1057 réponses à ce sujet

[omphaloskepsis]

OK, since this thread is still going, I'm going to gripe.  Keep in mind that I think you (JSheppp) have done a really great job here, and that I feel (as I stated before) that you're doing a lot of work that the writers should have done to make sense of the mess, so I'm going after how your OP relates to the story as told...

First:  appeal to probabilty.  There are two issues with this (besides the fact that it's a logical fallacy):
Problem 1: A greater than zero chance of something happening in the future doesn't mean much.  An infinite number of monkeys will be able to reproduce the works of Shakespeare, but if you reduce the number of monkeys to a more reasonable number, like, say, the number of particles in the known universe, suddenly you're going to be waiting a long, long time.  Billions of years won't cut it.  The lifespan of the universe might not cut it.

Problem 2:  There's a greater than zero chance of all sorts of crazy things happening.  There's no reason to believe that total organic genocide as a result of a tech singularity is more likely than ascendance, or many other fill in the blank options.  We could assume that the starchild has done the math, but there's no evidence to support this in-game (or elsewhere) other than the starchilds word.  And there's no reason to trust the starchild, except from metagaming, if at all.

Second: ascendance.  The starchild controls all of the reapers, and offers you control of them.  That means no free will for them.  Either the reapers have been slaves for a billion years (indoctrination), or they're brains in a jar.  That doesn't jibe with any definition of ascendance.  It's the polar opposite extreme.  It also means that the starchild is either insane or lying.

Third: singularity and the lack thereof.  The definition of a tech singularity depends on an exponential explosion of knowledge, technology, etc.  And this is coupled with the development of AI.  It's been 260 years since the Geth war, and there's no singularity in sight.  Similarly, the Prothean AIs didn't go down the singularity road.  The reapers don't seem to have achieved singularity, either, considering their methods and technology.  So the chance of a singularity happening is apparently vanishingly low in the ME universe.  So low, that an appeal to probablility based strategy makes even less sense.  Also, if the reapers haven't reached singularity, they can't guess at the results of a post-singularity culture.  That's also pretty much by definition.

So the results I get from the above issues are that:  either the starchild is insane, the starchild is lying, or the writers had no idea what they were talking about and just threw a bunch of techno-babble at their fans hoping it would overwhelm.

Modifié par drewelow, 19 avril 2012 - 06:00 .

[varteral6162]

Anyone who played ME1 complete the assignment Citadel: Signal trafficking remember the AI met at the end of the assignment says "Organics will always attempt to destroy or control all synthetics".

[JShepppp]

 Personal replies will be short (sorry) to save space, not because I'm irritated or anything. Thanks a lot for continuing to give input. OP will be updated shortly. 

@vv238email: Your thread has a lot of valid points that I unfortunately can't answer here, but I'll try to comment there. If you'd like, I can link it in the OP (send me a message). Also I know this thread's name is a misnomer - it'd be weird to have a game villain who's 100% right - but the main point is just to show the Catalyst isn't overly stupid or anything. I'm sure everyone - including myself - still disagrees with it regardless. But I can try to respect its reasoning.

@Belisarius09: Yup, I was of the same idea when I played and still am. Your ending choice of course speaks to how you agree/disagree with the Catalyst. You will always disagree with its methods, ending the Reaper cycles. 

@justlogme: As for synthetics killing hybrids, that's a side thing because it's mainly worried about the technological singularity. Clearly it has no problem with the Geth fighting Quarians. As for shackled AIs, the idea I think is that eventually as technology becomes more advanced, it will just take one unshackled AI to do it. And people tend to unshackle AIs to increase their capabilities, just like EDI. 

@Cazychel: Thanks. And yeah, a lot of plot holes were created. I don't have any answers to those or even any rudimentary speculatory ideas - those questions could form entire threads of their own lol. 

@ardensia: Thanks. 

@Hawk227: Forgot about that lol, can't believe I did. Thanks for bringing it to the front. Added it in to the discussion of whether or not the Reapers are post/pre singularity. Lol it always seems that Sovvy is at odds with the Catalyst (opening the Citadel, Reaper "free will", singularity/evolution, etc.). Perhaps evidence of lackluster or sloppy writing. 

@drewelow: Welcome back, and thanks lol. Your first two points about probability are very relevant and indicate a rather big leap of faith we have to take, and any leaps of faith are, after all, flaws. I put it into the OP. As for having Reaper "free will", Sovvy and the Catalyst are at odds with one another, and we don't really know to what extent it'd work. It could be that the Catalyst can only give prime directives of a sort with individual Reapers having some degree of free will within the constraints. I'm not too sure. That is, of course, another contradiction. You are of course free to assume the Catalyst is insane in which case destroy is probably the best option, or control with the intent that you'll render the Reapers inert and/or destroy them later lol. 

@varteral6162: Interesting quote. It's a broad generalization, sure, but there is a view that synthetic life is supposed to be subservient to organics, and that view itself can lead to a lot of conflict. 

[JShepppp]

Updated OP. Formatting is difficult lol.

Quick formatting question to anyone out there - whenever I update the OP, in the text box, it shows that the colored text is colored (red/green here), but if I submit, then it's suddenly the normal grey. Basically, every time I update the OP, I've had to "re-select" the colors for the specific red/green text. Is there a way to make the color change permanent instead of having to redo it each time?

Modifié par JShepppp, 20 avril 2012 - 02:48 .

[Orumon]

Sorry, but the catalyst does not provide proof to back his arguments, while all evidence comes out against him.

I doubt the Catalyst ever encountered technological singularity, barring the crucible itself. This hints that he's just as limited as every other being. Hence why the reapers can be beaten.

[JShepppp]

Orumon wrote...

Sorry, but the catalyst does not provide proof to back his arguments, while all evidence comes out against him.

I doubt the Catalyst ever encountered technological singularity, barring the crucible itself. This hints that he's just as limited as every other being. Hence why the reapers can be beaten.

I personally think we don't have enough evidence either way. Part of it has to do with the nature of the problem - a tech singularity by its nature cannot really be proved until it's reached, and we can't really predict what'll happen afterwards, so the entire thing kind of comes down to a massive thought exercise lol. 

[Hawk227]

JShepppp wrote...

 @Hawk227: Forgot about that lol, can't believe I did. Thanks for bringing it to the front. Added it in to the discussion of whether or not the Reapers are post/pre singularity. Lol it always seems that Sovvy is at odds with the Catalyst (opening the Citadel, Reaper "free will", singularity/evolution, etc.). Perhaps evidence of lackluster or sloppy writing. 

Well, I think its evidence of one of two things 1) that the catalyst is lying or 2) the writers dramatically changed direction in ME3.

1) I've never seen much reason to trust the catalyst. He's a brand new character. He takes the shape of the boy haunting shep's dreams. You have to do dive in deep into his reasoning to even propose that his logic isn't circular (as evidenced by this thread), He claims that Org vs. Synth. is a major problem, but since the end of ME1 we've not really seen any reason to believe this is true. 2 out of 3 of his new solutions are not solutions to the Org. vs Synth. conflict (Destroy and Control remove any safeguard against synthetic advancement without finding a new one). This could be signs of bad writing, but it's pretty out of place in the context of the trilogy, which has been reliably solid.

Where as Sovereign was consistent throughout ME1, and what we learned from Vigil and later Harbinger seemed to fit. If sovereign and the catalyst are at odds, its sovereign I'm inclined to believe. This is additionally true because the existence of the catalyst in the manner it claims would negate virtually all of ME1 (controlling the reapers, saren needed to open citadel), as you've pointed out.

2) It's possible that through ME1 and ME2, the writers thought of the Reapers as post-singularity, but decided in ME3 that they wanted a "deeper" ending and tried to change it up. A sort of revisionist ending. As you've shown, the final sequence of the catalyst works okay in a vacuum (separate from the rest of the story), but as the commenters have shown (I think) when the rest of the story is considered, it falls apart. I wouldn't call this sloppy writing per se, but a very poor direction choice. An ending unsubstantiated by the journey. Although, in having written that, it sounds like semantics.

Modifié par Hawk227, 20 avril 2012 - 08:28 .

[hippanda]

JShepppp wrote...

16. The technological singularity doesn't mean organics will always be outpaced by synthetics because organics can update themselves with synthetic parts.

This is the Synthesis ending, which the Catalyst believes is the "best" ending because it ends the problem of the singularity. However, in Javik's cycle, we learn a race tried to do this but the synthetic parts decided to discard the organic parts because they were inefficient (or something like that).

The Zha'til were under the influence of the Reapers when they seized control of their organic hosts.

[The Angry One]

hippanda wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

16. The technological singularity doesn't mean organics will always be outpaced by synthetics because organics can update themselves with synthetic parts.

This is the Synthesis ending, which the Catalyst believes is the "best" ending because it ends the problem of the singularity. However, in Javik's cycle, we learn a race tried to do this but the synthetic parts decided to discard the organic parts because they were inefficient (or something like that).

The Zha'til were under the influence of the Reapers when they seized control of their organic hosts.

And they didn't "discard" their organic parts either, they remained hybrids.

Amazing how the Reapers managed to deliver an impressive one-two punch to their own philosophy, by their own actions, with the Zha'till.

[JShepppp]

The Angry One wrote...

hippanda wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

16. The technological singularity doesn't mean organics will always be outpaced by synthetics because organics can update themselves with synthetic parts.

This is the Synthesis ending, which the Catalyst believes is the "best" ending because it ends the problem of the singularity. However, in Javik's cycle, we learn a race tried to do this but the synthetic parts decided to discard the organic parts because they were inefficient (or something like that).

The Zha'til were under the influence of the Reapers when they seized control of their organic hosts.

And they didn't "discard" their organic parts either, they remained hybrids.

Amazing how the Reapers managed to deliver an impressive one-two punch to their own philosophy, by their own actions, with the Zha'till.

I was under the impression that the synthetic parts rebelled or something and turned them into synthetics eventually, and that only when organics were winning the war did the Reapers come and turn the tide to use the synthetics to help boost their power to steamroll the Protheans even more. But even if the Reapers helped the synthetic parts overthrow the organic parts, it could be that they didn't see the civilization as worth saving for some reason and just kicked it to the curb so to speak. Maybe they weren't "pure" organic, or maybe they were so synthetic that the Reapers considered them synthetics (tools) versus organics (harvest potential). 

I've never personally seen a contradiction with the Reapers using synthetics to help them cull organics. Synthetics to the Reapers are just tools like any other weapon or war asset (lol) in order to accomplish their goal. They would be stupid, imo, to not increase their power or make it easier for themselves, even if the gap is already far in their favor. I can see an ideological irony though. 

A very crude comparison would be stopping humans from advancing far enough to create machine guns, but once they create muskets and rifles, using the rifles against them. Might as well *shrug*. Of course this comparison is very basic and doesn't take into account the fact that synthetics can potentially think for themselves or that the Reapers try to harvest rather than kill. If the Reapers outright killed, then I think there would be even less of a chance. 

The fact that they didn't take the Citadel and take control of the relays has been pointed out as a contradiction to the "Reapers are efficient" idea. To me though this is just bad writing, because if they did that, then it'd be game over - an artistic license of sorts. 

Modifié par JShepppp, 23 avril 2012 - 01:34 .

[SirBob1613]

Can anyone shorten that i have hard time reading long things unless it interest me 100%

[Pelle6666]

Show, don't tell! and definitely don't explain afterwords.

Just saying...

[JShepppp]

SirBob1613 wrote...

Can anyone shorten that i have hard time reading long things unless it interest me 100%

Really sorry bro. Just read Part I about the Catalyst's logic. You can skip the rest, though what comes up in later parts MAY be what you may want to know or are thinking about. 

Here is a crude summary of the OP:

Part I = main part (read green for a super-short summary lol)
Parts II & III = additional information, debate, discussion, etc. for those interested, has input from people in this thread
Parts IV = for those even MORE interested, has stuff outside of this thread
Parts V & VI = "appendix" of sorts with content that was cut from the game

Modifié par JShepppp, 23 avril 2012 - 01:56 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Are those all the lines of the Catalyst? If so the Catalyst didn't mention destroying the mass relays...............

So... it appears that the rewritten script destroying the mass relays and ****ing the entire ME universe was to punish everyone for somebody publishing the leaked script on the web. Oh great joy.

[JShepppp]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Are those all the lines of the Catalyst? If so the Catalyst didn't mention destroying the mass relays...............

So... it appears that the rewritten script destroying the mass relays and ****ing the entire ME universe was to punish everyone for somebody publishing the leaked script on the web. Oh great joy.

Lol dunno actually, never thought of that. It'd be a shame if destroying the relays was an afterthought of sorts and not part of the "vision" back then. Maybe it was intended as a "surprise" of sorts. Who knows. 

[JShepppp]

Edit: I thought earlier that the Catalyst's admission that it "won't" change the cycle or activate the Crucible indicated it had some control over its functions. But the lines were more like "I can't, and I won't".

I take it now to mean more like "Even if I could activate the Crucible, I wouldn't" and think the Catalyst just can't activate it. Why it bring Shepard up to do it rather than let him die and let the Reapers destroy the Crucible is something I don't know though. Plot hole / immunity maybe.

[skiadopsendow]

 Love this thread, great job OP

[JShepppp]

skiadopsendow wrote...

 Love this thread, great job OP

Thanks. Posts like this always make me feel like the effort was worth something lol. 

[KevShep]

Ive said this alot but I think that it is worth noting....
You can hear shepard whispering inside the catalyst's voice, He/she is repeating everything the catalyst is saying. Its hard to hear at first but as the conversation goes on you can hear it more and more. You do however NEED headphones to hear it, the left ear piece is femshep and the right ear piece is malshep. Listen to them one ear piece at a time to hear it.

This means that the last 10 minutes of the game IS a dream(indoctrination). Also you can hear both of there voices like an eco-like-dream-kind-of-way from shepard and the catalyst. Also there is mention of whisperings from the reapers indoctrination process in the codex and in the dreams of shepard you can see (if you have dialogue selected on screen) you can hear your squadmates saying your name and it lables them as "whispers".

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The Catalyst is not right, you simply keep them under control... Synthetics are the real-world equivalent to Nuclear weapons... or owning a weapon in a house with kids.

[JShepppp]

KevShep wrote...

Ive said this alot but I think that it is worth noting....
You can hear shepard whispering inside the catalyst's voice, He/she is repeating everything the catalyst is saying. Its hard to hear at first but as the conversation goes on you can hear it more and more. You do however NEED headphones to hear it, the left ear piece is femshep and the right ear piece is malshep. Listen to them one ear piece at a time to hear it.

This means that the last 10 minutes of the game IS a dream(indoctrination). Also you can hear both of there voices like an eco-like-dream-kind-of-way from shepard and the catalyst. Also there is mention of whisperings from the reapers indoctrination process in the codex and in the dreams of shepard you can see (if you have dialogue selected on screen) you can hear your squadmates saying your name and it lables them as "whispers".

IT, imho, gives the devs too much credit for something that clearly would alienate all fans. I guessed that the catalyst's voice fem/male shep included (which I heard when I played; I play on a laptop so headphones lol) was more of a poetic thing rather than anything else. And the dreams makes sense because the people Shep's closest to are his squadmates, and the dreams are a manifestation of Shep's belief that he/she is unable to save everyone and may fail everyone with all the pressure on them. 

That's my opinion, at least. I respect yours. Even if someone didn't believe me on that latter statement, IT has enough of a following that in and of itself indicates its worth. 

[JShepppp]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The Catalyst is not right, you simply keep them under control... Synthetics are the real-world equivalent to Nuclear weapons... or owning a weapon in a house with kids.

Not really since the weapons cannot self-activate and self-evolve. A pistol cannot suddenly become a machine gun or evolve into a bomb and steadily evolve into more powerful bombs at a faster and faster rate to the point where humans cannot keep up with creating weapons of increasing levels of destruction. 

The point where we cannot catch up to it is the point where the singularity occurs and we are forever at the mercy of the "weapons".

As for the Catalyst being "not right", that is a very valid statement and idea in and of itself. 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

JShepppp wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The Catalyst is not right, you simply keep them under control... Synthetics are the real-world equivalent to Nuclear weapons... or owning a weapon in a house with kids.

Not really since the weapons cannot self-activate and self-evolve. A pistol cannot suddenly become a machine gun or evolve into a bomb and steadily evolve into more powerful bombs at a faster and faster rate to the point where humans cannot keep up with creating weapons of increasing levels of destruction. 

The point where we cannot catch up to it is the point where the singularity occurs and we are forever at the mercy of the "weapons".

As for the Catalyst being "not right", that is a very valid statement and idea in and of itself. 

Skynet syndrome, humans can make something that grows beyond containment, but the solution to that is... to not do it.

The kids with guns in their homes are what grows/evolves, while the gun remains as lethal as it ever was.  You just control it's use so that it doesn't go that far.

Singularity is not an absolute.  You can have fire on your stove without burning your house down.

[JShepppp]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The Catalyst is not right, you simply keep them under control... Synthetics are the real-world equivalent to Nuclear weapons... or owning a weapon in a house with kids.

Not really since the weapons cannot self-activate and self-evolve. A pistol cannot suddenly become a machine gun or evolve into a bomb and steadily evolve into more powerful bombs at a faster and faster rate to the point where humans cannot keep up with creating weapons of increasing levels of destruction. 

The point where we cannot catch up to it is the point where the singularity occurs and we are forever at the mercy of the "weapons".

As for the Catalyst being "not right", that is a very valid statement and idea in and of itself. 

Skynet syndrome, humans can make something that grows beyond containment, but the solution to that is... to not do it.

The kids with guns in their homes are what grows/evolves, while the gun remains as lethal as it ever was.  You just control it's use so that it doesn't go that far.

Singularity is not an absolute.  You can have fire on your stove without burning your house down.

Right. Either organics will never develop AIs, or even if they do, they'll never let the AIs get that advanced. Both valid points that undermine the singularity argument and completely undermine the Catalyst. 

From what we've seen in ME, though, civilizations do develop AIs. As for letting the AIs get so far advanced, we would assume civilizations won't because that's the smart thing to do. But we already took some risks with the Geth/Legion, EDI, etc. etc. It would just take one random AI to self-evolve so fast for the singularity to be reached. It seems the Catalyst is unwilling to give that chance. 

As for what happens after the singularity, there's no reason to assume things could go in either way. Hence the name singularity lol (I know others have pointed this out too). But as long as all outcomes are on the table, conflict will eventually occur. We cannot rule it out. And I guess the Catalyst thinks that as long as it's a viable enough possibility (or merely that it is a possibility since it has a near-infinite view of time), that's the only thing it's worried about. 

[Lyrebon]

tl;dr - seriously man, there's just too much there I'm not even going to consider reading; after looking at the comments it seems evident you're just trying to convince yourself that there isn't something abhorrently wrong about the ending.