who will try but what are the chances after the Geth-Quarian war a machine-race would evovle again to kill of all organic life?
Even if you safe the Geth -> Who knows if the Geth would ever realy want to kill of all organic life....right no one.
There`s no proof for it and no proof against it...it just plain assumptions that create the cycles-logic.

First of all a wall of text isn't what you think it is.  The OP's post is perfectly formatted.   There's nothing wrong with making a well formatted extensive post.  Secondly some of your points are flawed in my opinion:

"Machines were created to kill organic life
cause organic life might someday create machines
which might someday kill organic life"

Is not a correct summary of what the Catalyst says.  You have Machine/Organic hybrids (which don't seem to get smarter, are controlled and haven't changed in at least 37 million years) that "harvest" highly technological civilizations before a major technological singularity occurs (The Yahg are spared in ME3 by the Reapers for example).  A singularity in which AIs would eventually outpace, outsmart and eventually overthrow their creators.  The eventual conclusion would be that organic life is dangerous, unnecessary or in the way.  Extermination of all of it forever, would be the best course of action.

Although the Geth/Quarian conflict sort of disproves that (only if you get the happy ending), you have to remember the Quarians attack unprovoked in ME3 because of emotional attachment to what they have lost and their hate for the Geth.  Synthetics may not start the war, but they will end it.  You can also argue the Geth are a tamed version of what the Catalyst speaks of, because their intelligence is severely limited by proximity.  They're a very slow technological singularity.

The Catalyst logic is pretty simple and applies to real life:

-Intelligent Organics eventually begin using tools to make their lives easier.
-They progress to a point where they can make a tool that does eveything they can do, but better.
-This tool is AI.
-Eventually AI is able to better itself and become more intelligent much faster than Organics.  The AI becomes a technological singularity.
-Conflict is destined, regardless who of starts it or why (Fear, logic, lack of resources, hate etc.)
-The eventual outcome is the superior force and intellect winning because of its very nature (AI).
-Again, it will decide based off this conflict, especially if its serious, that organics are too troublesome to be allowed to live.
-A process of organic extermination begins to rid itself of a threat forever.

No divination required.  It's just a likely scenario that the Catalyst was created or programmed to prevent.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 02 avril 2012 - 06:33 .

[Kalas82]

I`m sorry, "wall of text" aimed more for the amount of text, it was not meant to attack the poster (as mentioned).

And yet still you answer with the same thing over and over again -> assumptions
There`s absolutly no proof for this theory , not even for the statement " The created will always rebel against their creators"... or did you kill your parents? My toaster hasen`t tried to murder me, my PC sometimes tries but he fails hard. and don`t tell me now that i don`t get what sort of "creation" is ment...i`m joking cause everything else doesn`t exist right now and is what? -> an assumption.

If you can prove a theory it becomes reality, but if you can`t it just stays a theory.
And i honestly don`t care what anyone things is destined to happen cause i don`t believe in timetravel, magic-crystalballs or fortune-cookies i believe in chance and that the future is giant ballsack of possibilies (especialy when you look at organic-life).

Sure you can argue that the Geth are "tamed"...but they are exactly what? What facts are mentioned about them..right selfawere synthetics that adapt to new situations, everything else is again an assumption...so they are exactly what Space-God talked about.

I don`t mean to personal attack you or the TE but everything one uses to explain the logic behind this theory is just an assumption. Prove me wrong and i will accept it, but i bet half my salary you can`t...cause that would imply magic-crystal-balls.

And as i mentioned even if Space-God himself would think this stupid theory to be true...this was his only way of dealing with it? Seriously?

No, i`m sorry nothing can make this theory work or Space-Brats reaction to it. There`s no logic to it just "It is a thing you cannot comprehend" and lots of speculation form his and the reapers-side.



"Machines were created to kill organic life
cause organic life might someday create machines
which might someday kill organic life"

is absolutly right..or do you imply that the reapers weren`t created but popped of nowhere, their purpose is this cylce, cause otherwise things like them might be created which might then do their job better, cause the reapers always leave some inches of live untouched. That is exactly what is stated ingame. And it stays ridiculous no matter if you call the reapers machines, synthetics, bio-organic-machines or Bob.

Modifié par Kalas82, 02 avril 2012 - 07:07 .

[Reznore57]

You can't apply it to real life , it's just a theory.
And in Mass Effect , we witness machines having feelings .
Which mean some synthetic might join organics out of loyalty,empathy whatever.
Nothing is set in stone with being that can evolve and be self aware.
It 's as stupid as killing all organics because one of them might create a mass destruction weapon and blow the galaxy to hell.

The catalyst prevent something he's creating, he's leading every generation down the same path.
Besides he's a form of AI and he's "preserving " life , even if he can destroy it.

The only form of singularity we can witness is the reaper and catalyst , who had overcome organics life and act like kids playing god with an ant farm.
The catalyst is just a bot who's doing the same thing over and over again.At least he's not mad , he knows it will always turned out the same.
If you want a different result , you try to do a different thing.
Even when Shepard shows up ,he doesn't change his mind.It just gives him some other way to prevent this theoritical problem .
There's no proof of synthetic wiping out organics , and even if the catalyst witness that once , that doesn't make it a fact.

[Zine2]

Again, anyone who thinks technological singularity is real is an idiot who believes in the equivalent of space fairies and UFOs.

It has no basis in scientific fact.

[Gaddmeister]

So has the Catalyst set up operations with the reapers in the Andromeda Galaxy as well?

If not, then it could be in for a nasty surprise if the singularity has passed there:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda%E2%80%93Milky_Way_collision

[Balek-Vriege]

Kalas82 wrote...

I`m sorry, "wall of text" aimed more for the amount of text, it was not meant to attack the poster (as mentioned).

And yet still you answer with the same thing over and over again -> assumptions
There`s absolutly no proof for this theory , not even for the statement " The created will always rebel against their creators"... or did you kill your parents? My toaster hasen`t tried to murder me, my PC sometimes tries but he fails hard. and don`t tell me now that i don`t get what sort of "creation" is ment...i`m joking cause everything else doesn`t exist right now and is what? -> an assumption.

If you can prove a theory it becomes reality, but if you can`t it just stays a theory.
And i honestly don`t care what anyone things is destined to happen cause i don`t believe in timetravel, magic-crystalballs or fortune-cookies i believe in chance and that the future is giant ballsack of possibilies (especialy when you look at organic-life).

Sure you can argue that the Geth are "tamed"...but they are exactly what? What facts are mentioned about them..right selfawere synthetics that adapt to new situations, everything else is again an assumption...so they are exactly what Space-God talked about.

I don`t mean to personal attack you or the TE but everything one uses to explain the logic behind this theory is just an assumption. Prove me wrong and i will accept it, but i bet half my salary you can`t...cause that would imply magic-crystal-balls.

And as i mentioned even if Space-God himself would think this stupid theory to be true...this was his only way of dealing with it? Seriously?

No, i`m sorry nothing can make this theory work or Space-Brats reaction to it. There`s no logic to it just "It is a thing you cannot comprehend" and lots of speculation form his and the reapers-side.



"Machines were created to kill organic life
cause organic life might someday create machines
which might someday kill organic life"

is absolutly right..or do you imply that the reapers weren`t created but popped of nowhere, their purpose is this cylce, cause otherwise things like them might be created which might then do their job better, cause the reapers always leave some inches of live untouched. That is exactly what is stated ingame. And it stays ridiculous no matter if you call the reapers machines, synthetics, bio-organic-machines or Bob.

No worries I didn't take it anything as a personal attack.  


I completely agree it's just a theory but like any theory, that doesn't mean someone or something can't act upon it.  I'm not trying to argue it's 100% correct, but that it's logical and is a definite possibility.  I think the problem is that many think because its possible that Synthetics can get along with Organics or change their nature for the better, like EDI, that somehow that makes the Catalyst's concerns illogical or null and void.

It doesn't .  The theory and the possibility of the scenario is enough to give the Catalyst concern (or its creators).  Sure there could be hundreds of scenario's where organics are not wiped out and are able to evolve.  It's that one time when an AI has Galactic presence, attacks or is attacked and decided Organics are a perpetual threat.  Which means one time out of thousands, or a million, was enough to cause a major change in the natural order of things.   Not to mention that it doesn't have to be Synthetics that force themselves to this conclusion.

In real life if we had a technological Singularity which was peaceful, but started eating up resources, taking valuable argricultural land or huge parts of the Earth, how long would it be before we tried to do something about it?  When we finally do something about it, especially if it's hostile, what would you think the logical response would be?

-Let Humans live and remain a threat to your function, but try and coexist?
-Find a way to control humans and keep them from hurting you and themselves?
-Destroy all organic life since it's a threat to your function and isn't required to perform your function?

All three outcomes are possible, but the last one there's no going back from and solves the threat most efficiently.

Think of what the Reapers could do with their technology if they actually wanted to destroy all organic life.  They within 37 million years with Mass relays and FTL 10000x the speed of light, set up base and destroy organic life anywhere in the Galaxy.  They could even build an anti-organic crucible if they wanted to.  The reaping is child's play to what's possible.

Zine2 wrote...

Again, anyone who thinks technological singularity is real is an idiot who believes in the equivalent of space fairies and UFOs.

It has no basis in scientific fact.

Actually no.  It is actually a theory out there and is a possibility.  We just have no clue if it's viable yet because we aren't there technologically.  That would be like saying to someone 500 years ago they're an idiot/crazy if they think we will have the ability to travel in space, talk to eachother from across the world and use machines instead of horses for traveling.

Edit: By the way before I rush off to work.  There really isn't such a thing as scientific "fact."  Just theories widely agreed upon until disproven, or a more promising theory is found.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 02 avril 2012 - 02:21 .

[JShepppp]

Hey everyone, thanks for your input. Took me a while but I've updated the thread again. Jesus, formatting is a nightmare, especially with the colors...hope things are more easy on the eyes now though.

[Tov01]

Zine2 wrote...

Again, anyone who thinks technological singularity is real is an idiot who believes in the equivalent of space fairies and UFOs.

It has no basis in scientific fact.

Neither are the mass relays, but I don't see you complaining about them.

Presumably, whoever built the Catalyst went through their own singularity, and the resulting robot war caused them to start this whole mess in the first place.

[redbaron76]

Catalyst is wrong. Because if organic races evolve to point of creating a synthetic race, they will have enough military power to crush sysnthetic uprising. And If and when organic races evolve to the point to play god, they are more than likely to create another organic race than synthetic.So the point of technological singularity is irrelevant, becaus at that point organic races would have ability to ascent to higher plane of life as forms of pure energy.

[JShepppp]

redbaron76 wrote...

Catalyst is wrong. Because if organic races evolve to point of creating a synthetic race, they will have enough military power to crush sysnthetic uprising. And If and when organic races evolve to the point to play god, they are more than likely to create another organic race than synthetic.So the point of technological singularity is irrelevant, becaus at that point organic races would have ability to ascent to higher plane of life as forms of pure energy.

Aside from some big leaps of science fiction logic you're making, the main thing I think I see here is that you're trying to say that a singularity does not necessarily exist. That claim alone is enough to refute the Catalyst's logic if it can be backed up.

Unfortunately the nature of the situation is that there are no real-life facts or in-universe facts ("we haven't reached there yet") to support any idea really. But yes, if a tech singularity does not exist, the Catalyst's reasoning becomes completely false because the problem he's "trying" to solve doesn't exist.

[Larryboy_Dragon]

Nice rundown.OP

[Jafryn]

One of the major problems I have is that the singularity doesn't seem to exist in the Mass Effect world. Look at the Geth. They communicate and think at the speed of light, and yet in three hundred years they've barely changed at all. The Reapers haven't changed a bit in at least 37 million years, probably longer. And they were barely ahead of the Protheans in terms of technology.

In the Mass Effect universe, the speed of a species growth seems to decrease with the length of its lifespan. The Salarians and Humans are short lived and evolve at a rapid pace, while the Asari and Krogan are almost stagnant. The Geth and Reapers, who are effectively immortal, don't seem to evolve at all.

The singularity argument could work in the right setting, but the Mass Effect universe seems to run completely opposite to it.

Modifié par Jafryn, 03 avril 2012 - 05:45 .

[snfonseka]

Catalyst is trying to solve a problem that never existed in the first place. Because there is no evidence that any organic race managed to reach the "technological singularity" and then created the problem Catalyst explained (because ME3 doesn't explain the origin of Reapers).

So anyone who supports Catalyst ideas are "assuming" that organics will eventually reach the singularity. They also "assume" by reaching that singularity, there will be a "problematic" outcome and that outcome won't be reversible.

So basic logic of the Catalyst is depending on set of assumptions rather than actual evidence.

[Zine2]

Tov01 wrote...

Neither are the mass relays, but I don't see you complaining about them.

Presumably, whoever built the Catalyst went through their own singularity, and the resulting robot war caused them to start this whole mess in the first place.

Because while Mass Relays are actual fact within the game universe, "technological singularity" is STILL in the realm of paranoid fools even within the game.

Just because someone went through what they thought was a technological singularity doesn't mean it will happen again elsewhere. See EDI and Joker.

In short, the logic boils down to "I will murder you because you might be the Anti-Christ". It's again the logic of retards.

[B3ckett]

You're trying to make sense from a senseless ending. Kudos for that, but the main problem is: ME3 story is full of plot holes.
While ME1 created our image of the Reapers as mighty big and efficient beings, ME3 tore that apart. They are inefficient, they contradict their own logic. The pinnacle of evolution creates a portal just for you to threaten their plans and then, when you're already almost dead, wakes you up to make a choice. WTH?

Let's say it straight. ME3 has one of the worst writing in the history of BioWare. Hell, I'll give DA2 a spin, because it simply is better in terms of story and characters than ME3.
I can't believe I wrote that...

[Bill Casey]

If the cycle is set in stone and inevitable, surely the outcome of doing nothing would be "Organics and Synthetics will merge and become Reapers on their own"

I mean, that was the outcome of the cycle in which the Reapers didn't interfere. The cycle in which Reapers were first created...
Unless they went back in time and created themselves...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 03 avril 2012 - 06:54 .

[Leafs43]

Read OP's post....

Nope, still not buying it.

[Sett101]

Uh sorry but uh how could the reapers know? If they are the proof then they are what saying what we did was wrong and we can't let others do it we changed our minds? If the reapers were made after all synthetics killed all organics how did the organics that made them know they would have to evolve after the fact or the fact would have killed them. If it was happening and the reapers were the combined organics and synthetics involved you need space magic. At best they would have only their own history how can they say it has to happen when logic says it could have only happened once they know of.

[Zine2]

The Reapers couldn't know. The OP is relying on quack charlatan logic.

"Anything is possible! It's possible that you're the Anti-Christ! So I will kill you to save the world!"