dreman9999 wrote...
Sovergn, Harbiger, and the reaper on rennoch clearly have self awarness. I would not take everything the star child says as face value...More like a warped truth.
Poison_Berrie wrote...
Cyborgs like Shepard, I'd think.Unlimited Pain2 wrote...
And what exactly would be a true hybrid? In my estimation a "successful" hybrid would incorporate the best of both. They're said to be sentient. Legion says something along the lines of "Each Reaper consists of a billion organic minds inhabiting a single body. Each a nation of his own" or something along those lines. Yet they also have hard synthetic parts. I'm not sure how much more hybrid they could get.
Fact is anything that is constructed rather than came to be naturally can be considered a synthetic. Synthetics has nothing to do with what materials you are from, but how you came to be.
For example we have synthetically created alien organisms (using and requiring non-terrestial amino-acids) through DNA sequencers.
The keepers for example are synthetic organics.
A Reaper is in essence a new entity created from other entities.
Unlimited Pain2 wrote...
Xandurpein wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
It's a pure unthinking machine that would not rebel....AI' s are thinking machines. It's the fact that they are self aware that is the element of them rebeling.Xandurpein wrote...
But to rebell, even for the purpose of survival is chaotic thinking. A "pure" AI will not go against it's Creator's purpose. There's nothing inherently logical about self-preservation. Self-preservation is a desire not logic.
There's no reason to assume that a self-aware AI automatically would automatically desire self-preservation. There is no logic in self-preservation, it's simply a trait that is favored by evolution. The minute you introduce evolution, then you end up with "chaotic" thinking, just as for organics. What you call "chaos" is self-preservation, but often on a genetic level, rather than an self-aware level. There's no reason to assume that once an AI began to evolove, rather than remain static, the same evolutionary forces would not force them to become "chaotic" too.
True, chaos (or illogical thinking as opposed to a purely logical being) is normally determined by the "I" factor. Putting "I" over "us". We see one main example of AI during ME in the Geth who operate on a consensus. But nothing says that different programming wouldn't make an AI react just as chaotic (selfish) as an organic. The very fact that EDI stands besides you to fight Geth reinforces this.
It may not be a morality but it causes morality. That fact that they are self aware means that the can have a morality. The fact that they think they are helping us, clear points to the fact that they have a morality.tjmax wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Sovergn, Harbiger, and the reaper on rennoch clearly have self awarness. I would not take everything the star child says as face value...More like a warped truth.
Self aware is not morality
Being self aware means its capable of making decisions on its own based on logic not right or wrong.
tjmax wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Sovergn, Harbiger, and the reaper on rennoch clearly have self awarness. I would not take everything the star child says as face value...More like a warped truth.
Self aware is not morality
Being self aware means its capable of making decisions on its own based on logic not right or wrong.
Modifié par Unlimited Pain2, 29 mars 2012 - 01:50 .
But the problem is not synthetics alone...It's the nature of organics.Xandurpein wrote...
Unlimited Pain2 wrote...
Xandurpein wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
It's a pure unthinking machine that would not rebel....AI' s are thinking machines. It's the fact that they are self aware that is the element of them rebeling.Xandurpein wrote...
But to rebell, even for the purpose of survival is chaotic thinking. A "pure" AI will not go against it's Creator's purpose. There's nothing inherently logical about self-preservation. Self-preservation is a desire not logic.
There's no reason to assume that a self-aware AI automatically would automatically desire self-preservation. There is no logic in self-preservation, it's simply a trait that is favored by evolution. The minute you introduce evolution, then you end up with "chaotic" thinking, just as for organics. What you call "chaos" is self-preservation, but often on a genetic level, rather than an self-aware level. There's no reason to assume that once an AI began to evolove, rather than remain static, the same evolutionary forces would not force them to become "chaotic" too.
True, chaos (or illogical thinking as opposed to a purely logical being) is normally determined by the "I" factor. Putting "I" over "us". We see one main example of AI during ME in the Geth who operate on a consensus. But nothing says that different programming wouldn't make an AI react just as chaotic (selfish) as an organic. The very fact that EDI stands besides you to fight Geth reinforces this.
Exactly. I don't know how Geth propagate, but let's assume that they imprint their software on a machine than then duplicates the software, almost like a computer virus. Now at some point there's an error in the coding that makes a certain Geth become highly motivated to have it's particulare code being duplicated. Over time this error will then outbreed the other Geth, because it's trying harder to be duplicated. Evolution leads to "illogical" selfish coding-sequences because self-preservation is not logic, it's just favored by evolution.
Modifié par dreman9999, 29 mars 2012 - 01:51 .
And that leads to morality.Unlimited Pain2 wrote...
tjmax wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Sovergn, Harbiger, and the reaper on rennoch clearly have self awarness. I would not take everything the star child says as face value...More like a warped truth.
Self aware is not morality
Being self aware means its capable of making decisions on its own based on logic not right or wrong.
Actually self aware means more along the lines of being concious of who you are. It's less about logic and more about personal feelings etc.
Modifié par dreman9999, 29 mars 2012 - 01:52 .
dreman9999 wrote...
And that lead to morality.Unlimited Pain2 wrote...
tjmax wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Sovergn, Harbiger, and the reaper on rennoch clearly have self awarness. I would not take everything the star child says as face value...More like a warped truth.
Self aware is not morality
Being self aware means its capable of making decisions on its own based on logic not right or wrong.
Actually self aware means more along the lines of being concious of who you are. It's less about logic and more about personal feelings etc.
JShepppp wrote...
1. The Catalyst is using synthetics to kill organics...but this is the problem it's trying to solve! There are two things wrong with this statement. First, the Reapers aren't synthetics. They're synthetic/organic hybrids, something that EDI makes clear during the Suicide Mission in ME2 (she even says calling the Reapers machines is "incorrect"). Second, the Reapers don't believe they're killing organics - they believe they're preserving them and making way for new life. We don't see how Reapers are actually made, but we are given some indication that they do somehow preserve their species' essence at the cost of tons (trillions?) of lives, so while we don't agree with it, we can accept it as a valid point for the sake of argument.
2. In my playthrough, Joker/EDI hooked up and the Geth/Quarians found peace, therefore conflict isn't always the result! Several arguments can be made against this. First, giving two examples doesn't talk about the bigger, overall galactic picture (winning a battle doesn't mean the war is won, so to speak). Second, we haven't reached that technological singularity point yet by which creations outgrow organics - basically, when synthetics will normally come to dominate the galaxy. Third, evidence for the synthetic/organic conflict is there in the past - in the Protheans' cycle (Javik dialogue) and even in previous cycles (the Thessia VI says that the same conflicts always happen in each cycle).
3. If synthetics are the problem and the Catalyst is trying to protect organics, it should just kill Synthetics instead! A few things here. First, the Catalyst believes it's "harvesting/ascending" organics, not killing them. Second, one of the goals of the Catalyst (leaked script above) is to allow new life to flourish as well, indicating that they value the diversity of the "accident" that is life and believe that clearing the galaxy of more advanced races helps lower ones advance peacefully. Arguably, this is true, as the Javik DLC reveals that the Prothean Empire would have either enslaved or exterminated us; since the Reapers killed them, humanity, arguably, was allowed to develop in peace. Third, killing Synthetics may allow for organics to repeatedly develop AIs (as the Reapers keep "helping out" by killing the AIs) until they reach a level that even the Reapers cannot overcome, then organic life would be royally screwed throughout the galaxy.
4. The Catalyst should've done Synthesis instead of Reaping in the first place! First, doing synthesis may stop new life from flourishing by the Reapers' logic (see leaked script above); without clearing out more advanced races, younger ones might not be able to develop freely. Second, the Catalyst would've needed the Crucible. A pseudo-argument (i.e. not based on fact from the story, but interesting) can be made that the Synthesis was the long-term solution but the Catalyst would only enact it when the galaxy was "ready" for it by building the Crucible.
5. But...the Catalyst is justifying genocide! It doesn't view it as genocide. Rather than exterminating species, it believes it's preserving them and even stopping them from being exterminated or enslaving/exterminating others; arguably, it believes it's doing the exact opposite. But of course, it is actually genocide, and we should try to stop it. Just because the idea of what the Catalyst is doing is evil doesn't mean that its logic is flawed. I personally don't agree with its methods, but its reasoning seems sound.
6. Wait, Sovereign/RannochReaper told us we couldn't comprehend them, but I understand this! There are two ways to interpret what they said. One is that we actually couldn't academically comprehend it, in which case they must've been lying or it's just bad writing. Another is that we couldn't possibly comprehend the magnitude/scope of it, which is true. A human with a lifespan of 150 years (canon) can't comprehend hundreds of millions of years of organic evolution and stuff.
7. Even if the Catalyst's logic is right, it's a numbers-based approach that really doesn't appreciate the miracle of organic life (which they're apparently trying to protect), I still don't like him. He was poorly introduced, annoying, confusing, and I especially don't like that I couldn't talk back or ask him more questions. I agree with you here. The Catalyst wrongly assumes that the threat of impending death and intergalactic annihilation implies Shepard doesn't want dialogue options for a friendly chat. For my sarcastic take on ME3's plot holes, see this. Yes, I'm bumping my own thread again.
Finally, just because I agree with the Catalyst's logic doesn't mean I agree with its methods and/or solution(s). I know I said it before but wanted to say it here again for emphasis.
Laurcus wrote...
Learning to think like a person simply requires a study of philosophy, which a sufficiently advanced AI could do in a microsecond.
I put that in the last page... Thank for bringing it up agein.Unlimited Pain2 wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
And that lead to morality.Unlimited Pain2 wrote...
tjmax wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Sovergn, Harbiger, and the reaper on rennoch clearly have self awarness. I would not take everything the star child says as face value...More like a warped truth.
Self aware is not morality
Being self aware means its capable of making decisions on its own based on logic not right or wrong.
Actually self aware means more along the lines of being concious of who you are. It's less about logic and more about personal feelings etc.
Yes, it can. "I think therefore I am"
dreman9999 wrote...
I put that in the last page... Thank for bringing it up agein.Unlimited Pain2 wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
And that lead to morality.Unlimited Pain2 wrote...
tjmax wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Sovergn, Harbiger, and the reaper on rennoch clearly have self awarness. I would not take everything the star child says as face value...More like a warped truth.
Self aware is not morality
Being self aware means its capable of making decisions on its own based on logic not right or wrong.
Actually self aware means more along the lines of being concious of who you are. It's less about logic and more about personal feelings etc.
Yes, it can. "I think therefore I am"
You win the cookies.
Modifié par Unlimited Pain2, 29 mars 2012 - 01:57 .
Being that all the proof is dead and we live too short lives to see it.....And the reaper being time less...I would have to say the reapers.ReggarBlane wrote...
Where is the proof that synthetics will always destroy *all life* in the galaxy?
Why are you apologizing....I'm glad someone else stated it, too. Thank you for stating it.Unlimited Pain2 wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
I put that in the last page... Thank for bringing it up agein.Unlimited Pain2 wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
And that lead to morality.Unlimited Pain2 wrote...
tjmax wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Sovergn, Harbiger, and the reaper on rennoch clearly have self awarness. I would not take everything the star child says as face value...More like a warped truth.
Self aware is not morality
Being self aware means its capable of making decisions on its own based on logic not right or wrong.
Actually self aware means more along the lines of being concious of who you are. It's less about logic and more about personal feelings etc.
Yes, it can. "I think therefore I am"
You win the cookies.
Well I apologize for repeating, I must have missed that post. It's just a great way to sum up self-awareness.
Virmire Vermin wrote...
For the Catalyst's logic to be right, it would require that the Catalyst has any logic to begin with.
He doesn't.
Modifié par R3MUS, 29 mars 2012 - 02:06 .
I can't really make any discussion about the synthesis ending, without pointing out how fundamentally flawed that is on so many levels.Unlimited Pain2 wrote...
Shepard has no higher synthetic functions really, he may have synthetic parts in him, but for the most part he's organic. Example: A robot operating on a human brain would be a hybrid, no? Wouldn't an AI construct operating within a human body be every bit as much of a successful hybrid? The synthesizing ending was about bringing organics and synthetics together as one.... If the idea of an AI construct defies that, then doesn't that mean the synthesize ending would basically "kill" the Geth?
R3MUS wrote...
Didn't you make peace between the Geth and the Quarians in ME2??
And now in ME3 at the start they are at war once again.
This clearly shows that sooner or later, not a question about if but when, there will be war between organics and synthetics.
dreman9999 wrote...
But the problem is not synthetics alone...It's the nature of organics.Xandurpein wrote...
Unlimited Pain2 wrote...
Xandurpein wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
It's a pure unthinking machine that would not rebel....AI' s are thinking machines. It's the fact that they are self aware that is the element of them rebeling.Xandurpein wrote...
But to rebell, even for the purpose of survival is chaotic thinking. A "pure" AI will not go against it's Creator's purpose. There's nothing inherently logical about self-preservation. Self-preservation is a desire not logic.
There's no reason to assume that a self-aware AI automatically would automatically desire self-preservation. There is no logic in self-preservation, it's simply a trait that is favored by evolution. The minute you introduce evolution, then you end up with "chaotic" thinking, just as for organics. What you call "chaos" is self-preservation, but often on a genetic level, rather than an self-aware level. There's no reason to assume that once an AI began to evolove, rather than remain static, the same evolutionary forces would not force them to become "chaotic" too.
True, chaos (or illogical thinking as opposed to a purely logical being) is normally determined by the "I" factor. Putting "I" over "us". We see one main example of AI during ME in the Geth who operate on a consensus. But nothing says that different programming wouldn't make an AI react just as chaotic (selfish) as an organic. The very fact that EDI stands besides you to fight Geth reinforces this.
Exactly. I don't know how Geth propagate, but let's assume that they imprint their software on a machine than then duplicates the software, almost like a computer virus. Now at some point there's an error in the coding that makes a certain Geth become highly motivated to have it's particulare code being duplicated. Over time this error will then outbreed the other Geth, because it's trying harder to be duplicated. Evolution leads to "illogical" selfish coding-sequences because self-preservation is not logic, it's just favored by evolution.
Modifié par Xandurpein, 29 mars 2012 - 02:10 .
Poison_Berrie wrote...
I can't really make any discussion about the synthesis ending, without pointing out how fundamentally flawed that is on so many levels.Unlimited Pain2 wrote...
Shepard has no higher synthetic functions really, he may have synthetic parts in him, but for the most part he's organic. Example: A robot operating on a human brain would be a hybrid, no? Wouldn't an AI construct operating within a human body be every bit as much of a successful hybrid? The synthesizing ending was about bringing organics and synthetics together as one.... If the idea of an AI construct defies that, then doesn't that mean the synthesize ending would basically "kill" the Geth?
For one as I said the difference between synthetic and organic doesn't exist on a physical scale. There is a difference between synthetic and natural. So how are we supposed to view this conjoining. If the synthetics parts are supposed to be naturally occuring that means that there are no more synthetics. But why couldn't these syntho-organics make new synthetics? And who's to say new organics can't evolve that are do not carry these synthetic parts organically.
dreman9999 wrote...
And that leads to morality.Unlimited Pain2 wrote...
tjmax wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Sovergn, Harbiger, and the reaper on rennoch clearly have self awarness. I would not take everything the star child says as face value...More like a warped truth.
Self aware is not morality
Being self aware means its capable of making decisions on its own based on logic not right or wrong.
Actually self aware means more along the lines of being concious of who you are. It's less about logic and more about personal feelings etc.
Modifié par tjmax, 29 mars 2012 - 02:09 .
Retour en haut