1057 réponses à ce sujet

[Jackums]

@The Angry One: This is the universe of the writers. Technological singularity can be and will be whatever they want it to be and it doesn't have to comply to your own idea of what's logical. That's the simple fact of it. The TS is presented, it's known, and it's real. There's no point in continuing this further if your only way around the arguments being brought up is to plead ignorance. I thoroughly enjoyed our discussion. Have a nice day.

Modifié par JackumsD, 29 mai 2012 - 01:25 .

[EricHVela]

What was not in the game is nothing more than head-canon at this point.

To some, the logic is correct with their version of filling in plot holes. To some, the logic is highly flawed with their version of filling in plot holes.

There is no solid correct answer at this time.

[frylock23]

Cypher_CS wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

Have you actually read beyond the TLDR version?

Yes, it is exactly about Psychopathy.
In the narrowest possible definition of Psychopathy. In the definition that a Psychopath is someone that doesn't know wrong from right (Moral argument). AIs don't have such a moral, culture based destiction. They have calculations. And the invariability of calculations will lead to a logical assumption that the Catalyst achieves.

That any living being actually thinks the Catalyst's assumptions are logical genuinely frightens me.
You you also think conflict between different human races is inevitable? Because that's essentially what the Catalyst is saying. Those who are different will never get along.

No, that's not what the Catalyst is saying.
First of all, yeah, conflict between different human races or nations is inevitable. The only solution is... dare I say, hybridization. And we are well on our way there (I'm completely white, Russian/Polish origins, my wife is half Yemanese and half Iraqi-Kurd - our kids may still show signs of differences, but with globalization such differences will erode over the next generations).
Secondly, the Catalyst is saying things more along the lines of Humans wiping out... cockroaches, should the cockroaches decided to take up arms against us.

Hybridization changes nothing. I'm sorry to say.

You can be whatever superficial race you want, but your culture is what you were raised to be. What culture are your children? I have news for you, unless you raised them Islamic, it won't matter to Muslim extremists that they are of Yemeni/Iraqi-Kurd descent.

Similarly, my husband is 1/8th Native American. The census bureau calls ours a mixed marriage, but he was an adopted child raised by completely white folks. He neither knows his Native American heritage nor feels any connection to it. The blood matters not at all. But hey, he's a hybrid and so's our son! Not that it matters one tiny bit because our culture is 100% American.

My point? Only that blood and superficial difference matters not at all. It's the culture that really counts.

The only way the Catalyst can really make everything all right is to make everyone the same in culture which means to wipe out all difference.

Modifié par frylock23, 29 mai 2012 - 01:25 .

[The Angry One]

JackumsD wrote...

@The Angry One: This is the universe of the writers. Technological singularity can be and will be whatever they want it to be and it doesn't have to comply to your own idea of what's logical. That's the simple fact of it. The TS is presented, it's known, and it's real.

If the writers are ignorant of the concepts they try to shoe horn in at the last minute then I will say so.
Don't backpeddle and hide behind author intent because you lost the argument.

There's no point in continuing this further if your only way around the arguments being brought up is to plead ignorance.

I thoroughly enjoyed our discussion. Have a nice day.

Pleading ignorance!? I am pointing out YOUR ignorance.
I do not mind if you disagree with me, but if you start lying to prop up your non-existent point you can kindly get lost.

[Cypher_CS]

The Angry One wrote...

Indeed, despite all the crimes commited on the Geth by the Quarians, the Geth constantly desire peace and co-existence with the Quarians, demonstrating that the Geth do not have interest in concepts of revenge.

Emotion and ego has nothing to do with it.
Hell, if you put emotion into the equation, you further strengthen the point that AI, having no emotion, will not "feel for" organics or show mercy.

Indeed, despite all the cimes commited on the Geth by the Quarians (here you go again, thinking the Geth/Quarian conflict proves anything), the Geth constantly desire peace and co existence - eventually, they will learn. Wouldn't they?
Eventually, step forward in their intelligence, they would realize that the other side does NOT want that peace. Wouldn't they?
Of course, assuming that is inded the case, about the other side, I mean.

[The Angry One]

frylock23 wrote...

The only way the Catalyst can really make everything all right is to make everyone the same in culture which means to wipe out all difference.

Which would be quite an achievement considering the Geth don't think like organics at all, and this is a point we're beaten over the head with in all 3 games.
Even if you assume that the Reaper upgrade gave Geth more organic-like minds... well, that's due to the Reaper upgrade, not synthesis.

.... on the other hand, if synthesis ALTERS MINDS then you've just added brainwashing to your galaxy wide genetic violation. Charming.

[The Angry One]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Emotion and ego has nothing to do with it.
Hell, if you put emotion into the equation, you further strengthen the point that AI, having no emotion, will not "feel for" organics or show mercy.

This has nothing to do with mercy. There is no logical reason to exterminate all organic life.
Even if you exterminate the organics who are belligerent, why all organics everywhere? What is the point?
To eliminate future threats? But if you're a TS, they'll never be a threat to you.

Indeed, despite all the cimes commited on the Geth by the Quarians (here you go again, thinking the Geth/Quarian conflict proves anything), the Geth constantly desire peace and co existence - eventually, they will learn. Wouldn't they?

Just because you don't like that it proves something doesn't mean it doesn't, sorry.

Eventually, step forward in their intelligence, they would realize that the other side does NOT want that peace. Wouldn't they?
Of course, assuming that is inded the case, about the other side, I mean.

Did you even play the games? They KNOW the Quarians don't want peace. They KNOW there's no chance of it.
We know this because Legion flat out says so in ME2. This doesn't stop them from wanting co-existence with their creators and more importantly doesn't stop them from wanting to learn and co-exist with other organics.

[frylock23]

The Angry One wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

The only way the Catalyst can really make everything all right is to make everyone the same in culture which means to wipe out all difference.

Which would be quite an achievement considering the Geth don't think like organics at all, and this is a point we're beaten over the head with in all 3 games.
Even if you assume that the Reaper upgrade gave Geth more organic-like minds... well, that's due to the Reaper upgrade, not synthesis.

.... on the other hand, if synthesis ALTERS MINDS then you've just added brainwashing to your galaxy wide genetic violation. Charming.

IMO, that's the only way that synthesis works as advertised.

[Cypher_CS]

The Angry One wrote...

But they would still be thinking beings.

So?

What do you mean to say with that?
That there's some... emotional responsibility to keep thinking beings alive?

And, AGAIN... Jeez, I just love it how you either circle back to earlier arguments or just try to divide and conquer the arguments by answering each point, without seeing the bigger picture.

The point is that a post TS AI would be sooooooooooooooooooo far beyond the human thought that it would no longer consider it thinking.

We consider cockroaches, for example, to be instinct driven only. No real thought. Right?
Why? Because to our perspective they repeat the same actions, driven by basic needs. They don't create, they don't imagine, they don't... whatever. Heh, yet they still manage to overcome Raid

Now, try, for a moment, the impossible and think beyond your perception of time.
We observe cockroaches in our view of linear time. We see them doing their things in short periods of times, repeating themselves.

Now, zoom out. Zoom out to a macro level of time.
Time, in the perspective of AI is not something felt like we do. It's an abstract concept. An artificial concept. It has no real meaning. For AI a minute is a second is a 
Milenia.
What pattern would an AI, million years from now, see if all it sees is these so called thinking meat bags keep attacking and getting beat down?

I suggest that It would consider this not thiking, but instinctive behavior.

The Angry One wrote... 
I kill the ones attacking me. Then I take away their nukes and control them seeing as they're unruly.
Exterminating them would be an illogical act of retribution.

So... subjugation would be more logical?

The Angry One wrote... 

It's "not an example" because you don't want it to be. The fact is, the Salarians were far above the Krogan technologically and had the power to alter the Krogan any way they wished with the genophage. They could've made it 100% fatal. They could've just released a plague. The Salarians had all the power in this, to deal with a genuine galactic threat.

No, it's not an example just like you can't use the difference between 12 and 7 to describe the difference between 950,000,000,000 and 12.

[Jackums]

The Angry One wrote...

If the writers are ignorant of the concepts they try to shoe horn in at the last minute then I will say so.

Your opinion on what the writers did is irrelevant because it's their story and their universe. And they merely took on the concept of technological singularity and changed it to fit their story's world. It's science fiction, not a documentary. They can warp and distort it as much as they please and you cannot argue against it with real world logic because, again, it's their world and their story and it's fiction. Real world logic is irrelevat unless and until they apply it themselves.

[Cypher_CS]

The Angry One wrote...

Indeed, despite all the cimes commited on the Geth by the Quarians (here you go again, thinking the Geth/Quarian conflict proves anything), the Geth constantly desire peace and co existence - eventually, they will learn. Wouldn't they?

Just because you don't like that it proves something doesn't mean it doesn't, sorry.

Okay, this is where you further prove your complete lack of desire to understand something.

If you can't even grant the basic understand what Always means and doesn't mean, then there's no point in debating or arguing with you. Sorry.

[Ieldra]

The Angry One wrote...
There is absolutely ZERO basis for assuming that a TS will lead to extermination. None.

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia....xistential_risk

[The Angry One]

Cypher_CS wrote...
So?

What do you mean to say with that?
That there's some... emotional responsibility to keep thinking beings alive?

That exterminating thinking beings - any being actually - would be a malicious, illogical act.

And, AGAIN... Jeez, I just love it how you either circle back to earlier arguments or just try to divide and conquer the arguments by answering each point, without seeing the bigger picture.

You mean like you're doing, right now, to attempt to distract from the actual argument by nitpicking something that you yourself are doing over and over?

The point is that a post TS AI would be sooooooooooooooooooo far beyond the human thought that it would no longer consider it thinking.

Prove this baseless assumption.

We consider cockroaches, for example, to be instinct driven only. No real thought. Right?
Why? Because to our perspective they repeat the same actions, driven by basic needs. They don't create, they don't imagine, they don't... whatever. Heh, yet they still manage to overcome Raid

Because they are provably not sapient. They do not have technology. They do not communicate.

Now, try, for a moment, the impossible and think beyond your perception of time.
We observe cockroaches in our view of linear time. We see them doing their things in short periods of times, repeating themselves.

Now, zoom out. Zoom out to a macro level of time.
Time, in the perspective of AI is not something felt like we do. It's an abstract concept. An artificial concept. It has no real meaning. For AI a minute is a second is a 
Milenia.
What pattern would an AI, million years from now, see if all it sees is these so called thinking meat bags keep attacking and getting beat down?

I suggest that It would consider this not thiking, but instinctive behavior.

Until it, you know, talks with us.

So... subjugation would be more logical?

More than extermination? Of course it is.
Of course, simply leaving organics alone would be more likely.

No, it's not an example just like you can't use the difference between 12 and 7 to describe the difference between 950,000,000,000 and 12.

Except, the scale is irrelevant. I'm talking about the concept. One culture completely overwhelming another in technology and thought capacity.

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
There is absolutely ZERO basis for assuming that a TS will lead to extermination. None.

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia....xistential_risk

Sure. AIs will use organic life to construct things rather than EVERYTHING ELSE AVAILABLE IN THE UNIVERSE.
This kind of paranoid rambling is why the concept of TS has been so abused in sci-fi.

Cypher_CS wrote...

Okay, this is where you further prove your complete lack of desire to understand something.

If
you can't even grant the basic understand what Always means and doesn't
mean, then there's no point in debating or arguing with you. Sorry.

You know what? This is why I'm close to giving up on BioWare. Because now they've become a developer solely appealing to people like you.
You refuse to accept examples because they hurt your argument, and you therefore evade it entirely and resort to veiled insults and changing the subject.

I will put this very simply. Either counter my assertions, or shut up. If you continue to dishonestly evade in this manner I will consider it a concession.

Modifié par The Angry One, 29 mai 2012 - 01:45 .

[The Angry One]

JackumsD wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

If the writers are ignorant of the concepts they try to shoe horn in at the last minute then I will say so.

Your opinion on what the writers did is irrelevant because it's their story and their universe. And they merely took on the concept of technological singularity and changed it to fit their story's world. It's science fiction, not a documentary. They can warp and distort it as much as they please and you cannot argue against it with real world logic because, again, it's their world and their story and it's fiction. Real world logic is irrelevat unless and until they apply it themselves.

Your appeal to author intent falls flat on it's face when it counters the logic of their own world.

[Jackums]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
There is absolutely ZERO basis for assuming that a TS will lead to extermination. None.

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia....xistential_risk

Sure. AIs will use organic life to construct things rather than EVERYTHING ELSE AVAILABLE IN THE UNIVERSE.
This kind of paranoid rambling is why the concept of TS has been so abused in sci-fi.

And this is the ignorance I was speaking of. You refuse to even acknowledge anything that goes against what you're saying.

I believe we can agree that even using actual logic here is futile given your attitude.

[Ieldra]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
The basics that I've been taught by strangely, a physics qualified chemistry tutor more concerned with quantum mechanics, the technological singularity, and whether fusion is within our immediate future instead of the subject he should have been teaching, lead me to question exactly why it applies as an explanation of the dilemma the serpent proposes. It has to happen to base a conclusion on. Once it happens, the Catalyst says eradication is inevitable. So, it can't have happened yet, or the synthetics can be defeated, neither of which exactly support the point. Also, no singularity will ever be the same, which throws more ambiguity over the 'certainty' of the serpent's point.

I've proposed a scenario that circumvents this problem:

(1) The Catalyst was built by a civilization as it experienced the singularity. It was built after the singularity, but before this civilization and the post-singularity synthetics destroyed each other.
(2) The Catalyst is not a seed AI, i.e. it was built as it is and can't start a singularity on its own.

That means that Catalyst can know the effects of one singularity by observation. Further predictions can be made through simulations.

[Cypher_CS]

Of course scale matters!
It's all about scale.
It's all about math and physics.

cockroaches don't communicate between themselves? Of course they do. Chemically, with pheromones. They do. Is this a primitive form of communication in our view? Hell yeah.

Here's where scale comes into view - for the "950,000,000,000" organism, communications between "12" organisms would be as primitive.

[The Angry One]

JackumsD wrote...

And this is the ignorance I was speaking of. You refuse to even acknowledge anything that goes against what you're saying.

I believe we can agree that even using actual logic here is futile given your attitude.

Yes, it goes against what I'm saying.
It's also paranoid assumption backed up by nothing.

[Jackums]

The Angry One wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

And this is the ignorance I was speaking of. You refuse to even acknowledge anything that goes against what you're saying.

I believe we can agree that even using actual logic here is futile given your attitude.

Yes, it goes against what I'm saying.
It's also paranoid assumption backed up by nothing.

But of course. Everything is baseless when it goes against your argument.

[frylock23]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
The basics that I've been taught by strangely, a physics qualified chemistry tutor more concerned with quantum mechanics, the technological singularity, and whether fusion is within our immediate future instead of the subject he should have been teaching, lead me to question exactly why it applies as an explanation of the dilemma the serpent proposes. It has to happen to base a conclusion on. Once it happens, the Catalyst says eradication is inevitable. So, it can't have happened yet, or the synthetics can be defeated, neither of which exactly support the point. Also, no singularity will ever be the same, which throws more ambiguity over the 'certainty' of the serpent's point.

I've proposed a scenario that circumvents this problem:

(1) The Catalyst was built by a civilization as it experienced the singularity. It was built after the singularity, but before this civilization and the post-singularity synthetics destroyed each other.
(2) The Catalyst is not a seed AI, i.e. it was built as it is and can't start a singularity on its own.

That means that Catalyst can know the effects of one singularity by observation. Further predictions can be made through simulations.

Or, the Catalyst IS a singularity. It just hasn't gotten around to wiping out all organic life quite yet. However, if you pick synthesis, that is in fact what happens because life ceases to be organic.

[The Angry One]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Of course scale matters!
It's all about scale.
It's all about math and physics.

It's also about relative scale. To the Salarians, the Krogans can be seen as little more than primitive animals who they uplifted in the first place.

cockroaches don't communicate between themselves? Of course they do. Chemically, with pheromones. They do. Is this a primitive form of communication in our view? Hell yeah.

Can they communicate with us? No.
And if you even try to imply that a vast machine intelligence that dominates the galaxy can't understand radio transmissions or the like and source them to an intelligently constructed artificial device, allow me to laugh right now and save you the trouble: Ha ha ha.

Here's where scale comes into view - for the "950,000,000,000" organism, communications between "12" organisms would be as primitive.

Show me a cockroach that's built a television set, or a car, or, you know, anything.

JackumsD wrote...

But of course. Everything is baseless when it goes against your argument.

No, it's baseless because it's a complete assumption.
Again, why would a vast TS AI intelligence look to organics for resources over billions upon billions of asteroids, stars and planets?
Why would you stripmine, say, Earth, when all other planets in the Sol system are available? Even if you did also take Earth just because, why would you do it to every life sustaining planet in the galaxy, bar none?

Modifié par The Angry One, 29 mai 2012 - 01:56 .

[Ieldra]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
There is absolutely ZERO basis for assuming that a TS will lead to extermination. None.

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia....xistential_risk

Sure. AIs will use organic life to construct things rather than EVERYTHING ELSE AVAILABLE IN THE UNIVERSE.
This kind of paranoid rambling is why the concept of TS has been so abused in sci-fi.

This premise is that they will use everything. They won't target organic life specifically, but they will also make no effort to avoid it. What about "They will not care" didn't you understand? Or is the possiblity that someone actually does not care one whit about organic life so incomprehensible to you? If it is, then you're measuring the universe by human standards.

I will put this very simply. Either counter my assertions, or shut up. If you continue to dishonestly evade in this manner I will consider it a concession.

It is not for you to say when another has conceded.

[ArcanistLibram]

The Geth did not rebel against their creators. Ergo, the Catalyst is objectively and undeniably wrong.

[Cypher_CS]

No, I'm not suggesting they can't read radio waves or the likes, I'm suggesting they won't be interested.