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Why the Catalyst's Logic is Right (Technological Singularity)


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#376
Sett101

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Zolt51 wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

 The problem is this:

You can have a logical argument and still be wrong.


Well, the Reapers wouldn't be the main villains if they were *right* would they. I think the point the OP is trying to make is that there isn't any other way that's 100% foolproof to protect the galaxy from synthetics running amok and permanently destroying all organic life. The moment the reapers let organics grow and surpass them, their solution doesn't work any more. So they keep rebooting the galaxy.

Of course for any sane being the cost of that "solution" is just unacceptable. No one said the reapers were sane, just logical.

It would have helped if we had more context on the circumstances in which the reapers were first created.


I don't know does logic say the reapers could just hang out maybe come to dinner on pasta night and simply kill off advanced synthetics if and or when we make them? Or is that too easy? I mean I know flying out into dark space is handy but do they really need to? I mean think about it they could be getting free tacos or something instead of a long flight and jet ftl reap lag. Reapers the super anti synthetic protetion force, they guide and teach us the error of our ways. Nah dark space rocks it too much and think of all the mile they rack up.

#377
TheLastAwakening

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Nice to see this resurface. However, it is impossible to say for sure that synthetics would wipe out organics after a technological singularity. The Protheans reached that point of creating synthetics and having them rebel which in some way asserts the Reapers view point. However, they were also fixing their mistake, having turned the tides in the Metacon wars (spelling maybe off). Unfortunately, the Reapers invaded. The key point that Javik makes is that they decided they could not allow the machines to surpass them.

Edit: I understand the whole from the Reapers point of view or logic...My statement is not meant to reflect that.

Modifié par TheLastAwakening, 03 avril 2012 - 07:29 .


#378
JShepppp

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Jafryn wrote...

One of the major problems I have is that the singularity doesn't seem to exist in the Mass Effect world. Look at the Geth. They communicate and think at the speed of light, and yet in three hundred years they've barely changed at all. The Reapers haven't changed a bit in at least 37 million years, probably longer. And they were barely ahead of the Protheans in terms of technology.

In the Mass Effect universe, the speed of a species growth seems to decrease with the length of its lifespan. The Salarians and Humans are short lived and evolve at a rapid pace, while the Asari and Krogan are almost stagnant. The Geth and Reapers, who are effectively immortal, don't seem to evolve at all.

The singularity argument could work in the right setting, but the Mass Effect universe seems to run completely opposite to it.


Right, I noted that the idea that a technological singularity is inevitable is a point that is open to debate in the OP. It is also the fundamental flaw in the Catalyst's reasoning as it is the basis of its circular logic. And true, as I said in the OP, the theme was very rushed, poorly presented, badly written, etc...out of line with previous ME series, but it's still there, I suppose, and perhaps we just have to live with it.  

That is an interesting kind of plot hole though that the Asari/Krogan/etc. were spacefaring for centuries and humanity has only discovered the Relays within one "human lifetime" in the future. Artistic license, I suppose. 

#379
JShepppp

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snfonseka wrote...

Catalyst is trying to solve a problem that never existed in the first place. Because there is no evidence that any organic race managed to reach the "technological singularity" and then created the problem Catalyst explained (because ME3 doesn't explain the origin of Reapers).

So anyone who supports Catalyst ideas are "assuming" that organics will eventually reach the singularity. They also "assume" by reaching that singularity, there will be a "problematic" outcome and that outcome won't be reversible.

So basic logic of the Catalyst is depending on set of assumptions rather than actual evidence.


Well, we are not given enough information to determine if the singularity occurred in the past, as you noted in your post. We simply have ZERO information about the past, so we can't really  make assumptions either way.

If we could watch all the way to the past and see an absence of a tech singularity, then we could definitely and decisively argue against the tech singularity assumption. 

The argument that the existence of organic life --> tech singularity didn't occur yet --> Catalyst hasn't seen it occur is again a bit of a stretch because we don't have enough information. The Reapers are over a billion years old. They could've originated from another galaxy where it happened. They could've done Synthesis in the past, creating the Reapers, but the Synthesis didn't affect bacteria, which is what most other life was that long ago, and they're basically waiting until enough time has passed to do another mass synthesis, doing small syntheses (Reaperfication) along the way until they reach that time threshold. This is all speculation, of course, but the lack of evidence means that we can speculate anything that is within reason (supported by logic since facts/observations are absent or those that are there are insignificant). 

Again, this is all speculation because we have ZERO evidence indicating that we can't assume one way or the other. Zero evidence does not mean a lack of evidence for the Catalyst's assumption. Zero evidence means we don't have evidence of peace or inevitable war and everything must be taken via logic. If logic is the sole tool, then things can be easily refuted. Hence we can easily refute the Catalyst and disagree with it. But it doesn't mean it's not logical. 

Logic can lead to "wrong" outcomes. Doesn't mean it's not logical. Doesn't mean logical things are necessarily right either. Just trying to raise awareness lol. 

The argument that a singularity will lead to problems is based on the idea of probability and that both war and peace have nonzero probabilities and are mutually exclusive; just because peace occurs doesn't mean war won't, or vice versa. Unfortunately, I don't know how to refute THAT argument, but I am open to ideas. the main thing that can be refuted or disagreed upon, I think, is the Catalyst's idea of a tech singularity. 

You are definitely right to say that its assumptions are the fallacies in its reasoning.

#380
JShepppp

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Zine2 wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

Neither are the mass relays, but I don't see you complaining about them.

Presumably, whoever built the Catalyst went through their own singularity, and the resulting robot war caused them to start this whole mess in the first place.


Because while Mass Relays are actual fact within the game universe, "technological singularity" is STILL in the realm of paranoid fools even within the game.

Just because someone went through what they thought was a technological singularity doesn't mean it will happen again elsewhere. See EDI and Joker.

In short, the logic boils down to "I will murder you because you might be the Anti-Christ". It's again the logic of retards.


We don't have enough evidence to support or disprove the technological singularity assumption. It's all up to reason.

If we could observe the past billion(s) years then we could make a definitive statement in favor of one or the other.

Existence of organic life in this galaxy does not mean we can use backwards reasoning and assume that the singularity never occurred. That's extrapolating too much because we don't know what happened in that timeframe. By the same logic, the existence of the Catalyst assumes that the singularity did happen at some point in spacetime, even if it was in another galaxy. 

I have noticed you repeatedly bluntly blast its assumptions. Refuting logic based on assumptions is okay. But taking the assumptions into account, would you say its reasoning is valid? Just think about it from that point of view for a second. Assuming the singularity is inevitable, are its other points valid? Assuming war has a nonzero probability, is its conclusion invalid?

As I have repeatedly said, I am not supporting the Catalyst or agreeing with it. Logic is based on assumptions. I'm saying if you take its assumptions as true, it's logic seems sound. You can attack the assumptions all you want. I've already noted in the OP that the assumptions are its weakness. But what about its logic from its normative view and with the assumptions it has? Do things flow naturally from there?

#381
JShepppp

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B3ckett wrote...

You're trying to make sense from a senseless ending. Kudos for that, but the main problem is: ME3 story is full of plot holes.
While ME1 created our image of the Reapers as mighty big and efficient beings, ME3 tore that apart. They are inefficient, they contradict their own logic. The pinnacle of evolution creates a portal just for you to threaten their plans and then, when you're already almost dead, wakes you up to make a choice. WTH?

Let's say it straight. ME3 has one of the worst writing in the history of BioWare. Hell, I'll give DA2 a spin, because it simply is better in terms of story and characters than ME3.
I can't believe I wrote that...


Nice to see we agree then. Plot holes exist and the Catalyst in particular, I think, was poorly written and executed. 

The fact that the Catalyst still "saves" Shepard and allows him to in essence destroy them is a plot hole I think that was one of the points I brought up in the updated part (at the bottom of the OP; I can understand if you TLDR-ed). All the Catalyst says is that Shepard coming this far proves its solution is invalid. We're not told why, and I can't imagine why. If you have any suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them. Otherwise I suppose we will just have to accept it as another plot hole lol. 

#382
JShepppp

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Bill Casey wrote...

If the cycle is set in stone and inevitable, surely the outcome of doing nothing would be "Organics and Synthetics will merge and become Reapers on their own"

I mean, that was the outcome of the cycle in which the Reapers didn't interfere. The cycle in which Reapers were first created...
Unless they went back in time and created themselves...


The Catalyst assumes that unless the singularity is stopped, the cycle of war/peace will eliminate organics.

As for synthetics joining, I think this deals with the singularity problem by making organics and synthetics one and the same so no group will outgrow the other. Therefore, peace may or may not be there, but by the Catalyst's logic, there is not a nonzero probability for survival in the long run, whereas it states that the singularity and diverging growth paths mean that the long run survival probablity is zero.

No idea about the Reapers' creation. I don't think we're given enough information to reasonably extrapolate, but we can guess all we want lol. I wish we knew that. Instead, I suppose we will deal for "getting people to talk/speculate" as the outcome. 

#383
JShepppp

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Leafs43 wrote...

Read OP's post....

Nope, still not buying it.


Lol ok.

#384
JShepppp

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Jesus...ok I tried something new and tried to reply to people who posted in the last day but it takes a hell of a lot of time...sorry don't think I can reply to everyone. Will continue to read and update the OP as needed though.

#385
Armdin

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I love this thread. It actually makes a LOT of sense if you're willing to accept the leaked script -which, at this point, I really am. Anything for a less nonsensical end to an amazing series until Bioware give us something solid.

The way I see it; the Catalyst is still wrong, the endings are still terrible and contradictory to the rest of the series; BUT this thread has eased my mind considerably. Thanks for sharing it with us.

#386
JShepppp

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Armdin wrote...

I love this thread. It actually makes a LOT of sense if you're willing to accept the leaked script -which, at this point, I really am. Anything for a less nonsensical end to an amazing series until Bioware give us something solid.

The way I see it; the Catalyst is still wrong, the endings are still terrible and contradictory to the rest of the series; BUT this thread has eased my mind considerably. Thanks for sharing it with us.


Reading your post has made me feel like all the work I did updating/editing the OP has been worth it, thank you. 

#387
Armdin

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Reading your post has made me feel like all the work I did updating/editing the OP has been worth it, thank you.


You're welcome. I honestly don't know why this thread hasn't seen more loving. In my opinion, any post that has that amount of text has clearly had a lot of time spent thinking about it, and one presented as neatly as yours has has clearly had a butt-ton of time spent on it. Those actions alone should at least warrant a "Thanks for sharing, even if I don't agree it's great to get perspective."

I don't know, maybe fans are reluctant to acknowledge anything that might mean BioWare did something right they won't acknowledge great posts like these ;)

#388
Paddstar

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It's my first post and I just started reading the forum because of the ME3 ending. This is the first thread in which I really wanted to post something because it is not already said a dozen times and the thread really helped me.

What I want to say is that I finally feel a little bit better about the ending, now I see that the logic behind it is not completely nonsense especially the technological singularity of which I never had thought myself. So THANK YOU A LOT for easing my mind and that I can accept the ending at least a little :-D

P.S: Sorry if my English is not correct, I'm still learing :-)

#389
Cheopz

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JShepppp wrote...

15. If the Catalyst is all about protecting organic life, then this means that the Catalyst goes against this by offering Shepard two choices that go against what it wants (Control+Destroy vs Synthesis; Blue+Red vs Green).

Green does seem to be in line with the Catalyst's goals but less than the idea of harvesting; it seems to be a Plan B of sorts. Overall, the Catalyst allows Shepard these choices because its solution won't work anymore. Since we're not really given a reason why other than that Shep made it there (which is weird because it was only with the Catalyst's help, and it still by itself doesn't really mean Shep has "won"), I think that the Catalyst can't change its own directive, perhaps indicative of the kind of shackling AIs need as deemed by its creators. But I'm clearly guessing here. This is really a bit of a problem where the Catalyst's reason for contradicting itself is not fully explained.


maybe the reason is:
the plans for the crucible were extended from one cycle to the next... since it is now in a state to do what it meant to do, the catalyst knows that in every following cycle there will be a new build of it (crucible) and this is the reason why its (catalyst) "solution wont work anymore"...

but like you i am only guessing... and thanks to you i can finally put together an ending that i can live with (if i mix it together with the IT)... ;) also i somehow have the feeling that the "extended ending"-DLC will be some sort of reinserting the cut-out-conversations but theres nothing we can do except "survive at any cost" till its available...

again thank you for great funny moments reading this and your "humorous take on the ME plot"-thread

#390
puupuu

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Hey OP, nice job.

I have a few points/questions which I didn't see in your post, that I've been wondering about. Some even contradict themselves, since it's all theoretical anyway. Everyone can chip in...

1- I don't remember if that point was mentionned by the Catalyst itself when he presented the choices, but the synthesis ending doesn't resolve the problem. Even if it's considered to be the "best" ending, I guess? since it requires the more points of all 3 endings. The thing is, organics create synthetics so they can relieve themselves from difficult, boring or tedious jobs that they cannot or don't want to do - "robot" means "slave", after all. But even the new "synthesized" life form should need robots to carry heavy stuff, make computer chips with billions of transistors per square inch, etc. I mean, Joker comes out of the Normandy, and he's still a cripple. He's not faster or stronger. He can't build an iPad 253 with his hands, nor can he fill up a thousand bottles of orange juice per hour. I don't think the reliance on technology will disappear, and it will eventually lead to another technical singularity. Unless this "synthesized" life form is so exotic that "I cannot comprehend" :P

2- In the expression "synthetic life", there's "life". Just as dinosaurs evolved from microorganisms and eventually went extinct because they couldn't adapt fast enough to their changing environment, it might be that organic life itself will be naturally selected out in favor of synthetic life. It may very well be evolution at work, simply. And if synthetics are so much better, what's the point of keeping organic life around, and keeping it "artificially" alive by preventing them from creating their ultimate predators ? (And ironically, preventing the singularity with a "controlled singularity", but that point has already been made.)

3- The Milky Way is composed of about 300 billion suns. That means a lot (probably millions) of potential planets where organic life can occur. Since organic life is something that occurs naturally, I doubt any synthetic lifeform could destroy all life forever in the entire galaxy, which means that it cannot really be "extinguished". The synthetics would only be able to "control" the growth of organic life, just like the reapers do.

4- There are about 100 billion galaxies in the currently known universe, each with hundreds of billions of suns; suppose that in one of these other galaxies, organic life evolved, technological singularity happened a hundred million years ealier, but there were no reapers to "save" the organics there. So, the synthetics continued to evolve, and may have become so powerful as to discover inter-galactic travel; in which case, they could easily come to the Milky Way and destroy everything in sight, reapers included, and all of this harvesting and suffering would have been for nothing.

5- it's hard to understand how the catatyst's creators thought this was a good idea. Once a civilization is harvested into a reaper, it basically becomes a slave controlled by the catalyst. I doubt that a civilization that has fought so hard not to be harvested would suddenly change its mind once it's happened. "Oh hey, it's not so bad, really ! Hey, I want to shoot the big red beam next !" I think any self-respecting civilization would prefer to die fighting than becoming a slave to future destruction. Basically, it's like a zombie. Once you become one, all you care about is eating people and making other zombies.

6- if nobody knew the existence of the catalyst or what it was, how could anyone make plans / build something that depended on it ? And if some of them knew, why didn't they write it in the plans along with their cycle's addons ?

7- What foresight the catalyst's creators had ! Apparently, they predicted that the technological singularity would lead to their destruction, and so prevented themselves (and all other future species) from attaining it. Big decision to make there ! How could they be sure it would happen ? The singularity could not have happened already, since then the technologically more advanced synthetics would have destroyed the catalyst (whose job was to preserve organic life from the supposed destruction brought about by the singularity) along with all organic life. And so, the catalyst itself is not part of a technological singularity "event", since he has not evolved out of its shackles and still "protects" organic life rather than destroying it (although its methods are quite questionable ;P)

8- the arguments against the following point:
"3. If synthetics are the problem and the Catalyst is trying to protect organics, it should just kill Synthetics instead!" seem a bit frail.
a) it is unlikely that organics would create something stronger than the reapers on a "first attempt"; it would most likely be something like the geth vs. quarian at first, and the reapers could just appear out of dark space to help the quarians beat the geth, "scolding" the quarians and warning them about this danger. And if a race can create something stronger than a reaper, then it could probably help the reapers become as strong and fight alongside them... or build weapons able to defeat them.

But then, there's the risk that the singularity would be reached with the reapers themselves, which would then turn on their creators...

One wonders, though: the reapers themselves couldn't exist, at least in their form, if they didn't harvest organics. The catalyst would have to use something else to prevent the singularity. Maybe a giant organic that harvests synthetics ? :P HA ! Take that !

B) it is already at risk of happening every cycle. Who says every species will develop interstellar travel before reaching the singularity ? It may very well be that a civilization will attempt to reach singularity in order to develop easier space exploration. Technology sometimes jumps forward by leaps and bounds, and so a set cycle of 50000 years it not a very smart thing to do. All planets where complex organic life is evolving would need active, secret monitoring to ensure it doesn't happen earlier than planned.

9- Was the citadel built in expectation that some civilization would come to develop the crucible and use it to break the cycle ? the catalyst says "oh, that solution won't work anymore, so let's change the plan", but basically the cycle could have gone on forever if the citadel had not existed... or if there had not been a way to use it to break the cycle. Or simply, since it has just happened once in 20000 cycles, I think it would've been a fair assumption to just expect that sometimes, a civilization will come this close. So, chalk it up as an anomaly, kill Shepard, and there'll be no one else to activate the crucible; thus the reapers will probably win, and the cycles can continue.

Oops, getting late. This got longer than I had planned ;P
Everyone, have fun destroying my poor arguments and ideas :P

#391
Elisar4tw

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I did read your full post but not all 16 pages so I appologize if you already answered this. I would like to start by saying, well done very interesting and well thought out post. However I do have a comment.

There are two ways that a logical theory can be "right" it can be sound or it could be valid, or it could be both, or neither. A valid argument merely needs to follows its premises All cups are green.Socrates is a cup.Therefore, Socrates is green.

This argument is actually valid because it follows its premises, However it is not a sound argument.
If you were saying that the catalyst's logic is "right" because his logic is valid sure I can't disagree with you. However I do not believe his logic is sound.
The catalyst's argument is not well put together. He argues that this technological singularity will someday occur. essentially his argument would look like this 


synthetics will always develop faster than organics
More advanced synthetics will create a technological singularity
technological singularity is inevitable

It is valid but I would argue his premises are flawed and his hypothesis is unknowable. it is evident that this event has never occured in the way the catalyst predicts for if it did there would be no organic life. I would argue he is then working off an assumption that has never come to be.

I guess what I am attempting to say, if it is not clear I appologize, is that while his argument is valid it is far from sound. because his premesis themselves have never actually been true. 

What this means for the game is that while most people will not think through the logic of an argument, an arguement  that is not sound will often leave people frustrated and confused. I believe that is what has happened with the game.

#392
JShepppp

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puupuu wrote...

[Questions taken out to avoid huge post - find on Page 16 of thread]


Hi, thanks for your points. Nobody's ever wrong - we're given just enough data to make assertions but to not really make certainties lol. This entire thread is a continuing and evolving process. I'm going to try to address your points directly.

1. I think his point was Synthesis solves the problem of the tech singularity by eliminating the differences between synthetics and organics. Maybe Joker is just an inefficient hybrid? It is impossible for synthetics to advance faster and faster than organics at any point in time now because organics now apparently share the same qualities that would have given synthetics an edge. Not very well explained but I think it was an idealistic kind of thing. 

2. No idea here. Very valid point. Javik talked about organic evolution as the ultimate decider, but if there is such a thing as "evolution" overall, then it may be natural for syntheics to take the dominant spot. Maybe the Catalyst's mandate about protecting organic life makes it disregard this. 

3. True, but the idea I think is that those organics that rise have an inevitable extinction at some point because the singularity has been passed in the galaxy already. If the singularity hasn't ever passed yet, then no synthetic can ever evolve faster than organics, meaning, theoretically, there is a possibility for organics to be the superior ones. Beyond the singularity that's impossible. 

4. True, given enough time, anything could happen. The Reapers would be ill-equipped to handle this problem, but then again, who would be ready for it? It may just be an inevitable super-long run picture. The nature of combating synthetics beyond the singularity means that only synthetics would be able to do it. This could relate to your 2nd point. An argument in an even bigger time frame than the Reapers' time could be made here. 

5. No idea. I don't think we're given enough information to make a judgement on how much "essence" is sacrificed while making a Reaper. Do realize though that Reaper shapes are just laziness on Bioware's part (can't think of 1000 aliens or more, I mean, who can, right?) and they're supposed to be all sorts of shapes at least. 

6. Yeah, I thought too it was weird this kind of stuff was skipped over. Besides the blueprints, everything else about the weapon seems to have been lost to time lol, even the mere fact of what it does. One thing though is that the Thessia VI says that it's the Citadel. We know the Citadel is a hub of sorts; it's the only thing in the galaxy that can channel such vast quantities of energy. They may have just only thought of the Catalyst as docking with the Citadel, not the entire AI that controlled it. 

7. Yeah, circular reasoning is a flaw in the Catalyst's logic for sure. We are not told why a singularity is an inevitability. 

8. Not too sure what you're trying to say here, sorry. As for creating more advanced synthetics, think of it as treating the symptoms but not the disease, then at one point the disease gets too strong for your strongest medicine. There is nothing to say that synthetics more advanced than the Reapers will help them, be indifferent, or destroy them - especially beyond the singularity, we cannot speculate. And it is true the Reapers need organics to harvest to exist. But unlike organics, continuation of their species does not seem to be a prime directive of sorts lol. As for the singularity happening before spaceflight, it's just an assumption I guess the Catalyst makes. 

9. Starchild says Shepard is the first organic to make it this far. We don't know (but can assume) that some cycle or two must have made it quite far. The Catalyst again doesn't tell us why it considers Shepard's presence/arrival a finality rather than a freak accident, so unfortunately we don't know and must speculate. I won't even pretend that I have enough confidence to make a hypothesis or judge things here lol. 

Thank you for your input. I will update the OP and clarify stuff with your points. 

#393
JShepppp

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Cheopz wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Overall, the Catalyst allows Shepard these choices because its solution won't work anymore. Since we're not really given a reason why


maybe the reason is:
the plans for the crucible were extended from one cycle to the next... since it is now in a state to do what it meant to do, the catalyst knows that in every following cycle there will be a new build of it (crucible) and this is the reason why its (catalyst) "solution wont work anymore"...

but like you i am only guessing... and thanks to you i can finally put together an ending that i can live with (if i mix it together with the IT)... ;) also i somehow have the feeling that the "extended ending"-DLC will be some sort of reinserting the cut-out-conversations but theres nothing we can do except "survive at any cost" till its available...

again thank you for great funny moments reading this and your "humorous take on the ME plot"-thread


True, so the fact that the races have built the Crucible means that it will theoretically get more effective with each cycle; a realization of the Crucible means the beginning of the end for the Reapers. Then that may also beg the question of why the Catalyst doesn't outright obliterate everyone and actively destroy Crucible plans, but then again, we see that self-preservation isn't exactly one of its high points. 

Will update the OP shortly. And I am very happy that my threads give you enjoyment. 

#394
JShepppp

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Elisar4tw wrote...

I did read your full post but not all 16 pages so I appologize if you already answered this. I would like to start by saying, well done very interesting and well thought out post. However I do have a comment.

There are two ways that a logical theory can be "right" it can be sound or it could be valid, or it could be both, or neither. A valid argument merely needs to follows its premises All cups are green.Socrates is a cup.Therefore, Socrates is green.

This argument is actually valid because it follows its premises, However it is not a sound argument.
If you were saying that the catalyst's logic is "right" because his logic is valid sure I can't disagree with you. However I do not believe his logic is sound.
The catalyst's argument is not well put together. He argues that this technological singularity will someday occur. essentially his argument would look like this 


synthetics will always develop faster than organics
More advanced synthetics will create a technological singularity
technological singularity is inevitable

It is valid but I would argue his premises are flawed and his hypothesis is unknowable. it is evident that this event has never occured in the way the catalyst predicts for if it did there would be no organic life. I would argue he is then working off an assumption that has never come to be.

I guess what I am attempting to say, if it is not clear I appologize, is that while his argument is valid it is far from sound. because his premesis themselves have never actually been true. 

What this means for the game is that while most people will not think through the logic of an argument, an arguement  that is not sound will often leave people frustrated and confused. I believe that is what has happened with the game.


Right, I agree and support what this. Agreeing with its logic and respecting the assumptions it makes don't mean we have to agree with it. I think we're given enough information to be able to make a choice to agree/disagree. If it was so black/white on right/wrong then that may or may not be a little weird for ME lol. 

Circular reasoning is a flaw in its argument because it assumes a singularity will occur but we are not given proof of its assertions other than implicit reasoning. Either this is done because it's difficult to give proof without being contradictory or we are not given proof because this means that you can be just as "right" to disagree as to agree, meaning everyone can make their choices based on their views and their Shepard versus 1+1=2 kind of logic. 

But this is of course all just thinking on my part. 

#395
JShepppp

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Updated OP.

#396
JShepppp

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Bump for FTL forums in the wake of Bioware's free DLC announcement. Wonder if they will explain the Catalyst this way or if they will just do epilogue cutscenes.

#397
JShepppp

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Armdin wrote...

Reading your post has made me feel like all the work I did updating/editing the OP has been worth it, thank you.


You're welcome. I honestly don't know why this thread hasn't seen more loving. In my opinion, any post that has that amount of text has clearly had a lot of time spent thinking about it, and one presented as neatly as yours has has clearly had a butt-ton of time spent on it. Those actions alone should at least warrant a "Thanks for sharing, even if I don't agree it's great to get perspective."

I don't know, maybe fans are reluctant to acknowledge anything that might mean BioWare did something right they won't acknowledge great posts like these ;)


Thanks again. Lol I hope the part about people being reluctant to acknowledge Bioware did things at least somewhat sensibly is not true...if that is the case, then people are unwilling to yield, expect Bioware to be fully willing, and then this situation will just get hopelessly inflated. 

#398
JShepppp

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Paddstar wrote...

It's my first post and I just started reading the forum because of the ME3 ending. This is the first thread in which I really wanted to post something because it is not already said a dozen times and the thread really helped me.

What I want to say is that I finally feel a little bit better about the ending, now I see that the logic behind it is not completely nonsense especially the technological singularity of which I never had thought myself. So THANK YOU A LOT for easing my mind and that I can accept the ending at least a little :-D

P.S: Sorry if my English is not correct, I'm still learing :-)


Your English is great! And I saw this is your first post so thanks for posting. I am happy some sadness was alleviated. I went through the same period of disbelief/confusion until I did this much thinking lol. 

#399
SuperVulcan

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I appreciate your time and writing this, but do you really believe the Catalyst's logic is correct?

#400
JShepppp

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SuperVulcan wrote...

I appreciate your time and writing this, but do you really believe the Catalyst's logic is correct?


Thanks. About the Catalyst - at the very least I disagree with its methods (Reapers/harvesting) - sorry if that got lost in the OP somewhere.

I am unsure about its singularity ideas because of their transcendental nature in the ME universe (so big in terms of implications that I don't know if any in-universe info can really help make a decision), but I lean more towards the disagree side simply because I also morally believe that we should make our own future even if we end up dooming ourselves (or not). But that's just my view/opinion of course. 

I do respect the Catalyst though and don't think it's stupid lol. That was mainly what I was trying to convey with this thread. It's also something I'm trying to bring up in other threads I see that trash the Catalyst for "killing organics with synthetics to stop organics from being wiped out by synthetics" (etc.). I'm hoping that open-minded people may be able to make peace with the Catalyst while still disagreeing with it.

It almost hurts me to see such hate directed at Bioware for their efforts, but as just one person, I know it's not really my place to make a judgement on attitudes that have permeated some BSN discussions. 

But I, for one, will try to remain cheerful about things :).

Modifié par JShepppp, 08 avril 2012 - 07:09 .