1057 réponses à ce sujet

[NUM13ER]

I think the problem isn't so much we disagree with it's logic. We're not supposed to. The problem is it tries to present itself as a well intentioned extremist rather than an immoral monster. Imagine instead if it spitefully said it was doing pathetic organics a favour by uplifting them to perfection. Warped logic is nothing new to villains but the fact the Star Child isn't once called out his being the most evil thing that has ever existed is a glaring oversight.

Modifié par NUM13ER, 29 mars 2012 - 10:37 .

[MaverickPerry]

Enjoy. 

http://social.biowar...ndex/10740776/1

[Baronesa]

I don't even...

It is circular reasoning, it use an unfounded premise, that EVEN when proved wrong (the moment he qualify it as "ALWAYS rebel..." is the moment that only 1 instance of disagreement take the whole premise down) people try to use the cop out of "You don't know what will happen in the future"

That is the exact same argument given by the Dalatrass... Did you let the Genophage remain in place? condemended the Krogan to a slow genocide? Did you killed the Rachni queen?

On both cases you don't know if they eventually become violent and attack the galaxy again... they did so before.. right?

Why don't you also wipe out every human? At some point a megalomaniac racist fanatic MAY get to power and wage war against the other races... IT COULD HAPPEN... right?

Those are THE EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS.

[tjmax]

FoxShadowblade wrote...

He provides no proof, his logic slaps the entire series in the face, and he makes Shepard look like a complete tool. Oh, and his choices suck balls.

So I don't care if he could be right, his logic is wrong, he was wrong, and any alternate ending should write him straight out of the game and into HELL.

Does not matter if he is wrong or right, moral or immoral. The AI life form seen problems.

Problem 1: Synthetic life forms created by organics will rebel and kill their makers and all other orgnic life.
Answer: take control of synthetics to prevent it.

Problem 2: organics will create new synthetics that will kill their creators.
Answer: Remove all advanced organics to prevent problem 2 and 1. 


What changed:
Shepard proved organics and synthics can make peace with one another, lasting peace? who knows
The crucible was added to the AI's core allowing for more possabilities or new way of thinking.

[dreman9999]

Tietj wrote...

The Catalyst's argument only works if the storyteller throws in a bunch of details in the third act to support it. Yes, the VI on Thessia said that the cycle repeats, or some other nonsense that was only put in to support the catalyst's reasoning. That's lazy storytelling. And your argument number 4 makes zero sense to me, maybe I'm just tired. Anyway, my problems with the ending are only vaguely related to the catalyst. I hate the fact that they effectively destroy the Mass Effect universe and all effectively end with Shepard's death (and the Normandy bit and the Stargazer part, but that basically goes without saying at this point, as I have yet to read about even the staunchest defenders of the ending liking those parts).

I feel like the Mass Effect series, and Shepard in particular, were deliberately sabotaged by a company or a writer who was sick of them. The catalyst and his three phony solutions was simply a means to that end. Shepard's sacrifice means nothing to us because there was really no reason that he had to die to accomplish any of them other than plot contrivance.

Think of it this way...How is reaping Synthetics going to stop organics from making more syntheic?

[dreman9999]

Baronesa wrote...

I don't even...

It is circular reasoning, it use an unfounded premise, that EVEN when proved wrong (the moment he qualify it as "ALWAYS rebel..." is the moment that only 1 instance of disagreement take the whole premise down) people try to use the cop out of "You don't know what will happen in the future"

That is the exact same argument given by the Dalatrass... Did you let the Genophage remain in place? condemended the Krogan to a slow genocide? Did you killed the Rachni queen?

On both cases you don't know if they eventually become violent and attack the galaxy again... they did so before.. right?

Why don't you also wipe out every human? At some point a megalomaniac racist fanatic MAY get to power and wage war against the other races... IT COULD HAPPEN... right?

Those are THE EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS.

Your problem is that you confusing the conditions of rebel. It not say that synthetic will randomly get up and destory organic...It's saying a series of event will cause synthetics to rebel. Example:The geth rebeled because they were forced to in order to live.

[Dalako]

The child's logic is faulty because killing or ''ascending'' all organic life is one of the most insane methods to resolve the so called eternal ''synthetics vs. creators'' conflict. How about, you know, informing organics of the danger of synthetics? Maybe assassinate anyone who attempts to create AI intelligence? Both methods are easier than DESTROYING ALL LIFE IN THE GALAXY. 

This is why the Reapers are better when their reasons are mysterious or implied. I always thought Reapers just viewed themselves superior, the evolution of life - no need for some crappy, contradictory ''noble'' reason. 

Modifié par Dalako, 29 mars 2012 - 10:57 .

[Baronesa]

dreman9999 wrote...
Your problem is that you confusing the conditions of rebel. It not say
that synthetic will randomly get up and destory organic...It's saying a
series of event will cause synthetics to rebel. Example:The geth rebeled
because they were forced to in order to live.

And that same rebellion prove the Catalyst wrong. The argument is that synthetics will destroy ALL organic life. The Geth didn't pursue the Quarian, they even cleaned and repaired the damage done to the planet, preserved the natural life too! when we are in Rannoch we see  vegetal life and we see birds flying around.

The Geth never wanted to fight the Quarians either, they simply used self defense. If the Catalyst was right, then all lifeforms on Rannoch woulkd have been gone. ALL of them.

[Dire Wombat]

I'll say this for the Catalyst and the conflict it introduces:

It COULD have been excellent if it had been handled properly. The ideas involved are not inherently terrible, some of which the OP explained in their post.

However, as presented in the text, the Catalyst, its logic, and its narrative implications are pretty much BS. People are absolutely justified in hating it as much as they do... but it COULD have been something good.

[dreman9999]

tjmax wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...

He provides no proof, his logic slaps the entire series in the face, and he makes Shepard look like a complete tool. Oh, and his choices suck balls.

So I don't care if he could be right, his logic is wrong, he was wrong, and any alternate ending should write him straight out of the game and into HELL.

Does not matter if he is wrong or right, moral or immoral. The AI life form seen problems.

Problem 1: Synthetic life forms created by organics will rebel and kill their makers and all other orgnic life.
Answer: take control of synthetics to prevent it.

Problem 2: organics will create new synthetics that will kill their creators.
Answer: Remove all advanced organics to prevent problem 2 and 1. 


What changed:
Shepard proved organics and synthics can make peace with one another, lasting peace? who knows
The crucible was added to the AI's core allowing for more possabilities or new way of thinking.

The think with the geth/quarian argument is that a question if the peice can last. With Lgion we see that the geth withthe upgrade have nearly all the capabilitysof an organic, it meansthey are capable of good and evil disisions like an organic. On the quarian side we have people like Admeral Xen that can mess it up as well.
If you want to us the geth/quarian argument, you have to guarantee the peace will last.

[Baronesa]

dreman9999 wrote...

On the quarian side we have people like Admeral Xen that can mess it up as well.
If you want to us the geth/quarian argument, you have to guarantee the peace will last.

That is moving the goalpost... How can you guarantee that peace will last even among Turians themselves?

The whole history of organic life is filled with war among ourselves. Just think about Earth. Turians had their unification wars, and so on.


You can't guarantee lasting peace among 1 species of organics, why is that required for synthetics?

[Xandax]

JShepppp wrote...
<snip>
Second, the Reapers don't believe they're killing organics - they believe they're preserving them and making way for new life.
<snip>

Except - many people are outright killed and not 'harvested'.
Some are changed, engineered into other things to use as cannon-fodder for harvesting.
Reapers do belive the are killing organics, and they do it intentionally. Sure some might be harvested, but.....

They might themselves be a 'hybrid', however it doesn't change the fact that they're killing organics to prevent the organics from being killed.
Sure - trees and plants might be allowed to survive, but any intelligent life would ultimately be destroyed or - if wanting to claim harvesting - made uniform to prevent intelligent life from being destroyed. Circular at best.
The motivation would have been much better if it was meer self-presevation.

JShepppp wrote...
<snip>
2. In my playthrough, Joker/EDI hooked up and the Geth/Quarians found peace, therefore conflict isn't always the result! Several arguments can be made against this. First, giving two examples doesn't talk about the bigger, overall galactic picture (winning a battle doesn't mean the war is won, so to speak). Second, we haven't reached that technological singularity point yet by which creations outgrow organics - basically, when synthetics will normally come to dominate the galaxy. Third, evidence for the synthetic/organic conflict is there in the past - in the Protheans' cycle (Javik dialogue) and even in previous cycles (the Thessia VI says that the same conflicts always happen in each cycle). 
<snip>

It happened once so it will happen again argumentation.
Firstly - we have to trust the Reapers
a) that it has happened before in each cycle.
 that it will always happen in each new cycle.
c) that each time is the same conditions and outcome will happen.

Basically - your enemy that's killing millions tells you something, and you believe it outright.
Hint: Enemies often lie to attain a goal.

JShepppp wrote...

<snip>
3. If synthetics are the problem and the Catalyst is trying to protect organics, it should just kill Synthetics instead! A few things here. First, the Catalyst believes it's "harvesting/ascending" organics, not killing them. <snip>

Many aren't 'harvested' into 'reapers'.


Just to mention some.

The logic is only 'right' with a lot of caveat  and assumptions and speculations.

[dreman9999]

Dalako wrote...

The child's logic is faulty because killing or ''ascending'' all organic life is one of the most insane methods to resolve the so called eternal ''synthetics vs. creators'' conflict. How about, you know, informing organics of the danger of synthetics? Maybe assassinate anyone who attempts to create AI intelligence? Both methods are easier than DESTROYING ALL LIFE IN THE GALAXY. 

This is why the Reapers are better when their reasons are mysterious or implied. I always thought Reapers just viewed themselves superior, the evolution of life - no need for some crappy, contradictory ''noble'' reason. 

Before going with the statement of it being flawed...You really have to ask yourself was does living and alive mean ?
The concept of it can get warped based on morality.  With us we see being alive means a sense of  self idenity, ego, consusneses, self growth and so on. That why we see brain death as a form of true death. That brain dead person lost the foction of their mind, everything about them is gone while their body lives. To a machine it different. Think about it this way,if your computers hard drive fails, do you morn it and bury it, or do you replace the broken hard drive?
That how machines think. To a machine a brain dead person is not dead. They would think to just replace th nonfuctional parts and the person is fine.

[dreman9999]

Baronesa wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Your problem is that you confusing the conditions of rebel. It not say
that synthetic will randomly get up and destory organic...It's saying a
series of event will cause synthetics to rebel. Example:The geth rebeled
because they were forced to in order to live.

And that same rebellion prove the Catalyst wrong. The argument is that synthetics will destroy ALL organic life. The Geth didn't pursue the Quarian, they even cleaned and repaired the damage done to the planet, preserved the natural life too! when we are in Rannoch we see  vegetal life and we see birds flying around.

The Geth never wanted to fight the Quarians either, they simply used self defense. If the Catalyst was right, then all lifeforms on Rannoch woulkd have been gone. ALL of them.

It argument is iforganics are not contol all synthetic life will kill of all organics.Withthe geth and quarian you still too focus in the now...My argument is about the later. What guarantee is there that the both groups will stay peiceful.
And the Geth defening themselves is still rebeling. The very idea of rebeling isto defend the intrest of the group that is treated unfairly.

[dreman9999]

Baronesa wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

On the quarian side we have people like Admeral Xen that can mess it up as well.
If you want to us the geth/quarian argument, you have to guarantee the peace will last.

That is moving the goalpost... How can you guarantee that peace will last even among Turians themselves?

The whole history of organic life is filled with war among ourselves. Just think about Earth. Turians had their unification wars, and so on.


You can't guarantee lasting peace among 1 species of organics, why is that required for synthetics?

This is a case of doulbe effect and  results oer the means. They do kill many organics while trying to perserve their races but can be seen as something that can't be helped. In the end they perserve way more then they destroy.

[Flextt]

I don't think you can redeem the Catalyst through cut content. It just worsens current impressions. If you perceive it as crucial to understanding him and the developers cut it out, they obviously did not. Since they obviously did not, it might as well be wrong. In themselves, your points are valid though.

It is a matter of how you look at it ultimately. But we all seem to agree, that the lack of direction is highly irritating. The consequence is, that we reach an "analytical singularity", which ends with 1000 questions and pure conjecture, but no indications what could have been implied.

Modifié par Flextt, 29 mars 2012 - 11:15 .

[Xandurpein]

dreman9999 wrote...

Dalako wrote...

The child's logic is faulty because killing or ''ascending'' all organic life is one of the most insane methods to resolve the so called eternal ''synthetics vs. creators'' conflict. How about, you know, informing organics of the danger of synthetics? Maybe assassinate anyone who attempts to create AI intelligence? Both methods are easier than DESTROYING ALL LIFE IN THE GALAXY. 

This is why the Reapers are better when their reasons are mysterious or implied. I always thought Reapers just viewed themselves superior, the evolution of life - no need for some crappy, contradictory ''noble'' reason. 

Before going with the statement of it being flawed...You really have to ask yourself was does living and alive mean ?
The concept of it can get warped based on morality.  With us we see being alive means a sense of  self idenity, ego, consusneses, self growth and so on. That why we see brain death as a form of true death. That brain dead person lost the foction of their mind, everything about them is gone while their body lives. To a machine it different. Think about it this way,if your computers hard drive fails, do you morn it and bury it, or do you replace the broken hard drive?
That how machines think. To a machine a brain dead person is not dead. They would think to just replace th nonfuctional parts and the person is fine.

A machine doesn't think, so speaking with absolute authority about how a machine would think is not wise. As presented in the game hardware has nothing to do with Geth sense of self or identity at all. A mobile platform is like a car to them. You have to compare the Geth software to organic life, and I personally believe that the Geth have a sense of identity as software that can be lost. Legion died and was lost, even if parts of his software was used to upgrade other Geth.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 29 mars 2012 - 11:15 .

[tjmax]

dreman9999 wrote...

tjmax wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...

He provides no proof, his logic slaps the entire series in the face, and he makes Shepard look like a complete tool. Oh, and his choices suck balls.

So I don't care if he could be right, his logic is wrong, he was wrong, and any alternate ending should write him straight out of the game and into HELL.

Does not matter if he is wrong or right, moral or immoral. The AI life form seen problems.

Problem 1: Synthetic life forms created by organics will rebel and kill their makers and all other orgnic life.
Answer: take control of synthetics to prevent it.

Problem 2: organics will create new synthetics that will kill their creators.
Answer: Remove all advanced organics to prevent problem 2 and 1. 


What changed:
Shepard proved organics and synthics can make peace with one another, lasting peace? who knows
The crucible was added to the AI's core allowing for more possabilities or new way of thinking.

The think with the geth/quarian argument is that a question if the peice can last. With Lgion we see that the geth withthe upgrade have nearly all the capabilitysof an organic, it meansthey are capable of good and evil disisions like an organic. On the quarian side we have people like Admeral Xen that can mess it up as well.
If you want to us the geth/quarian argument, you have to guarantee the peace will last.

war vs peace was never really in the equasion. It was simply protecting against the destruction off all organic life forms by the synthetics.

 Everything changed by the advancing of synthetic life to becoming a living being. instillment of the morals and value of life, all life, Installing a soul of sorts, rather then just the self preservation by eliminating all threats of the old machines. Thats what opened up the some of new possabilities.

[dreman9999]

Baronesa wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

On the quarian side we have people like Admeral Xen that can mess it up as well.
If you want to us the geth/quarian argument, you have to guarantee the peace will last.

That is moving the goalpost... How can you guarantee that peace will last even among Turians themselves?

The whole history of organic life is filled with war among ourselves. Just think about Earth. Turians had their unification wars, and so on.


You can't guarantee lasting peace among 1 species of organics, why is that required for synthetics?

How is that moving the goal post? It's a major issue withyou argument. The reaper argument is the synthetic will rebel as an eventuallity. That event will cause, infuence or force them to rebel. And your using an argument that basicly saying"Their not doing it now." The reapers viewon is is base on years, decades, centries....You are just looking at ithe right now. Their really isn't a guarantee the peace will last.
Their post is that if synthetic go to war with organics, they will win and totaly kill of organics. I we can garantee that the peace will last, we can't really find fault in the way the reapers think.

[dreman9999]

tjmax wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

tjmax wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...

He provides no proof, his logic slaps the entire series in the face, and he makes Shepard look like a complete tool. Oh, and his choices suck balls.

So I don't care if he could be right, his logic is wrong, he was wrong, and any alternate ending should write him straight out of the game and into HELL.

Does not matter if he is wrong or right, moral or immoral. The AI life form seen problems.

Problem 1: Synthetic life forms created by organics will rebel and kill their makers and all other orgnic life.
Answer: take control of synthetics to prevent it.

Problem 2: organics will create new synthetics that will kill their creators.
Answer: Remove all advanced organics to prevent problem 2 and 1. 


What changed:
Shepard proved organics and synthics can make peace with one another, lasting peace? who knows
The crucible was added to the AI's core allowing for more possabilities or new way of thinking.

The think with the geth/quarian argument is that a question if the peice can last. With Lgion we see that the geth withthe upgrade have nearly all the capabilitysof an organic, it meansthey are capable of good and evil disisions like an organic. On the quarian side we have people like Admeral Xen that can mess it up as well.
If you want to us the geth/quarian argument, you have to guarantee the peace will last.

war vs peace was never really in the equasion. It was simply protecting against the destruction off all organic life forms by the synthetics.

 Everything changed by the advancing of synthetic life to becoming a living being. instillment of the morals and value of life, all life, Installing a soul of sorts, rather then just the self preservation by eliminating all threats of the old machines. Thats what opened up the some of new possabilities.

No, it got worse by adding moral value. War is somthing that organic created based on the very samemoral value given to machines. If moral value was what stop war from happening, then we would never have wars. This is the same world that thinksit a moral value to strap a bomb to themselve and blow a group of people up because the have a diffent relgion. This is the same world that a  stronger larger county can invade  a smaller one, kill off thousands of people, because they beleif the small county need a change in it social nature. This is the same moral value that cause a large group of peopleto commit genoside on a smaller group of people for being different.
Do you really think moral value ill garantee that synthetic will notgo towar with organic when itcauseso much war with us?

Modifié par dreman9999, 29 mars 2012 - 11:34 .

[dreman9999]

Xandurpein wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dalako wrote...

The child's logic is faulty because killing or ''ascending'' all organic life is one of the most insane methods to resolve the so called eternal ''synthetics vs. creators'' conflict. How about, you know, informing organics of the danger of synthetics? Maybe assassinate anyone who attempts to create AI intelligence? Both methods are easier than DESTROYING ALL LIFE IN THE GALAXY. 

This is why the Reapers are better when their reasons are mysterious or implied. I always thought Reapers just viewed themselves superior, the evolution of life - no need for some crappy, contradictory ''noble'' reason. 

Before going with the statement of it being flawed...You really have to ask yourself was does living and alive mean ?
The concept of it can get warped based on morality.  With us we see being alive means a sense of  self idenity, ego, consusneses, self growth and so on. That why we see brain death as a form of true death. That brain dead person lost the foction of their mind, everything about them is gone while their body lives. To a machine it different. Think about it this way,if your computers hard drive fails, do you morn it and bury it, or do you replace the broken hard drive?
That how machines think. To a machine a brain dead person is not dead. They would think to just replace th nonfuctional parts and the person is fine.

A machine doesn't think, so speaking with absolute authority about how a machine would think is not wise. As presented in the game hardware has nothing to do with Geth sense of self or identity at all. A mobile platform is like a car to them. You have to compare the Geth software to organic life, and I personally believe that the Geth have a sense of identity as software that can be lost. Legion died and was lost, even if parts of his software was used to upgrade other Geth.

Cleary AI are capable of thinking. An AI doesn't think like an organic from creation, it has to learn how to think like an organic. Cause in point EDI....AI'S think like machines.
And you can't compear Geth to organics....
 

[Xandurpein]

dreman9999 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

On the quarian side we have people like Admeral Xen that can mess it up as well.
If you want to us the geth/quarian argument, you have to guarantee the peace will last.

That is moving the goalpost... How can you guarantee that peace will last even among Turians themselves?

The whole history of organic life is filled with war among ourselves. Just think about Earth. Turians had their unification wars, and so on.


You can't guarantee lasting peace among 1 species of organics, why is that required for synthetics?

How is that moving the goal post? It's a major issue withyou argument. The reaper argument is the synthetic will rebel as an eventuallity. That event will cause, infuence or force them to rebel. And your using an argument that basicly saying"Their not doing it now." The reapers viewon is is base on years, decades, centries....You are just looking at ithe right now. Their really isn't a guarantee the peace will last.
Their post is that if synthetic go to war with organics, they will win and totaly kill of organics. I we can garantee that the peace will last, we can't really find fault in the way the reapers think.

Ultimately it depends on whether you accept the Reapers arbitrary premises or not. I don't. Although if the Catalyst logic is so impeccable it ceretainly begs the question of why it's so quick to abandon it, once Shepard finds the elevator in favor of a new solution...

[dreman9999]

Xandurpein wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

On the quarian side we have people like Admeral Xen that can mess it up as well.
If you want to us the geth/quarian argument, you have to guarantee the peace will last.

That is moving the goalpost... How can you guarantee that peace will last even among Turians themselves?

The whole history of organic life is filled with war among ourselves. Just think about Earth. Turians had their unification wars, and so on.


You can't guarantee lasting peace among 1 species of organics, why is that required for synthetics?

How is that moving the goal post? It's a major issue withyou argument. The reaper argument is the synthetic will rebel as an eventuallity. That event will cause, infuence or force them to rebel. And your using an argument that basicly saying"Their not doing it now." The reapers viewon is is base on years, decades, centries....You are just looking at ithe right now. Their really isn't a guarantee the peace will last.
Their post is that if synthetic go to war with organics, they will win and totaly kill of organics. I we can garantee that the peace will last, we can't really find fault in the way the reapers think.

Ultimately it depends on whether you accept the Reapers arbitrary premises or not. I don't. Although if the Catalyst logic is so impeccable it ceretainly begs the question of why it's so quick to abandon it, once Shepard finds the elevator in favor of a new solution...

Remeber these are time less machine that have watches organic for timeless eons. They clearly see a pattern. it's not an assumption vs an assumtion...It's what they've seen vs our assumption.

[FyreSyder]

So, basically, whatever created the Catalyst and Reapers was INSANE....

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Nice read, OP. A few things to consider:

(2) It may be possible to construct a working problem out of this organic/synthetic scenario, but it needs a lot of expostion. The simple claim doesn't work. There is too much counterevidence.

Which means, at the very least, we must be able to challenge the starchild. If nothing else is changed in the ending, this is an absolute must.

Not just challenge creature's logic but reject his solutions. I have no desire to be a good dog and rolling over to let the reapers scratch my belly and getting a coloured doggy treat for being such an obedient pup.

Modifié par wright1978, 29 mars 2012 - 11:34 .