1057 réponses à ce sujet

[Cypher_CS]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

The Geth did not rebel against their creators. Ergo, the Catalyst is objectively and undeniably wrong.

Yeah, go take a course in logic and basic reading or listening comprehension and then come back, pleaes.

[frylock23]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Of course scale matters!
It's all about scale.
It's all about math and physics.

cockroaches don't communicate between themselves? Of course they do. Chemically, with pheromones. They do. Is this a primitive form of communication in our view? Hell yeah.

Here's where scale comes into view - for the "950,000,000,000" organism, communications between "12" organisms would be as primitive.

You are also assuming that at a scale like that any TS would care enough to bother with wiping out all organic life. It would be rather like humanity suddenly going on a rip to try to wipe out all cockroaches or ants or bacteria. Yes, we do go after cockroaches and ants, but only when they get in our way. The ones who stay in their own environments and out of our houses largely live unmolested. We simply don't care because they don't matter. And even when cockroaches and ants move in uninvited, we sometimes can't get rid of them.

Just because something is advanced far beyond something else is no guarantee that it will be able to utterly wipe it out or even care enough to try.

[Cypher_CS]

With our technology today, can we not translate cockroach pheromones? Or, rather, catalogue them based on behavior?
Sure we can.

What have we chosen to do?
We're only interested in removing their presence.

Sure, it's much more complex in the case of the TS and humans.
But the basic idea is there.

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

This premise is that they will use everything. They won't target organic life specifically, but they will also make no effort to avoid it. What about "They will not care" didn't you understand? Or is the possiblity that someone actually does not care one whit about organic life so incomprehensible to you? If it is, then you're measuring the universe by human standards.

If they've gotten to the point where they've used every other available resource... what the hell do they need organics for? Is this the Technological Singularity or the Technological Glutton?

Also, no, I'm measuring it by logical standards. There is no logic in exterminating life for this purpose.

It is not for you to say when another has conceded.

It's not for another to say what I do or don't understand, either. If they're going to be dishonest in debating then I will assume they have no argument.

[Cypher_CS]

frylock23 wrote...

....

Already been answered in the OP.

[The Angry One]

Cypher_CS wrote...

With our technology today, can we not translate cockroach pheromones? Or, rather, catalogue them based on behavior?
Sure we can.

What have we chosen to do?
We're only interested in removing their presence.

Sure, it's much more complex in the case of the TS and humans.
But the basic idea is there.

So the only reason we can't communicate with and come to an understanding with cockroaches is because we don't want to. It wouldn't at all be a scientific breakthrough involving massive amounts of fame and money for the person who discovered a way to talk with a non-human species.

We're done here.

[cerberus1701]

Cypher_CS wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

The Geth did not rebel against their creators. Ergo, the Catalyst is objectively and undeniably wrong.

Yeah, go take a course in logic and basic reading or listening comprehension and then come back, pleaes.

They "rebelled" AFTER the Quarians started killing them for daring to ask what they were.

The Quarians started it. Twice.

[The Angry One]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

The Geth did not rebel against their creators. Ergo, the Catalyst is objectively and undeniably wrong.

Yeah, go take a course in logic and basic reading or listening comprehension and then come back, pleaes.

They "rebelled" AFTER the Quarians started killing them for daring to ask what they were.

The Quarians started it. Twice.

Don't bother, he'll just retort with the technicality that fighting against your rulers even if they're trying to kill you is still "rebellion", even though that's not the implied meaning that the Catalyst uses.

Of course the Catalyst, like all psychopathic dictators, relies on technicalities for it's broken logic, and so do it's supporters.

[Cypher_CS]

Again...

NOT

SEEING

The WHOLE DAMN PICTURE

It's not one thing.
We can't talk to cockroaches. They don't have speech. There's nothing to be famous about.
We can understand how they behave and what signals they send. But do we care? Do we want to know? No. Cause beyond being pests and spreading disease, they don't do much. At all.

It's the SCALE, the one I mentioned before, that would make such an intelligence not care either.
It would "care" for one thing only - not to get diseases spread in it's system (which would pretty much be the entire cosmic engine, someday).
In the case of cockroaches, such diseases are organic, chemical, harmful to humans.
In the case of this post TS AI, it's Nukes and physical destruction and scorched earths.

Again, that's the fear.

[ArcanistLibram]

Cypher_CS wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

The Geth did not rebel against their creators. Ergo, the Catalyst is objectively and undeniably wrong.

Yeah, go take a course in logic and basic reading or listening comprehension and then come back, pleaes.

The Catalyst says that the created will always rebel against their creators. The Geth did not rebel. The Catalyst is wrong. It doesn't matter how many walls of text you write, the Catalyst is objectively, undeniably and empirically wrong according to all the evidence presented in the game.

[Cypher_CS]

The Angry One wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

The Geth did not rebel against their creators. Ergo, the Catalyst is objectively and undeniably wrong.

Yeah, go take a course in logic and basic reading or listening comprehension and then come back, pleaes.

They "rebelled" AFTER the Quarians started killing them for daring to ask what they were.

The Quarians started it. Twice.

Don't bother, he'll just retort with the technicality that fighting against your rulers even if they're trying to kill you is still "rebellion", even though that's not the implied meaning that the Catalyst uses.

Of course the Catalyst, like all psychopathic dictators, relies on technicalities for it's broken logic, and so do it's supporters.

Don't assume what I'll reply with, especially considering my replies are open for all to see, and you've argued against my replies countless times.

Considering the latter, you should know that would NOT be my reply.
I don't care about that technicallity.
I'm only interested in the notion that what the Catalyst talking about is an eventuality, and invariability.
No example, singular or otherwise, you take currently can refute, logically, the statement of invariability.

[Cypher_CS]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

The Geth did not rebel against their creators. Ergo, the Catalyst is objectively and undeniably wrong.

Yeah, go take a course in logic and basic reading or listening comprehension and then come back, pleaes.

The Catalyst says that the created will always rebel against their creators. The Geth did not rebel. The Catalyst is wrong. It doesn't matter how many walls of text you write, the Catalyst is objectively, undeniably and empirically wrong according to all the evidence presented in the game.

Watch this, and maybe you'll understand: 
 

[ArcanistLibram]

Hypothesis 0: The created will not always rebel against their creators.
Hypothesis 1: The created will always rebel against their creators.
Evidence: The Geth did not rebel against their creators.
Conclusion: Fail to reject the null hypothesis. The created will not always rebel against their creators.

The Catalyst is wrong.

[The Angry One]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Again...

NOT

SEEING

The WHOLE DAMN PICTURE

It's not one thing.
We can't talk to cockroaches. They don't have speech. There's nothing to be famous about.
We can understand how they behave and what signals they send. But do we care? Do we want to know? No. Cause beyond being pests and spreading disease, they don't do much. At all.

Stop being obtuse. If cockroaches could communicate with us we would damn well want to know.
In the case of AI, it would regard us as intelligent because we can in fact talk to it. Whether it would be interested in talking is another matter, but that it would illogically decide to exterminate us is quite another.

It's the SCALE, the one I mentioned before, that would make such an intelligence not care either.
It would "care" for one thing only - not to get diseases spread in it's system (which would pretty much be the entire cosmic engine, someday).
In the case of cockroaches, such diseases are organic, chemical, harmful to humans.
In the case of this post TS AI, it's Nukes and physical destruction and scorched earths.

Again, that's the fear.

Why would a post TS AI care if we nuke our own planets?
That we could ever achieve the notice of such beings is arrogant "The Day the Earth Stood Still" logic, where no matter how weak we are, we still earn the attention of sufficiently advanced aliens because shut up.

[The Night Mammoth]

JackumsD wrote...

Evidently that was not the case for BioWare. But either way; opinion.

Eh? Under what circumstances is changing the entire reason you read the book, watch the film, or play the game, in the last five minutes via three lines of poorly explaind dialogue good or even acceptable?

Nothing more than the idea of it is being used. A Mass Effect variant of TS is being used, not the real life theory. The real life theory is completely irrelevant beyond its basic idea due to the fact that ME is set in a fictional universe.

So explain the 'Mass Effect' variant, because it seems to me that it's exactly the same as the real-life one, just used as a justification for an unsupported narrative shift. 

The entire explanation without reference to the real-world theory is nothing more than a fabrication to desperately plug holes. 

The Catalyst states "the created will always rebel against the creators."

This is what the geth did.

Ergo, yes, the idea had been presented prior to the end.

A broad enough phrase lacking in context or explanation of any sort, that you could just as easily ignore it. The serpent goes on further from this generalistic nonsense because this isn't its point. 

But it does. The original script even uses the term "technological singularity".

So I was right earlier then, the justification for using the theory is pretty much completely based on the idea being used in a previous script. 

If it aint' in the game, it aint' worth my time. I'm not pick and choosey about this, I disregard anything that didn't happen in game. 

Point being? No-one ever said all synthetics had to be hostile. But hostile synthetics are inevitable, whether by nature or in self-defense.

Not sure anymore, the lack of previous quote and inability to look back in the thread whilst typing means I don't actually know what point I was making. 

I got tired after this point. Either way, the general point being made is that;

1. A technological singularity will occur if organics are allowed to progress to a certain point
2. At such a stage, synthetics will be the dominant faction in the galaxy

From here, conflict is inevitable, just as it is in reality. People will always fight. There will always be war, however small or large in scale. It's human nature. It's constant and it's never-ending. The only difference between now and when a TS has occured is, organics will be inferior to synthetics, giving them power over us. And as long as humans remain, well, human, conflict will arise. They will act and synthetics will retaliate. This does not guarantee extinction, no. But it guarantees negative outcomes, and extinction remains a possibility. A potential outcome too great to simply "assume it won't happen".

And finally, I'll clarify again that I don't agree that the Catalyst's solution was the best way to go about it, and that I was simply explaining the logic of it.

You're talking about a possibility, whereas the Catalyst says it's a certainty. 

Your point and explanation does not match up with what you're trying to prove. The serpent brings to evidence, it's basic obvious reasoning is dubious at best, I have examples of peaceful synthetics, and the idea of a sungularity in any from is never brought up. 

Why should I put stock into anything it says? It tries to explain the new defining conflict of the entire series in three lines of illogical and ambiguous dialogue, and it does a poor job of it. Themes are important in fiction, sticking to them moreso. This is not a theme in this fiction. I ignore the problem and continue with my choice as if it never even spoke the words "synthetics will wipe out all organics", and the narrative is better for it. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 29 mai 2012 - 02:20 .

[Cypher_CS]

.... It's NOT about nuking OUR own planets.
It's about Nuking it's planets.

And... if it's indeed a galaxy spanning AI - for example like the UI in the Hyperion Cantos - then all Planets are it's planets.

[The Angry One]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Don't assume what I'll reply with, especially considering my replies are open for all to see, and you've argued against my replies countless times.

Considering the latter, you should know that would NOT be my reply.
I don't care about that technicallity.

Translation: I pre-empted you and now you seem mad.

I'm only interested in the notion that what the Catalyst talking about is an eventuality, and invariability.
No example, singular or otherwise, you take currently can refute, logically, the statement of invariability.

Continued nuclear testing will create Godzilla. Godzilla will then wipe out all life as we know it. This is eventual and inevitable.
No example, singular or otherwise can refute this statement of invariability.

[Cypher_CS]

Also, note, the TS doesn't necessarily mean extermination of all organic life, but it does talk about using organic life.

Just like we use our Neurons and various other messenger cells, so it might use us.
But then, that becomes subjugation, eventually. And, us being Humans, we'd rebel, ending in...
Well, we're back to that now

[The Angry One]

Cypher_CS wrote...

.... It's NOT about nuking OUR own planets.
It's about Nuking it's planets.

I'm sorry, are we a threat to a TS or not? Because you're sounding like we are when it's convenient.

And... if it's indeed a galaxy spanning AI - for example like the UI in the Hyperion Cantos - then all Planets are it's planets.

So, basically, you are arguing that this vast superior intelligence also has a massive emotional ego that declares all planets it's own even if it doesn't use them.

Cypher_CS wrote...

Also, note, the TS doesn't necessarily mean extermination of all organic life, but it does talk about using organic life.

Just like we use our Neurons and various other messenger cells, so it might use us.

What, like synthesis?
Also, yes. TS doesn't mean extermination. That's my point. The Catalyst's view of TS however, does. He's wrong.

But then, that becomes subjugation, eventually. And, us being Humans, we'd rebel, ending in...
Well, we're back to that now

But we can't fight a TS, remember?

Modifié par The Angry One, 29 mai 2012 - 02:21 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Also, note, the TS doesn't necessarily mean extermination of all organic life, but it does talk about using organic life.

That's one of many theoretical outcomes. 

[Cypher_CS]

The Angry One wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

Don't assume what I'll reply with, especially considering my replies are open for all to see, and you've argued against my replies countless times.

Considering the latter, you should know that would NOT be my reply.
I don't care about that technicallity.

Translation: I pre-empted you and now you seem mad.

It's a free forum, my profile is not private and you can view my post history. Have fun....

[Cypher_CS]

Look, you're not going to provoke me or, I'm assuming, any of the other people here posting with some forethought, to a flame war to which you could later claim all your victories.

If you insist on dividing things up and removing the whole content, the complete content. Have fun.

[fr33stylez]

I don't care what the Catalyst is basing its flawed logic on, it never says his conclusions are based from his vast experiences in previous cycles. If it wanted to say that, it should have - I'm not going to make that assumption in order to justify the story.

Regardless, it's bad storytelling, even if you believe the Catalyst's logic is correct. Who cares if the Catalyst saw Synthestics 'rebel' in other cycles? This is never a focus in the ME trilogy - having the Catalyst come in the last 5 minutes and tell you this holds little weight. The only Synthetic vs. Organic conflict focused in the trilogy is resolved. The Reapers actually excacerbate many of the conflicts in the trilogy, including the Geth/Quarian conflict. The Catalyst can't all of a sudden say "Well...I've seen it happen before, so you must listen to me!" when there's been no exposition on this matter anytime in ME1-3.

It's bad writing.

[frylock23]

Cypher_CS wrote...

With our technology today, can we not translate cockroach pheromones? Or, rather, catalogue them based on behavior?
Sure we can.

What have we chosen to do?
We're only interested in removing their presence.

Sure, it's much more complex in the case of the TS and humans.
But the basic idea is there.

You know there are people who spend their careers working on ant pheromones and cockroach pheromones and other things of that nature. There are scientists absolutely devoted to working on those concepts and understanding how animals of all kinds communicate and deciphering their chemical signals for a variety of reasons beyond simply removing their presence.

[The Angry One]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Look, you're not going to provoke me or, I'm assuming, any of the other people here posting with some forethought, to a flame war to which you could later claim all your victories.

A common trait among pro-enders. Insult and provoke, then claim the other party is doing that when we mock your efforts.
This is what BioWare is appealing to now. Super.

If you insist on dividing things up and removing the whole content, the complete content. Have fun.

I've quoted your posts in their entirety whereas you have not done so to mine. Which is not in itself a bad thing, as nobody is obligated to respond to everything or it's pointless/irrelevant. But really?