1057 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

It's actually pretty clear what happens in 2001...

The issue is that the audience didn't understand the story and Bioware has chosen to rectify it.

The Catalyst still presents a fallacy though and I don't think Bioware will be addressing it...

[Eluril]

I'm not saying the ending doesn't have problems or that it's well done. I'm just saying some of the complaints are wrong headed or non-objective assessments of an art form such as Science fiction tale. 1984, Atlas Shrugged, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. All of them have open ended endings with lots of ambiguity to them and openness to interpretation or discussion. That's kind of why writers write stories. They don't want people to say "Wow that was a great story" and then continue on with the rest of their lives. People for the most part write to impact people's thinking, hopes, dreams, fears etc. Speculation is part of Science fiction, that's what makes it science fiction.

[mass perfection]

The ending is still bad and Synthesis is evil.They should never of put the whole human vs. robot theme in Mass Effect.Keep that in Too Human or Terminator.

Modifié par mass perfection, 12 juin 2012 - 04:56 .

[Iecerint]

JShepppp wrote...
Thanks. I didn't know EDI survived in destroy. As for Shep, someone mentioned an idea here that I liked - that a higher EMS means the Crucible was built "better" so only kills "more synthetic" people. The Reapers are "synthetic" enough that they, along with the Geth, will die, but Shep escapes.

Possibly just a programming oversight re: EDI, but yeah, I can confirm this.  She can exit the Normany with Joker and the other squadmate if she was with you.  Some anti-IT people have speculated that it may be unique to players who encourage her to self-determine more in her conversations, but I don't know if that plays out of not either way.

Shepard should die just from what happens to the Crucible/Citadel -- nevermind the red wave.  It's a good way to account for the red wave not killing him, though.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

JShepppp wrote...

I thought the dark energy was mainly halestrom, which was just one random mission, plus the human reaper and mordin talking about human genetic diversity.

The Haelstrom mission does not make it out to be exclusive to that one planet. Also Gianna Parasini mentions it, and it's brought up in several codex entries. In other words: the Dark Energy threat is one which is validated to the player without the Reapers being present; we know what threat it represents. The Human Reapers doesn't validate the synthetic-organic dichotomy posed to us.

Synthetic/organic conflict was introduced back from me1.

It was introduced in ME1. And then it was scrapped. The entire point of Legion, EDI, the Geth, the Reaper reveal, etc, was that we've moved away (thematically) from the idea that organics and machines cannot co-exist.

As I said, that's why when the Catalyst brought up his insane reasoning, my response was: "I thought this plot point was done?".

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 12 juin 2012 - 12:21 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Cypher_CS wrote...

He isn't.
He's applying "common" knowledge.

Well yeah, he is. Using 'common' knowledge or not. 

The list of assumptions aren't the Catalyst's, they're JShepppp's, and they create a completely different story to they one we're actually told about. 

He's not proving the Catalyst right, because that's literally impossible, he's fabricating his own scenario, so it's all wonderful 'speculation'. 

The point about the singularity is ludicrous. It's a leap of logic as metaphorically huge as jumping straight over the pacific ocean to believe that's the route cause. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 12 juin 2012 - 01:01 .

[SplendorMan]

It honestly is a good explanation to an ending a lot of people DO NOT like. I'm personally in favor of IT, only because i feel it ascends the whole story into an epic, otherworldly production that would blow any other story away in our generation. But i did enjoy reading this OP, its brought some logic to both sides ( IT theorists, original ending supporters ) and sometimes you need to read BOTH sides arguments.
Bravo, OP. Looking forward to more posts.

[joecool280]

This was a brilliant, well thought out topic, this was the first I had heard of a technolgical singularity, and it was VERY interesting reading about it! I have been thinking this over, and this seems to make perfect sense, and I hope they include some of this in the extended edition!

[Ieldra]

joecool280 wrote...
This was a brilliant, well thought out topic, this was the first I had heard of a technolgical singularity, and it was VERY interesting reading about it! I have been thinking this over, and this seems to make perfect sense, and I hope they include some of this in the extended edition!

Hopefully. It was one of my first suggestions in the "Suggested changes" thread, that they revert to the phrasing of the leaked script which explicitly put forward the tech singularity as the reason why synthetics would cause the extinction of organics. 

I never fail to shake my head at the rephrased dialogue we get in the game. They had dialogue that made sense and they cut it. The amount of unadulterated "fail" in such an action.... astonishing.

[Taboo]

Please don't ever mention Ayn Rand.

Ever.

Please.

He still appeals to probability though, so Bioware is kind of stuck with that.

[JShepppp]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

I thought the dark energy was mainly halestrom, which was just one random mission, plus the human reaper and mordin talking about human genetic diversity.

The Haelstrom mission does not make it out to be exclusive to that one planet. Also Gianna Parasini mentions it, and it's brought up in several codex entries. In other words: the Dark Energy threat is one which is validated to the player without the Reapers being present; we know what threat it represents. The Human Reapers doesn't validate the synthetic-organic dichotomy posed to us.

Maybe I didn't pay attention enough, but it didn't seem that prevalent. 

Synthetic/organic conflict was introduced back from me1.

It was introduced in ME1. And then it was scrapped. The entire point of Legion, EDI, the Geth, the Reaper reveal, etc, was that we've moved away (thematically) from the idea that organics and machines cannot co-exist.

As I said, that's why when the Catalyst brought up his insane reasoning, my response was: "I thought this plot point was done?".

I thought Legion, EDI, Geth, and the Reapers, etc. were all about showing that the organic/synthetic conflict is not black/white. This is what makes it, imo, a better theme than dark energy, which is universally "bad" as something that will consume everything that we must stop. 

All the synthetic situations - good and bad - in ME both help and go against what the Catalyst is worried about regarding synthetics.

[JShepppp]

SplendorMan wrote...

It honestly is a good explanation to an ending a lot of people DO NOT like. I'm personally in favor of IT, only because i feel it ascends the whole story into an epic, otherworldly production that would blow any other story away in our generation. But i did enjoy reading this OP, its brought some logic to both sides ( IT theorists, original ending supporters ) and sometimes you need to read BOTH sides arguments.
Bravo, OP. Looking forward to more posts.

Thank you. Glad you enjoyed, and it's awesome to see people who disagree but are nice about it lol.

[JShepppp]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

He isn't.
He's applying "common" knowledge.

Well yeah, he is. Using 'common' knowledge or not. 

The list of assumptions aren't the Catalyst's, they're JShepppp's, and they create a completely different story to they one we're actually told about. 

He's not proving the Catalyst right, because that's literally impossible, he's fabricating his own scenario, so it's all wonderful 'speculation'. 

The point about the singularity is ludicrous. It's a leap of logic as metaphorically huge as jumping straight over the pacific ocean to believe that's the route cause. 

Night Mammoth, feel free to disagree with me. As I said, I know it's not 100% foolproof. This was my way of trying to make sense of the ending. If you disagree, I respect that.

As for the singularity, that came from the leaked script. Your choice whether to take that or not.

[JShepppp]

Ieldra2 wrote...

joecool280 wrote...
This was a brilliant, well thought out topic, this was the first I had heard of a technolgical singularity, and it was VERY interesting reading about it! I have been thinking this over, and this seems to make perfect sense, and I hope they include some of this in the extended edition!

Hopefully. It was one of my first suggestions in the "Suggested changes" thread, that they revert to the phrasing of the leaked script which explicitly put forward the tech singularity as the reason why synthetics would cause the extinction of organics. 

I never fail to shake my head at the rephrased dialogue we get in the game. They had dialogue that made sense and they cut it. The amount of unadulterated "fail" in such an action.... astonishing.

@joecool280: Thanks, glad you enjoyed. And yeah, I hope it's included in the EC as well.

@Ieldra2: As you know by now lol, I agree. Still wanted to say that again anyways because it's that important.

[Taboo]

It won't matter if he doesn't address the appeal to probability. He needs numbers...

Is Bioware aware of this? I don't think so, as such a glaring omission is too...well omitted. It's actually better with it.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 16 juin 2012 - 11:27 .

[JShepppp]

Taboo-XX wrote...

It won't matter if he doesn't address the appeal to probability. He needs numbers...

Is Bioware aware of this? I don't think so, as such a glaring omission is too...well omitted. It's actually better with it.

You're right. Just a simple line where the Catalyst is like "every cycle xxx happens..." or something then it would help a lot. 

[Taboo]

I don't think they'll do it though. They want me to believe in the totality of the scene. It's also your game. and I know that we won't have an issue for at least ten thousand years, as I have a strong feeling that the Star Gazer scene will be staying in place.

But he can't provide data either, as he harvests before it can be collected. He harvests when he notices a hyperbolic growth and doesn't account for feedback loops.

Unless they REALLY work at it, nothing he says will have any validity.

[TwilightChamp]

I was reading this one again and something occurs to me.

How in the universe does the Catalyst have data about what happens post-Singularity?

Here's my logic, and it's not so complicated.

1) Rational decision-making requires one be able to confidently understand the likely outcomes based on data.
2) The Singularity by definition cannot be truly comprehended by cultures that have not experienced it.
3) The Singularity is irreversible once it occurs.

If the Singularity is irreversible and incomprehensible to pre-Singularity cultures, the Catalyst is not attempting to solve a problem in a rational way. It cannot have factual data on the Singularity because the only way to do so is for the Singularity to have occurred, at which point the problem of the Singularity becomes Simply The Way Things Are Machine Without End.

This may explain why it has been unable to solve the problem over the course of untold ages, the data is unavailable to solve the problem, and the solution is that organic life would finally evolve into something wise and puissant enough to put a stop to the silliness.

It's even possible that the organic race that built it got freaked out by demagoguery about the Singularity and made the thing to make sure it never happened, but then that becomes a 'Well who the hell were those morons?' kind of thing.

[Kunari801]

JShepppp wrote...
V. Leaked Script Dialogue

I use this dialogue to support my ideas about the Catalyst; of course, the validity of its use is open to debate (See the first point in Part III of this thread). I pushed the script to the end of the OP because it's long and I didn't want to turn people off with a lot of reading. This is from back in November 2011. Note that "dark energy" was not in this. 

Ieldra2 kindly helped with this.

CATALYST: Take my hand.

SHEPARD: What...where is this? 

CATALYST: This is the Citadel. Where I live. 

SHEPARD: And who are you, exactly?

CATALYST: I am the Catalyst. 

SHEPARD: I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst. 

CATALYST: A simple mistake. The Citadel is part of me. I was created eons ago to solve a problem. 

SHEPARD: What problem is that?

CATALYST: To prevent organics from creating an AI so powerful that it would overtake them and destroy them. 

SHEPARD: But that's exactly what you're doing. 

CATALYST: Not exactly. The Reapers harvest fully developed civilizations, leaving the less developed ones intact. Just as we left your species when we were here last. 

SHEPARD: But you killed the rest...

CATALYST: We harvested them. We brought order to the chaos. We helped them ascend and become one of us, allowing new life to flourish, while preserving the old life forever in Reaper form. 

SHEPARD: I think we'd rather keep our own form. - OR - You could never understand. We don't want to be preserved!

CATALYST: Impossible. Organics will always trend to a point of technological singularity. A moment im time where their creations outgrow them. Conflict is the only result, and extinction the consequence. My solution creates a cycle which never reaches that point. Organic life is preserved. 

SHEPARD: But you're taking away our future. Without future, we have no hope. Without hope...we might as well be a machine...programmed to do what we're told. - OR - The defining characteristic of organic life is that we think for ourselves. Make our own choices. You take that away and we might as well be machines just like you. 

CATALYST: There is hope. Maybe more than you know. - OR - You have choice. More than you know. 

CATALYST (Continued): The fact that you are standing here, the first organic to do so in countless cycles, proves this. Just as it proves my solution is no longer valid.

SHEPARD: So now what?

CATALYST: A new solution must be found. The Crucible has altered my function. I can't proceed. I can only guide you in its use. 

SHEPARD: I don't understand.

CATALYST: Its energy can be released as a destructive force. Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will succumb, as will much of the technology your kind rely on, including the relays you depend on. 

SHEPARD; But the Reapers will be dead?

CATALYST: Correct. But the probability of singularity occurring again in the future is certain.

SHEPARD: And the other choice?

CATALYST: Harness the Crucible's energy. Use it to take control of the ones you call the Reapers. 

SHEPARD: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.

CATALYST: Correct...though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him. 

SHEPARD: What would happen to me?

CATALYST: You will become the Catalyst. You will continue the cycle as you see fit.

SHEPARD: And the Reapers will obey me?

CATALYST: Correct. There is one other solution. You may combine the synthetic and the organic.

SHEPARD: Combine? So, I just...

CATALYST: Add your energy, your essence, with that of the Crucible. The resulting chain reaction will transform both of our kind. We synthetics will become more like you, and organic life will become like us. 

SHEPARD: So we'll just...go on living, together? 

CATALYST: It is a very elegant solution. And a path you have already started down. The harvesting will cease. It will be a new ascension, for synthetic and organic life. 

CATALYST (After choices explanation): But you must choose. - OR - But you must act. I can't proceed. Go. If you don't, the cycle will continue, but I will no longer control the Reapers.

This is interesting not only because it states the technological singularity (and is more specific about the effects of each ending), but the Catalyst also gives a reason why it helps Shepard in the last line. Somehow, the Crucible permanently detached the Catalyst's control from the Reapers and it was afraid of them running rampant on the galaxy, and thus it needed Shepard to activate the Crucible.

Activating the Crucible suddenly becomes in both the Catalyst and Shepard's interests, giving more of a reason to trust it. 

Thread necro sorry but this leaked version of the Star-brat converstaion is so much better than the one we did get in ME3.   

[JShepppp]

I didn't know this thread was completely dead. My bad, I was planning to update the OP sometime soon, just work was getting in the way and all. But perhaps I shall do it today before people truly move on.

[Taboo]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.

He still presents a fallacy.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.

[JShepppp]

Lol Taboo. Anyways I kind of lied, have a bit of work. The update will be done by Sunday at the latest.

Modifié par JShepppp, 21 juin 2012 - 03:50 .

[Ieldra]

Looking forward to it, JShepppp. I think the discussion died down because almost everyone now knows the main point you're making with this thread, and most people have their opinion about it.

When you update, can you post which sections you're updating in an extra post, please? It's not fun to have to go through everything again.

[Vigilant111]

JShepppp wrote...

Lol Taboo. Anyways I kind of lied, have a bit of work. The update will be done by Sunday at the latest.

Tell your friends we are coming for them

Modifié par Vigilant111, 21 juin 2012 - 11:06 .

[JShepppp]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Looking forward to it, JShepppp. I think the discussion died down because almost everyone now knows the main point you're making with this thread, and most people have their opinion about it.

When you update, can you post which sections you're updating in an extra post, please? It's not fun to have to go through everything again.

Of course, wow stupid of me to never think of that. I mostly update the part with points from the thread and maybe format others. This time I'll detail out what I'll end up doing - I'm planning to update the part with points from the thread and write up a new section.