1057 réponses à ce sujet

[llbountyhunter]

im not sure if this has been brought up... but if the catalist was indeed trying to "help" organics, then why did he upgrade the geth to wipe out the quarians?

no salvation for them huh?

[Grimwick]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The relays aren't even destroyed in Control, you know that right?

Reason number two why I choose it. 

This is pure speculation.

[llbountyhunter]

the catylist is such a colorful character.



explaining reasons for cycles

"Without us to stop them, sythetics will destroy all organic life"

Trying to get me to pick Synthesis:

"Synthetics are a part of you. Can you imagine your life without them?"

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 29 mai 2012 - 10:10 .

[frylock23]

Lets' change Star Brat's argument a bit.

Everyone knows about H1N1 Bird Flu I'm sure. In order for it to become the next major Pandemic Plague, it will likely have to become infectious through pigs to people. That's one reason why that Mexican Swine Flu of a couple years ago was so worrisome. Everyone who studies flu knows that it's highly likely that it's just a matter of time before the next major pandemic strain breaks out and that it could be deadlier and more virulent than the 1918 Spanish Flu.

Now if we are to take the Star Brat approach, we should try to eradicate all pigs to eliminate the threat of Swine Flu, or perhaps, we should also try to wipe out all chickens and other domestic fowl as well.

That's the sort of extreme approach the Star Brat has opted for. We do know based on the past and the probabilities that it's likely only a matter of time before the next killer virus passes from an animal to humans, but there's also a chance it doesn't happen. And, there's a chance that when it does it will be another strain like the Mexican Swine flu which was by and large just a mild to severe flu for most people who caught it and only life-threatening to a few and a few select demographic groups.

But at the end of the say, whatever you pick, you are still left with the knowledge that you are choosing based entirely on a theoretical threat.

Modifié par frylock23, 29 mai 2012 - 10:36 .

[llbountyhunter]

frylock23 wrote...

Lets' change Star Brat's argument a bit.

Everyone knows about H1N1 Bird Flu I'm sure. In order for it to become the next major Pandemic Plague, it will likely have to become infectious through pigs to people. That's one reason why that Mexican Swine Flu of a couple years ago was so worrisome. Everyone who studies flu knows that it's highly likely that it's just a matter of time before the next major pandemic strain breaks out and that it could be deadlier and more virulent than the 1918 Spanish Flu.

Now if we are to take the Star Brat approach, we should try to eradicate all pigs to eliminate the threat of Swine Flu, or perhaps, we should also try to wipe out all chickens and other domestic fowl as well.

That's the sort of extreme approach the Star Brat has opted for. We do know based on the past and the probabilities that it's likely only a matter of time before the next killer virus passes from an animal to humans, but there's also a chance it doesn't happen. And, there's a chance that when it does it will be another strain like the Mexican Swine flu which was by and large just a mild to severe flu for most people who caught it and only life-threatening to a few and a few select demographic groups.

But at the end of the say, whatever you pick, you are still left with the knowledge that you are choosing based entirely on a theoretical threat.

well in the past synthetics have never (in the me universe) laid the fist strike. they always attack in self defence. there ISNT a threat. 

this alone lets you throw out the "synhetics rebell against their creators" which we know from multiple events that this just isnt the case.

[zenoxis]

Please don't encourage Bioware...their writing team isn't THAT deep. This is clearly evidenced by the fact that they never intended the IT to be true and would never have come up with anything so intricate anyways.

[zovoes]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The Geth almost reached a singularity, or at least Legion states as much. I don't see a Dyson sphere as a singularity. It's a type two civilization device.

they did hit it i think. they have their sphere about done and were in it and they get hit with that new flash bang thing that xin came up with and got their ass handed to them. that's what makes this whole argument fall apart. people keep acting like hitting that state is some form of magic and that the limitations of the AI's form will just go 'poof' and they will be gods.

[draken-heart]

y'know, if BW keeps the ending that is in the game Mass Effect is dead, so if they want to save their big ticket franchise and stay afloat that need to take IT and release post-game DLC, or any theory that makes the endgame after the Harby beam all in shepard's head. just saying

[Shermos]

Very good post JSepppp. Thank you.

Modifié par Shermos, 30 mai 2012 - 03:03 .

[Cypher_CS]

frylock23 wrote...

Now if we are to take the Star Brat approach, we should try to eradicate all pigs to eliminate the threat of Swine Flu, or perhaps, we should also try to wipe out all chickens and other domestic fowl as well.

Here's a cool Anecdote.
That's exactly why Pigs are not Kosher according to Judaism and, subsequently, Islam.

Not only are we not supposed to eat Pigs, but we aren't even allowed to raise them on Israeli soil.
The basis for this prohibition is brought in text from over 2000 years ago, by a telling of a disease that easily spreads from Pigs to Humans.
Basically, what makes Pigs such great donors to Humans is the same thing that makes them non Kosher

[Cypher_CS]

llbountyhunter wrote...

well in the past synthetics have never (in the me universe) laid the fist strike. they always attack in self defence. there ISNT a threat. 

this alone lets you throw out the "synhetics rebell against their creators" which we know from multiple events that this just isnt the case.

Again, that is NOT evidence against the eventuality, the invariability, the Catalyst speaks of.
Also, it doesn't matter who starts the war - you can be the rebel without being the first aggressor.
All that matters is that, according to the Catalyst, the Synthetics, invariably, in a gazzillion years, will be the ones to end it.

[EricHVela]

If it takes head-canon to make sense out of the Catalyst's logic, someone fell down on the job.

Sad thing is, it's still just head-canon. This explanation of the "logic" requires too many things that are not in the game and are but one possible way to fill the plot holes out of many possibilities.

[frylock23]

Cypher_CS wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

Now if we are to take the Star Brat approach, we should try to eradicate all pigs to eliminate the threat of Swine Flu, or perhaps, we should also try to wipe out all chickens and other domestic fowl as well.

Here's a cool Anecdote.
That's exactly why Pigs are not Kosher according to Judaism and, subsequently, Islam.

Not only are we not supposed to eat Pigs, but we aren't even allowed to raise them on Israeli soil.
The basis for this prohibition is brought in text from over 2000 years ago, by a telling of a disease that easily spreads from Pigs to Humans.
Basically, what makes Pigs such great donors to Humans is the same thing that makes them non Kosher

Yes, most of the Old Testament Laws seem strange until you consider that they do make sense according to them being a way to combat public health threats in some of the only ways available to people of that day and age.

[Cadeym]

The Catalyst's logic is incredibly flawed.

How does any of the endings prevent organics from eventually creating synthetics? all self aware beings (especially humans) dislike tedious or hazardous jobs. Aslong as a circuit can be created it is resonable to assume that organics will want to create robots to do their work for them.

The Catalyst claims synthesis to be a new solution. But for it to actually be a solution it would have to resolve a problem, which is that organics create self aware programs.


edit

The only solution that I can think of which would actually solve the problem at hand, is to alter the genetic code so that no creature is self aware.

Modifié par Mouseraider, 30 mai 2012 - 03:38 .

[zovoes]

two words occam's razor. the catalyst's plane is no more effective at stopping AIs then just killing them and takes way more work/planing/resources. why would you logically pick it over just being a policing force for the galaxy? if the reapers are just puppets then you could make them out of anything ever cloned tissue, so why go through all this crap just to stop AI? its far too much work for far too little pay off.

[JShepppp]

Mouseraider wrote...

The Catalyst's logic is incredibly flawed.

How does any of the endings prevent organics from eventually creating synthetics? all self aware beings (especially humans) dislike tedious or hazardous jobs. Aslong as a circuit can be created it is resonable to assume that organics will want to create robots to do their work for them.

If the Catalyst could stop the creation of synthetics, it might try that. But the idea is that creating synthetics is so ingrained that you can't stop it. Basically, this above part is in agreement with the Catalyst - it feels it has to perpetually enact its "solution" because synthetics will always be created. this is also a reason why it doesn't kill synthetics instead.

The Catalyst claims synthesis to be a new solution. But for it to actually be a solution it would have to resolve a problem, which is that organics create self aware programs.

Creation of self aware programs is not the problem. It's part of the problem. The singularity states that organics will forever be at synthetics' mercy (due to the rise of self-aware, self-evolving AIs). With Synthesis, the singularity is impossible because organics can advance just as fast as synthetics because, in theory, there is no difference between the two anymore. New synthetics won't be able to evolve faster because organics already have the synthetic parts that would make such evolution possible. 

Basically, organics would be "on par" with synthetics at all times, eliminating the singularity. 

edit

The only solution that I can think of which would actually solve the problem at hand, is to alter the genetic code so that no creature is self aware.

But more self-aware synthetics can be created too. Both organics and synthetics are part of the problem, so to speak, so a full solution needs to take both into account.

[JShepppp]

llbountyhunter wrote...

im not sure if this has been brought up... but if the catalist was indeed trying to "help" organics, then why did he upgrade the geth to wipe out the quarians?

no salvation for them huh?

Good point. I think it was becuase they didn't really consider the quarians worth saving anyways due to their genetic weaknesses and stuff. At the very least, having the Geth as tools to help conquer other races may be worth sacrificing the Quarians anyways.

[JShepppp]

zovoes wrote...

two words occam's razor. the catalyst's plane is no more effective at stopping AIs then just killing them and takes way more work/planing/resources. why would you logically pick it over just being a policing force for the galaxy? if the reapers are just puppets then you could make them out of anything ever cloned tissue, so why go through all this crap just to stop AI? its far too much work for far too little pay off.

Killing synthetics can be problematic because (a) organics, unimpeded, may create synthetics more powerful than the Reapers, and ( it does not solve or stop the singularity, which the Catalyst views to be the problem. 

[zovoes]

JShepppp wrote...

zovoes wrote...

two words occam's razor. the catalyst's plane is no more effective at stopping AIs then just killing them and takes way more work/planing/resources. why would you logically pick it over just being a policing force for the galaxy? if the reapers are just puppets then you could make them out of anything ever cloned tissue, so why go through all this crap just to stop AI? its far too much work for far too little pay off.

Killing synthetics can be problematic because (a) organics, unimpeded, may create synthetics more powerful than the Reapers, and ( it does not solve or stop the singularity, which the Catalyst views to be the problem. 

then they tell them and show them in no uncertain terms what these evil AI could do if let loose. if they don't want to work with the reapers then kill them if you want. also the reapers only have 1% of the galaxy under there boot if they were so big on stoping this singularity then why did they stop at the 1% they have and not move onto more, they had the time. who's to say that this boogeyman is not just going to walk out of some unmapped part if the galaxy? add to that the singularity will still have limits, it will not be a god, so even then it could be stopped. hell if they argument of "give it enough time and it will happen" stands then you could say that with enough time such a thing would die off just like EVERY OTHER FORM OF LIFE WILL. it will not be the borg with cartoonish powers it can and will be stoped and then org life will start up again. they dropped it as the plot in the first place because of how dumb it was in the first place, it was only after the  dark energy ending leak that that they put it back in to save time.

edit: format and spelling

Modifié par zovoes, 30 mai 2012 - 04:20 .

[Cadeym]

JShepppp :

I actually hadn't thought about it that way. While it does slightly alter my perception of the synthesis ending, I find the concept that an organic brain would be capable of evolving/advancing at the speed of technological singularity to be rather unrealistic.

For people (especially me) to stop complaining about the logical problems. BioWare will have to edit the game so that the solutions provided at the end match that which could be plausible in real life.

Modifié par Mouseraider, 30 mai 2012 - 05:00 .

[Dendio1]

I could have sworn I saw that sentence in game, that synthetics don't love or hate you, but they can use your atoms for something else. ( javik maybe?)

The reapers are revealed to be neither good nor evil. They are following their function and look at things on such a grand scale that an entire race, let alone a single organic is meaningless. What we see as atrocities are insignificant causalities in their eyes.

Taking star kid seriously, it seems irresponsible to choose destroy.

Synthesis is a means to an end, but asks that shepard perform the questionable act of violating every organic/synthetic in the universe on the most personal level possible, changing who they are fundamentally.

Control allows the reapers to remain under shepards control, but does not directly prevent future technology that surpasses the reapers.


OP I think the main problem is the dramatic shift in scale during the last 5 mins of the game. ME1-3 told us the story from shepards point of view. We saw the collector base as a monstrosity. We fought the reapers for every organic they killed. Then in the last 5 mins we suddenly gain a perspective on a scale of billions of years and countless cycles of organics. On this scale what the reapers have done since ME1 is barely significant. Now we are talking about the existence of organic life period.

Its a dramatic shift that is poorly executed and leaves the player trying to figure out which narrative lens the game is presenting itself in, that of shepards or of the star kid.
Its disorienting as heck and its easy to just throw your hands up, run in to the light and leave in disgust and confusion over what the hell happened.

Modifié par Dendio1, 30 mai 2012 - 09:33 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Grimwick wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The relays aren't even destroyed in Control, you know that right?

Reason number two why I choose it. 

This is pure speculation.

Sure, why not. Most things are speculation these days. 

[The Night Mammoth]

zovoes wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The Geth almost reached a singularity, or at least Legion states as much. I don't see a Dyson sphere as a singularity. It's a type two civilization device.

they did hit it i think. they have their sphere about done and were in it and they get hit with that new flash bang thing that xin came up with and got their ass handed to them. that's what makes this whole argument fall apart. people keep acting like hitting that state is some form of magic and that the limitations of the AI's form will just go 'poof' and they will be gods.

They didn't. The Dyson Sphere was either incomplete or most of the Geth weren't uploaded into it yet. 

[PsyrenY]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

They didn't. The Dyson Sphere was either incomplete or most of the Geth weren't uploaded into it yet. 

The physical structure was certainly complete; Legion tells you this itself. They were in the process of uploading when the Quarians attacked.

zenoxis wrote...

Please don't encourage Bioware...their writing team isn't THAT deep.

I will do everything I can to "encourage Bioware" because we know for a fact that they ARE "that deep." Rannoch and Tuchanka prove it.

And I'm supremely glad that I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 30 mai 2012 - 10:49 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Optimystic_X wrote...

zenoxis wrote...

Please don't encourage Bioware...their writing team isn't THAT deep.

I will do everything I can to "encourage Bioware" because we know for a fact that they ARE "that deep." Rannoch and Tuchanka prove it.

And I'm supremely glad that I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Tuchanka does, and most things surrounding that segment. 

Not convinced by Rannoch though.