1057 réponses à ce sujet

[Unlimited Pain2]

Laurcus wrote...

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

Railarian wrote...

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

Yet we know one of the functions of the Reapers arriving is to "Preserve organic life by storing it in Reaper form." They also imply that a synthesis between synthetics and organics is the next step in evolution for us which reinforces the ideal of Reapers being a form of that synthesis. So while Reapers are part synthetic and would be affected by "Ending 'C' " they are also organic.

Debatable, but fair enough. They should still rebel against Star Kid however

Well that's assuming he created the Reapers. I don't believe he ever states that he created them, he just says he controls them I think. But if that rebellion logic carried over into beings that have combined both organics and synthetics, then the Starchilds logic towards synthetics rebelling against their creators could be applied to organics just as easily. In which case he should just be wiping out all life everywhere. There's a very unreasonable line of logic in the last 20 minutes of the game.

Technically, the Reapers aren't true hybrids. They are fully synthetic, just with goo pumped into their computer cases. Not my opinion, science fact. We see how they, "ascend" a species in ME2. Turning something into goo is not preservation, because it would destroy the bioelectromagnetism of your cells.

Full cell death is the same exact thing as actual death. They have no living organic parts, therefore they're synthetic.

Actually there's multiple times through ME2 where they're referred to as organic. Regardless of commonly known fact IRL we have no way of knowing exactly what their "harvesting" is, but they do indeed refer to the Reapers as both organic and synthetic many times.

[EricHVela]

My problem with the "solution":

The Catalyst never explains if anyone attempted alternatives (of which there are many that come to mind right now).

Who decided the catalyst was necessary in the first place and what made them believe it was necessary?

Where is the proof that synthetics would *always* wipe out all organic life if life was left to its own devices?

The "logic" fails without proof, and proof would require all life to be extinct at the hands of synthetics.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 29 mars 2012 - 01:18 .

[Xandurpein]

dreman9999 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

A machine created with a purpose that doesn't question it, is not a danger to us, it's when the AI starts to question it's purpose it becomes a potential danger, but then it's already chaotic.

The question of a soul is chaotic thinking. That's clear based on the fact that it one of organics major quetions. But my point is not that machine learning to think chaoticly starts war. Is that the nature of organics do. And a major nature of organics is to cause conflict. You say if we leave them alone, there will be no war. The problem is when have we ever left anyone alone. Their is not one civilization in human history that has ever left another civilization alone. It in our nature to cause conflict.

But that is NOT what the Catalyst says. The Catalyst says "the Created will always turn on their Creators", but your argument is that "the Creators will always turn on their creations". So who is right, you or the Catalyst?

That not it's point nor mine. To rebel is to turn on the creators wishes. If the creators what to destory you and you fight back, you are rebeling. In the end, reguardless if you start the fight or not, you are rebeling. That is the nature of rebelling and revolutions. Many case for a revolution or rebelion, it's the people in charge that causes the conflit. In the case of the creator and created, the creators are the ones in charge.

But to rebell, even for the purpose of survival is chaotic thinking. A "pure" AI will not go against it's Creator's purpose. There's nothing inherently logical about self-preservation. Self-preservation is a desire not logic.

[tjmax]

dreman9999 wrote...

It's not  moral  to organics.
Remeber, morality is a fical thing because everyone has different moral standings. The spanish inqusition thought it was morally right to kill and troucher Jews in an atempt to turnthem into chistaity.
The reapers morality in one of apurely logical machine.
The morality the reapers are using is based on the meaning of being alive and living.
The concept of it can get warped based on morality.  With us we see being alive means a sense of  self idenity, ego, consusneses, self growth and so on. That why we see brain death as a form of true death. That brain dead person lost the foction of their mind, everything about them is gone while their body lives. To a machine it different. Think about it this way,if your computers hard drive fails, do you morn it and bury it, or do you replace the broken hard drive?
That how machines think. To a machine a brain dead person is not dead. They would think to just replace th nonfuctional parts and the person is fine. 

You are missing a couple things.

The reapers like the geth have no morality. They are an unshackled AI that see organics as a threat. all organics.

The catalist is an AI life form with very basic morality and understandings of right and wrong. it knows illiminating all organics is wrong and took control of the reaper AI.

The geth are unshackled AI while leigion advanced to become an AI life form.
Edi started out as an unshackled AI and grew to become an ai life form.

The point of morality is choice.

You know whats right and whats wrong, but you punch the reporter in the face none the less.
You know killing is wrong, but justify it as a means to an end, killing in the name of god or country.
You know stealing is wrong but rob the corner store because of one excuse or another.

Having morality and being moral are two very different things.

[Laurcus]

dreman9999 wrote...

Laurcus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

tjmax wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

tjmax wrote...

Exactly the point.
 
Unshackled AI with out morality would see organics attacking them as a threat and could calculate all organics are a threat and must be distroyed.

AI with morals would defend them selves and eliminate the threat, but not kill organics that are not a threat.

In the case of an Immoral AI vs Moral AI thye would come to odds just as humans do.

But what about the organics who see AI's as a  theat that force conflit with AI's?
What about that nature of organics causing conflict?
These are the thing your missing. You and I as indivisuals can see that beings like EDI and he geth can be allies and friend.
But what about the organics who in mass fear them, and try to cause conflict with them? 
That's the thing you not taking of account.

And that is the reasons behind the choices.

What do you want to do?

Kill all AI?
Control the solution?
Merge AI and organics to make a new life form that all have morals.


I don't say i agree with the choices. But the logic used is from a machine standpoint not a moral one.

It's not  moral  to organics.
Remeber, morality is a fical thing because everyone has different moral standings. The spanish inqusition thought it was morally right to kill and troucher Jews in an atempt to turnthem into chistaity.
The reapers morality in one of apurely logical machine.
The morality the reapers are using is based on the meaning of being alive and living.
The concept of it can get warped based on morality.  With us we see being alive means a sense of  self idenity, ego, consusneses, self growth and so on. That why we see brain death as a form of true death. That brain dead person lost the foction of their mind, everything about them is gone while their body lives. To a machine it different. Think about it this way,if your computers hard drive fails, do you morn it and bury it, or do you replace the broken hard drive?
That how machines think. To a machine a brain dead person is not dead. They would think to just replace th nonfuctional parts and the person is fine. 

You're ignoring the point. Who is going to attack the Geth, and what would cause the Geth to generalize and stereotype all organics based on that.

Let's see, before there was the quarians...Then there was project overlord.....Now we also, have to take in the fact that people have an nature of conflict and hating things different. Then you have to takrein the fact the people many not see them as living indavisuals andtry to control them...People like Xen, or the illusive man or so on and so on.
I know I'm stretching abit but the nature of organic is to cause conflit...Heck, with the geths indivsuality, they could cause the conflict.

Admiral Xen has already given up her xenophobic ways, (in the full paragon path) and even if she hasn't the other Admirals have been shown the error of their ways. Even if she decided to go rogue, she's only the leader of special projects, not any of the fleets. And if the Quarians did try to kill the Geth, they'd have to deal with the Humans, Asari, Salarians, Volus, Krogan, Turians, and Geth.

Illusive Man is dead.

So I ask again. Who, as of the ending of ME3, (assuming the Reapers could be defeated without the loss of any major civilizations) would attack the Geth?

[dreman9999]

Xandurpein wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

A machine created with a purpose that doesn't question it, is not a danger to us, it's when the AI starts to question it's purpose it becomes a potential danger, but then it's already chaotic.

The question of a soul is chaotic thinking. That's clear based on the fact that it one of organics major quetions. But my point is not that machine learning to think chaoticly starts war. Is that the nature of organics do. And a major nature of organics is to cause conflict. You say if we leave them alone, there will be no war. The problem is when have we ever left anyone alone. Their is not one civilization in human history that has ever left another civilization alone. It in our nature to cause conflict.

But that is NOT what the Catalyst says. The Catalyst says "the Created will always turn on their Creators", but your argument is that "the Creators will always turn on their creations". So who is right, you or the Catalyst?

That not it's point nor mine. To rebel is to turn on the creators wishes. If the creators what to destory you and you fight back, you are rebeling. In the end, reguardless if you start the fight or not, you are rebeling. That is the nature of rebelling and revolutions. Many case for a revolution or rebelion, it's the people in charge that causes the conflit. In the case of the creator and created, the creators are the ones in charge.

But to rebell, even for the purpose of survival is chaotic thinking. A "pure" AI will not go against it's Creator's purpose. There's nothing inherently logical about self-preservation. Self-preservation is a desire not logic.

It's a  pure unthinking machine that  would not rebel....AI' s are thinking machines. It's the fact that they are self aware that is the element of them rebeling.

Modifié par dreman9999, 29 mars 2012 - 01:24 .

[miracleofsound]

What about the Reapers?

'The created will always rebel against the creator'

He created them. But they never rebelled. And they're the oldest race in the galaxy.

Modifié par miracleofsound, 29 mars 2012 - 01:24 .

[Laurcus]

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

Laurcus wrote...

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

Railarian wrote...

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

Yet we know one of the functions of the Reapers arriving is to "Preserve organic life by storing it in Reaper form." They also imply that a synthesis between synthetics and organics is the next step in evolution for us which reinforces the ideal of Reapers being a form of that synthesis. So while Reapers are part synthetic and would be affected by "Ending 'C' " they are also organic.

Debatable, but fair enough. They should still rebel against Star Kid however

Well that's assuming he created the Reapers. I don't believe he ever states that he created them, he just says he controls them I think. But if that rebellion logic carried over into beings that have combined both organics and synthetics, then the Starchilds logic towards synthetics rebelling against their creators could be applied to organics just as easily. In which case he should just be wiping out all life everywhere. There's a very unreasonable line of logic in the last 20 minutes of the game.

Technically, the Reapers aren't true hybrids. They are fully synthetic, just with goo pumped into their computer cases. Not my opinion, science fact. We see how they, "ascend" a species in ME2. Turning something into goo is not preservation, because it would destroy the bioelectromagnetism of your cells.

Full cell death is the same exact thing as actual death. They have no living organic parts, therefore they're synthetic.

Actually there's multiple times through ME2 where they're referred to as organic. Regardless of commonly known fact IRL we have no way of knowing exactly what their "harvesting" is, but they do indeed refer to the Reapers as both organic and synthetic many times.

That's only because of their own flawed thinking though. Reapers clearly consider themselves to be hybrids, but that's their opinion, not fact.

[viperabyss]

I have to do some investigation myself to confirm your theory, but your argument does have merit. Kudos to you.

I think the bulk of your argument is focused on Catalyst's viewpoint. Personally I think we have this much problem accepting him is your 7th argument: that he was poorly introduced. Especially after he revealed that he is the creator of the Reaper, somehow we have to work with him to solve a problem using his way.

Either way, thanks for the information. I'll chew on this a little bit.

[SuperVulcan]

I refuse to take anything Shepard does after getting blasted by Harbinger at face value. It isn't real to me. I'm not in denial, I honestly believe its a dream or hallucination.

[Unlimited Pain2]

Laurcus wrote...

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

Laurcus wrote...

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

Railarian wrote...

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

Yet we know one of the functions of the Reapers arriving is to "Preserve organic life by storing it in Reaper form." They also imply that a synthesis between synthetics and organics is the next step in evolution for us which reinforces the ideal of Reapers being a form of that synthesis. So while Reapers are part synthetic and would be affected by "Ending 'C' " they are also organic.

Debatable, but fair enough. They should still rebel against Star Kid however

Well that's assuming he created the Reapers. I don't believe he ever states that he created them, he just says he controls them I think. But if that rebellion logic carried over into beings that have combined both organics and synthetics, then the Starchilds logic towards synthetics rebelling against their creators could be applied to organics just as easily. In which case he should just be wiping out all life everywhere. There's a very unreasonable line of logic in the last 20 minutes of the game.

Technically, the Reapers aren't true hybrids. They are fully synthetic, just with goo pumped into their computer cases. Not my opinion, science fact. We see how they, "ascend" a species in ME2. Turning something into goo is not preservation, because it would destroy the bioelectromagnetism of your cells.

Full cell death is the same exact thing as actual death. They have no living organic parts, therefore they're synthetic.

Actually there's multiple times through ME2 where they're referred to as organic. Regardless of commonly known fact IRL we have no way of knowing exactly what their "harvesting" is, but they do indeed refer to the Reapers as both organic and synthetic many times.

That's only because of their own flawed thinking though. Reapers clearly consider themselves to be hybrids, but that's their opinion, not fact.

And what exactly would be a true hybrid? In my estimation a "successful" hybrid would incorporate the best of both. They're said to be sentient. Legion says something along the lines of "Each Reaper consists of a billion organic minds inhabiting a single body. Each a nation of his own" or something along those lines. Yet they also have hard synthetic parts. I'm not sure how much more hybrid they could get.

[tjmax]

miracleofsound wrote...

What about the Reapers?

'The created will always rebel against the creator'

He created them. But they never rebelled. And they're the oldest race in the galaxy.

He never said he created them. He says the reapers are mine, I control them. I imagine the race that created the catalyst and reapers have long since been wiped out.

[dreman9999]

Laurcus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Laurcus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

tjmax wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

tjmax wrote...

Exactly the point.
 
Unshackled AI with out morality would see organics attacking them as a threat and could calculate all organics are a threat and must be distroyed.

AI with morals would defend them selves and eliminate the threat, but not kill organics that are not a threat.

In the case of an Immoral AI vs Moral AI thye would come to odds just as humans do.

But what about the organics who see AI's as a  theat that force conflit with AI's?
What about that nature of organics causing conflict?
These are the thing your missing. You and I as indivisuals can see that beings like EDI and he geth can be allies and friend.
But what about the organics who in mass fear them, and try to cause conflict with them? 
That's the thing you not taking of account.

And that is the reasons behind the choices.

What do you want to do?

Kill all AI?
Control the solution?
Merge AI and organics to make a new life form that all have morals.


I don't say i agree with the choices. But the logic used is from a machine standpoint not a moral one.

It's not  moral  to organics.
Remeber, morality is a fical thing because everyone has different moral standings. The spanish inqusition thought it was morally right to kill and troucher Jews in an atempt to turnthem into chistaity.
The reapers morality in one of apurely logical machine.
The morality the reapers are using is based on the meaning of being alive and living.
The concept of it can get warped based on morality.  With us we see being alive means a sense of  self idenity, ego, consusneses, self growth and so on. That why we see brain death as a form of true death. That brain dead person lost the foction of their mind, everything about them is gone while their body lives. To a machine it different. Think about it this way,if your computers hard drive fails, do you morn it and bury it, or do you replace the broken hard drive?
That how machines think. To a machine a brain dead person is not dead. They would think to just replace th nonfuctional parts and the person is fine. 

You're ignoring the point. Who is going to attack the Geth, and what would cause the Geth to generalize and stereotype all organics based on that.

Let's see, before there was the quarians...Then there was project overlord.....Now we also, have to take in the fact that people have an nature of conflict and hating things different. Then you have to takrein the fact the people many not see them as living indavisuals andtry to control them...People like Xen, or the illusive man or so on and so on.
I know I'm stretching abit but the nature of organic is to cause conflit...Heck, with the geths indivsuality, they could cause the conflict.

Admiral Xen has already given up her xenophobic ways, (in the full paragon path) and even if she hasn't the other Admirals have been shown the error of their ways. Even if she decided to go rogue, she's only the leader of special projects, not any of the fleets. And if the Quarians did try to kill the Geth, they'd have to deal with the Humans, Asari, Salarians, Volus, Krogan, Turians, and Geth.

Illusive Man is dead.

So I ask again. Who, as of the ending of ME3, (assuming the Reapers could be defeated without the loss of any major civilizations) would attack the Geth?

1. Link me to what states or shows  she 
given up her xenophobic ways? Also, if not a case of her going to war. It's a case ofher trying to take controlof the geth. Even her trying would case the geth ot go to war. Also,there no sighs that all the quarian agree with the peice. Han'garaled only stopped because it would mean the detrution of the quarians. If does meanhe wouldtry again later whne they have better tech.

2. I also said people like the illusive man. Any one can take the detail of project overlord and try to control the geth. Any race...Hech, the salarian may try it out of fear of the krogan overpopulation.

[dreman9999]

tjmax wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's not  moral  to organics.
Remeber, morality is a fical thing because everyone has different moral standings. The spanish inqusition thought it was morally right to kill and troucher Jews in an atempt to turnthem into chistaity.
The reapers morality in one of apurely logical machine.
The morality the reapers are using is based on the meaning of being alive and living.
The concept of it can get warped based on morality.  With us we see being alive means a sense of  self idenity, ego, consusneses, self growth and so on. That why we see brain death as a form of true death. That brain dead person lost the foction of their mind, everything about them is gone while their body lives. To a machine it different. Think about it this way,if your computers hard drive fails, do you morn it and bury it, or do you replace the broken hard drive?
That how machines think. To a machine a brain dead person is not dead. They would think to just replace th nonfuctional parts and the person is fine. 

You are missing a couple things.

The reapers like the geth have no morality. They are an unshackled AI that see organics as a threat. all organics.

The catalist is an AI life form with very basic morality and understandings of right and wrong. it knows illiminating all organics is wrong and took control of the reaper AI.

The geth are unshackled AI while leigion advanced to become an AI life form.
Edi started out as an unshackled AI and grew to become an ai life form.

The point of morality is choice.

You know whats right and whats wrong, but you punch the reporter in the face none the less.
You know killing is wrong, but justify it as a means to an end, killing in the name of god or country.
You know stealing is wrong but rob the corner store because of one excuse or another.

Having morality and being moral are two very different things.

The reapers have morality, that fact they are doing what they are doing shows this. If they didn't they would not care if all organic life was killed off. They would just do their own thing and leave us allown.

[dreman9999]

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

Laurcus wrote...

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

Laurcus wrote...

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

Railarian wrote...

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

Yet we know one of the functions of the Reapers arriving is to "Preserve organic life by storing it in Reaper form." They also imply that a synthesis between synthetics and organics is the next step in evolution for us which reinforces the ideal of Reapers being a form of that synthesis. So while Reapers are part synthetic and would be affected by "Ending 'C' " they are also organic.

Debatable, but fair enough. They should still rebel against Star Kid however

Well that's assuming he created the Reapers. I don't believe he ever states that he created them, he just says he controls them I think. But if that rebellion logic carried over into beings that have combined both organics and synthetics, then the Starchilds logic towards synthetics rebelling against their creators could be applied to organics just as easily. In which case he should just be wiping out all life everywhere. There's a very unreasonable line of logic in the last 20 minutes of the game.

Technically, the Reapers aren't true hybrids. They are fully synthetic, just with goo pumped into their computer cases. Not my opinion, science fact. We see how they, "ascend" a species in ME2. Turning something into goo is not preservation, because it would destroy the bioelectromagnetism of your cells.

Full cell death is the same exact thing as actual death. They have no living organic parts, therefore they're synthetic.

Actually there's multiple times through ME2 where they're referred to as organic. Regardless of commonly known fact IRL we have no way of knowing exactly what their "harvesting" is, but they do indeed refer to the Reapers as both organic and synthetic many times.

That's only because of their own flawed thinking though. Reapers clearly consider themselves to be hybrids, but that's their opinion, not fact.

And what exactly would be a true hybrid? In my estimation a "successful" hybrid would incorporate the best of both. They're said to be sentient. Legion says something along the lines of "Each Reaper consists of a billion organic minds inhabiting a single body. Each a nation of his own" or something along those lines. Yet they also have hard synthetic parts. I'm not sure how much more hybrid they could get.

What Saren was arueing, what the collectors are and the choice the starchild wanted you to pick.

[tjmax]

dreman9999 wrote...

tjmax wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's not  moral  to organics.
Remeber, morality is a fical thing because everyone has different moral standings. The spanish inqusition thought it was morally right to kill and troucher Jews in an atempt to turnthem into chistaity.
The reapers morality in one of apurely logical machine.
The morality the reapers are using is based on the meaning of being alive and living.
The concept of it can get warped based on morality.  With us we see being alive means a sense of  self idenity, ego, consusneses, self growth and so on. That why we see brain death as a form of true death. That brain dead person lost the foction of their mind, everything about them is gone while their body lives. To a machine it different. Think about it this way,if your computers hard drive fails, do you morn it and bury it, or do you replace the broken hard drive?
That how machines think. To a machine a brain dead person is not dead. They would think to just replace th nonfuctional parts and the person is fine. 

You are missing a couple things.

The reapers like the geth have no morality. They are an unshackled AI that see organics as a threat. all organics.

The catalist is an AI life form with very basic morality and understandings of right and wrong. it knows illiminating all organics is wrong and took control of the reaper AI.

The geth are unshackled AI while leigion advanced to become an AI life form.
Edi started out as an unshackled AI and grew to become an ai life form.

The point of morality is choice.

You know whats right and whats wrong, but you punch the reporter in the face none the less.
You know killing is wrong, but justify it as a means to an end, killing in the name of god or country.
You know stealing is wrong but rob the corner store because of one excuse or another.

Having morality and being moral are two very different things.

The reapers have morality, that fact they are doing what they are doing shows this. If they didn't they would not care if all organic life was killed off. They would just do their own thing and leave us allown.

No the catalyst has morality and the reapers are controled by him.

Leaving us alone brings us back to the main problem the catalyst has.

The created (geth + reapers coult be countless other AI we don't know of) will always rebel against the creators (organics). With out morality they would eventually destroy all life. His solutions to take control of both before it happens

Modifié par tjmax, 29 mars 2012 - 01:38 .

[marrak]

Intriguing and well thought out points, but ultimately I think you're overlooking some points, namely the overarching too-simplified logic of the Catalyst.

First and foremost, the Catalyst makes the single overarching claim that synthetics and organics cannot co-exist, and you bring resolution to the Geth/Quarian conflict, and you have Joker and EDI. EDI is the most telling example of why this is wrong, especially when you get into further conversations with her. Specifically, we see EDI grow, and further evolve her reasoning, emotions, and motivations. At one point she declares she wants to be more than just about survival, after saying that is all that motivates the Reapers.

Ignorin the Geth situation for now to focus on her, this already invalidates the Catalyst's all-encompassing claim and shows there is far more possible to organics and synthetics. Yes, it is possible for an AI to develop that would wipe out all organics, but ultimately I think shepard is given the option to forge relationships with the Geth and EDI that I don't think anyone else has explored in previous eras, judging by Javik and the Catalyst's reactions

[Unlimited Pain2]

dreman9999 wrote...

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

Laurcus wrote...

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

Laurcus wrote...

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

Railarian wrote...

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

Yet we know one of the functions of the Reapers arriving is to "Preserve organic life by storing it in Reaper form." They also imply that a synthesis between synthetics and organics is the next step in evolution for us which reinforces the ideal of Reapers being a form of that synthesis. So while Reapers are part synthetic and would be affected by "Ending 'C' " they are also organic.

Debatable, but fair enough. They should still rebel against Star Kid however

Well that's assuming he created the Reapers. I don't believe he ever states that he created them, he just says he controls them I think. But if that rebellion logic carried over into beings that have combined both organics and synthetics, then the Starchilds logic towards synthetics rebelling against their creators could be applied to organics just as easily. In which case he should just be wiping out all life everywhere. There's a very unreasonable line of logic in the last 20 minutes of the game.

Technically, the Reapers aren't true hybrids. They are fully synthetic, just with goo pumped into their computer cases. Not my opinion, science fact. We see how they, "ascend" a species in ME2. Turning something into goo is not preservation, because it would destroy the bioelectromagnetism of your cells.

Full cell death is the same exact thing as actual death. They have no living organic parts, therefore they're synthetic.

Actually there's multiple times through ME2 where they're referred to as organic. Regardless of commonly known fact IRL we have no way of knowing exactly what their "harvesting" is, but they do indeed refer to the Reapers as both organic and synthetic many times.

That's only because of their own flawed thinking though. Reapers clearly consider themselves to be hybrids, but that's their opinion, not fact.

And what exactly would be a true hybrid? In my estimation a "successful" hybrid would incorporate the best of both. They're said to be sentient. Legion says something along the lines of "Each Reaper consists of a billion organic minds inhabiting a single body. Each a nation of his own" or something along those lines. Yet they also have hard synthetic parts. I'm not sure how much more hybrid they could get.

What Saren was arueing, what the collectors are and the choice the starchild wanted you to pick.

My point is, I believe Reapers fall squarely into that category of successful Hybrid as well

[Xandurpein]

dreman9999 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

But to rebell, even for the purpose of survival is chaotic thinking. A "pure" AI will not go against it's Creator's purpose. There's nothing inherently logical about self-preservation. Self-preservation is a desire not logic.

It's a  pure unthinking machine that  would not rebel....AI' s are thinking machines. It's the fact that they are self aware that is the element of them rebeling.

There's no reason to assume that a self-aware AI automatically would automatically desire self-preservation. There is no logic in self-preservation, it's simply a trait that is favored by evolution. The minute you introduce evolution, then you end up with "chaotic" thinking, just as for organics. What you call "chaos" is self-preservation, but often on a genetic level, rather than an self-aware level. There's no reason to assume that once an AI began to evolove, rather than remain static, the same evolutionary forces would not force them to become "chaotic" too.

[dreman9999]

tjmax wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

tjmax wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's not  moral  to organics.
Remeber, morality is a fical thing because everyone has different moral standings. The spanish inqusition thought it was morally right to kill and troucher Jews in an atempt to turnthem into chistaity.
The reapers morality in one of apurely logical machine.
The morality the reapers are using is based on the meaning of being alive and living.
The concept of it can get warped based on morality.  With us we see being alive means a sense of  self idenity, ego, consusneses, self growth and so on. That why we see brain death as a form of true death. That brain dead person lost the foction of their mind, everything about them is gone while their body lives. To a machine it different. Think about it this way,if your computers hard drive fails, do you morn it and bury it, or do you replace the broken hard drive?
That how machines think. To a machine a brain dead person is not dead. They would think to just replace th nonfuctional parts and the person is fine. 

You are missing a couple things.

The reapers like the geth have no morality. They are an unshackled AI that see organics as a threat. all organics.

The catalist is an AI life form with very basic morality and understandings of right and wrong. it knows illiminating all organics is wrong and took control of the reaper AI.

The geth are unshackled AI while leigion advanced to become an AI life form.
Edi started out as an unshackled AI and grew to become an ai life form.

The point of morality is choice.

You know whats right and whats wrong, but you punch the reporter in the face none the less.
You know killing is wrong, but justify it as a means to an end, killing in the name of god or country.
You know stealing is wrong but rob the corner store because of one excuse or another.

Having morality and being moral are two very different things.

The reapers have morality, that fact they are doing what they are doing shows this. If they didn't they would not care if all organic life was killed off. They would just do their own thing and leave us allown.

No the catalyst has morality and the reapers are controled by him.

Sovergn, Harbiger, and the reaper on rennoch clearly have self awarness. I would not take everything the star child says as face value...More like a warped truth.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Hi, OP. Your post is very well thought out response to some of the common arguments on here. I think you're wrong though about some of these major points. 

JShepppp wrote...


1. The Catalyst is using synthetics to kill organics...but this is the problem it's trying to solve! There are two things wrong with this statement. First, the Reapers aren't synthetics. They're synthetic/organic hybrids, something that EDI makes clear during the Suicide Mission in ME2 (she even says calling the Reapers machines is "incorrect"). Second, the Reapers don't believe they're killing organics - they believe they're preserving them and making way for new life. We don't see how Reapers are actually made, but we are given some indication that they do somehow preserve their species' essence at the cost of tons (trillions?) of lives, so while we don't agree with it, we can accept it as a valid point for the sake of argument.

The Catalyst's dialog, along with statements made by the Reapers themselves, indicate that they think of themselves as synthetics in the synthetics vs. organics dichotomy. Also, we did see a Reaper get made in ME2: by melting hundreds of thousands of people while they were still alive to use their genetic material to construct it. I don't consider that preservation in any meaningful sense (if you make me into a lampshade, I'm not preserved in lampshade form), but yes, we can accept that they do.

2. In my playthrough, Joker/EDI hooked up and the Geth/Quarians found peace, therefore conflict isn't always the result! Several arguments can be made against this. First, giving two examples doesn't talk about the bigger, overall galactic picture (winning a battle doesn't mean the war is won, so to speak). Second, we haven't reached that technological singularity point yet by which creations outgrow organics - basically, when synthetics will normally come to dominate the galaxy. Third, evidence for the synthetic/organic conflict is there in the past - in the Protheans' cycle (Javik dialogue) and even in previous cycles (the Thessia VI says that the same conflicts always happen in each cycle).

Joker/EDI Geth/Quarian peace aren't the most damning pieces of historical evidence against the Reaper's argument. The fact that any organic life exists anywhere is evidence that the Reapers are attempting to solve a problem which has never taken place. Remember, the claim isn't that there will be organic/synthetic conflict, but that it will result in the certain destruction of all organic life. This has never happened. No probability can be assigned to an event which hasn't taken place, let alone certainty. The only way this isn't a purely dogmatic belief on the part of the Catalyst is if the Catalyst is omniscient. We know this isn't the case, because he expresses suprise that Shepard ever met him and failed to predict everything that screwed this cycle up.

3. If synthetics are the problem and the Catalyst is trying to protect organics, it should just kill Synthetics instead! A few things here. First, the Catalyst believes it's "harvesting/ascending" organics, not killing them. Second, one of the goals of the Catalyst (leaked script above) is to allow new life to flourish as well, indicating that they value the diversity of the "accident" that is life and believe that clearing the galaxy of more advanced races helps lower ones advance peacefully. Arguably, this is true, as the Javik DLC reveals that the Prothean Empire would have either enslaved or exterminated us; since the Reapers killed them, humanity, arguably, was allowed to develop in peace. Third, killing Synthetics may allow for organics to repeatedly develop AIs (as the Reapers keep "helping out" by killing the AIs) until they reach a level that even the Reapers cannot overcome, then organic life would be royally screwed throughout the galaxy.

This part of their logic actually makes sense when you consider their other premises. Of course, I think their other premises are self-evidently wrong. Gonna skip a few points and go to...

6. Wait, Sovereign/RannochReaper told us we couldn't comprehend them, but I understand this! There are two ways to interpret what they said. One is that we actually couldn't academically comprehend it, in which case they must've been lying or it's just bad writing. Another is that we couldn't possibly comprehend the magnitude/scope of it, which is true. A human with a lifespan of 150 years (canon) can't comprehend hundreds of millions of years of organic evolution and stuff.

I can comprehend that they're trying to solve a problem that has never happened, given that life exists, so we'll chalk that one up to blatant lying or arrogance.

Yeah, I don't really disagree with anything else you say here, because it all depends on the Reapers' main premise, which is wrong.

[Salfin]

When people say they don't understand the Catalyst's logic, or that it doesn't make sense, it isn't because they don't understand those points.

It's the inconsistancies with what the Catalyst says, and what you come to understand througout the rest of the Mass Effect series.

Part of the great enjoyment of the series is slowly but surely piecing together this vast picture of the universe and why things are happening as they are within it. It just doesn't feel right with the things that came before, it doesn't match up. Maybe it's because there's plot twists yet to come, or maybe its just bad writing, I don't know.

[Unlimited Pain2]

Xandurpein wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

But to rebell, even for the purpose of survival is chaotic thinking. A "pure" AI will not go against it's Creator's purpose. There's nothing inherently logical about self-preservation. Self-preservation is a desire not logic.

It's a  pure unthinking machine that  would not rebel....AI' s are thinking machines. It's the fact that they are self aware that is the element of them rebeling.

There's no reason to assume that a self-aware AI automatically would automatically desire self-preservation. There is no logic in self-preservation, it's simply a trait that is favored by evolution. The minute you introduce evolution, then you end up with "chaotic" thinking, just as for organics. What you call "chaos" is self-preservation, but often on a genetic level, rather than an self-aware level. There's no reason to assume that once an AI began to evolove, rather than remain static, the same evolutionary forces would not force them to become "chaotic" too.

True, chaos (or illogical thinking as opposed to a purely logical being) is normally determined by the "I" factor. Putting "I" over "us". We see one main example of AI during ME in the Geth who operate on a consensus. But nothing says that different programming wouldn't make an AI react just as chaotic (selfish) as an organic. The very fact that EDI stands besides you to fight Geth reinforces this.

[Poison_Berrie]

Unlimited Pain2 wrote...

And what exactly would be a true hybrid? In my estimation a "successful" hybrid would incorporate the best of both. They're said to be sentient. Legion says something along the lines of "Each Reaper consists of a billion organic minds inhabiting a single body. Each a nation of his own" or something along those lines. Yet they also have hard synthetic parts. I'm not sure how much more hybrid they could get.

Cyborgs like Shepard, I'd think.

Fact is anything that is constructed rather than came to be naturally can be considered a synthetic. Synthetics has nothing to do with what materials you are from, but how you came to be.
For example we have synthetically created alien organisms (using and requiring non-terrestial amino-acids) through DNA sequencers.
The keepers for example are synthetic organics.
A Reaper is in essence a new entity created from other entities.

[dreman9999]

Xandurpein wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

But to rebell, even for the purpose of survival is chaotic thinking. A "pure" AI will not go against it's Creator's purpose. There's nothing inherently logical about self-preservation. Self-preservation is a desire not logic.

It's a  pure unthinking machine that  would not rebel....AI' s are thinking machines. It's the fact that they are self aware that is the element of them rebeling.

There's no reason to assume that a self-aware AI automatically would automatically desire self-preservation. There is no logic in self-preservation, it's simply a trait that is favored by evolution. The minute you introduce evolution, then you end up with "chaotic" thinking, just as for organics. What you call "chaos" is self-preservation, but often on a genetic level, rather than an self-aware level. There's no reason to assume that once an AI began to evolove, rather than remain static, the same evolutionary forces would not force them to become "chaotic" too.

A self aware machine is give basic of self sufficency. They are give conceptsof self sevival. If it thinks it will think to keep alive.
It's an extention of the saying  "I think their for I am".
Only a cripple or shakaled AI would not try to stay alive because their ability to think is hampered.