213 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaktathi]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

OK, fair enough, except for one detail: Such a strategy was never mentioned in the game - and we see turian ships ramming Sovereign in ME1, so it's obvious that they will have considered ramming at relativistic speed and rejected it for some reason. Thus it's a plot hole in ME1, rather than ME3 and conventional victory remains impossible.

Well, in ME1 it was more Soveriegn ramming the Turian ships that couldn't/didn't get out of the way.


That said, it's also possible that, like many/most other things of this nature, the people scripting these events just aren't aware of the energies involved in such collisions or disregard them to get the visual effect they want.

Eyeofanger wrote...

I am curious would the reapers have a harder time if the alliance would mass produce ships exactly like the normandy sr2

IIRC the Normandy was incredibly resource intensive, an admiral in ME1 claiming that 12,000 fighters could have been produced for what the Normandy cost to make.

Modifié par Vaktathi, 29 mars 2012 - 04:12 .

[DeinonSlayer]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

OK, fair enough, except for one detail: Such a strategy was never mentioned in the game - and we see turian ships ramming Sovereign in ME1, so it's obvious that they will have considered ramming at relativistic speed and rejected it for some reason. Thus it's a plot hole in ME1, rather than ME3 and conventional victory remains impossible.

Sovereign plowed through that cruiser at sublight. As far as I know, this tactic was never actually attempted in-game. The math says it would work - if dreadnaughts firing projectiles with far less kinetic potential can take a reaper down when working in tandem with sufficient numbers, this should work as well.

[Orthodox Infidel]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

The problem is that once you think of the Reapers as just advanced starships, conventional warfare rules apply. You just need numbers or better tactics.

Numbers we have.

No, we don't. There are likely tens of thousands of Reapers or more. There might be several hundred or maybe a few thousand ships in the galaxy.

You people need to just accept that this conflict was set up to be resolved with a plot device. I'm suprised so many of you are Bioware fans, where every major conflict in every game is resolved by collecting and using plot devices, but ME3 comes along and OH NO WE CAN WIN CONVENTIONALLY BECAUSE WE DON'T LIKE THE ENDING!

[DeinonSlayer]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Numbers we have.

No, we don't. There are likely tens of thousands of Reapers or more. There might be several hundred or maybe a few thousand ships in the galaxy.

You people need to just accept that this conflict was set up to be resolved with a plot device. I'm suprised so many of you are Bioware fans, where every major conflict in every game is resolved by collecting and using plot devices, but ME3 comes along and OH NO WE CAN WIN CONVENTIONALLY BECAUSE WE DON'T LIKE THE ENDING!

Between the Quarians and Geth alone we have tens of thousands of ships. Lesser reapers can be, and are, defeated with conventional (even man-portable) weaponry. This is a tactic for use against their heavy-hitters.

The exact size of the Reaper fleet is never specified, but drastically understating our forces does nothing to strengthen your argument.

[Orthodox Infidel]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Numbers we have.

No, we don't. There are likely tens of thousands of Reapers or more. There might be several hundred or maybe a few thousand ships in the galaxy.

You people need to just accept that this conflict was set up to be resolved with a plot device. I'm suprised so many of you are Bioware fans, where every major conflict in every game is resolved by collecting and using plot devices, but ME3 comes along and OH NO WE CAN WIN CONVENTIONALLY BECAUSE WE DON'T LIKE THE ENDING!

Between the Quarians and Geth alone we have tens of thousands of ships. Lesser reapers can be, and are, defeated with conventional (even man-portable) weaponry. This is a tactic for use against their heavy-hitters.

The exact size of the Reaper fleet is never specified, but drastically understating our forces does nothing to strengthen your argument.

No, I doubt there are tens of thousands of ships, even with the Geth and Quarians. It's explictly stated that the most dreadnaughts there could be in the game are something around 80 tops before the war starts. I don't think it's explicitly stated how many ships of other weights exist, but if there were "thousands" or "tens of thousands" then nobody would bother building dreadnaughts in the first place; they just wouldn't need them and they're limited by treaty.

And those lesser reapers are all attacked under special circumstances; one of which required the entire Quarian fleet that you're proposing be sacrificed at FTL speeds to destroy larger reapers. You can blow up every big Reaper in the galaxy with the fleet you need to blow up every lesser Reaper in the galaxy.

[PsyrenY]

If conventional victory was an option you'd think Hackett and Victus would agree. But I guess they don't know what they're doing. Should have read Bioware forums, the noobs.

[DRUNK_CANADIAN]

I remember Sovereign smashing through a bunch of ships in space....

But that being said if you could come out of the relay somehow into the reapers in a suicide style attack, perhaps you could win, but again it would be near impossible to calculate a FTL jump with moving targets and so much room for error.

[chester013]

The space battle aside, with all the ground forces you can gather I was just surprised that the ground offensive seemed to go so badly. Seriously we had human marines, spec ops units, Asari commandos, Krogan, Turians, STG units the Geth. Is that not enough to kick the crap out of the brainless meat piles?

[DeinonSlayer]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

No, I doubt there are tens of thousands of ships, even with the Geth and Quarians. It's explictly stated that the most dreadnaughts there could be in the game are something around 80 tops before the war starts. I don't think it's explicitly stated how many ships of other weights exist, but if there were "thousands" or "tens of thousands" then nobody would bother building dreadnaughts in the first place; they just wouldn't need them and they're limited by treaty.

And those lesser reapers are all attacked under special circumstances; one of which required the entire Quarian fleet that you're proposing be sacrificed at FTL speeds to destroy larger reapers. You can blow up every big Reaper in the galaxy with the fleet you need to blow up every lesser Reaper in the galaxy.

Yeah, Farixen limits dreadnaught production, but the Migrant Fleet contains over 50,000 ships. The codex description for the planet neighboring Haestrom in ME2 says there are thousands of Geth ships in that system alone. I don't know exactly how many ships we have, but it's substantial.

I'm not saying the sacrifice of big ships would be wholly necessary. We're told that four dreadnaughts firing twenty-kilo slugs can take down a Sovereign-class Reaper. By my math, a single unmanned shuttle at FTL speeds could do the same. Throwing larger ships at them would be possible, but with massive overkill.

[Vaktathi]

Optimystic_X wrote...

If conventional victory was an option you'd think Hackett and Victus would agree. But I guess they don't know what they're doing. Should have read Bioware forums, the noobs.

There's a certain suspension of disbelief/reality that must take place for stories like this to work. If relativistic weaponry were widely used, it'd make most Sci-Fi wars rather pointless and very uncinematic as fleets are destroyed at distances of tens and hundreds of thousands of kilometers apart and worlds can be destroyed as one ship sails through a system tossing ferrous slugs at a high fraction of light speed in a single pass. Kinda makes for poor epic stories.

[Hellfire257]

We all saw how those Thanix cannons ripped that Collector cruiser a new one in ME2. I think it is safe to say that they were using Reaper tech too. The technology for those came from 1 destroyed Reaper. With many more destroyed Repears, the possibly for adapting more of their tech against them is greater.

The Turians were putting up the best defence against the Reapers, and the Thanix cannon was their invention.

I can't remember where, but somewhere in the galaxy there's a planet that had a particle accelerator that encompassed the entire planet. The Reapers left the Asari forces stationed nearby alone and went straight after the accelerator. They were clearly scared ****less of it.

I think the Reapers could be defeated, but it would end up being a pyrrhic victory.

[Arkitekt]

What the hell? This thread again?!?!?

After debunking n threads of this sort, I'm done. Someone else do this for me.

[luzburg]

using suicide ships is considered unconventional and gurilla tacticst. i think there is a codex entry that says that even without autopilot ftl tecnolegy will automaticly bypass objects in the way

but you are right the everest dreadnaught is quite powerfull and might ass kick a reaper dreadnaught if it fires first ant it seems that the reapers suck at aming anyway. and the reast of the fleet has thanix cannons and that cannon took out a reaper tech (collector ship) with two shots so i belvie conventional warfare can sucseed and the cruisble is a valuble distraction

think about it the reapers always had to divide to conquer and rely on the citadel suprise to win before so facing a united galaxy is their doom anyway.
the organics are infact the superior force even if the reapers are technolagy superior

and why not produce rocket propelled tshar bombs and use that against them.
the tshar blast itself is actualy mutch larger than a sovergin class reaper

[Vaktathi]

Arkitekt wrote...

What the hell? This thread again?!?!?

After debunking n threads of this sort, I'm done. Someone else do this for me.

That was a useful, informative, and contributory post worthy of everyone's time

[The Unfallen]

The Crucible was, ergo, pointless and unneeded.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Vaktathi wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

What the hell? This thread again?!?!?

After debunking n threads of this sort, I'm done. Someone else do this for me.

That was a useful, informative, and contributory post worthy of everyone's time

To be fair, this is like the 30th "conventional victory" thread in the past two weeks. I will credit the OP with at least adding a new idea to the conversation of using FTL ships as weapons.

[addiction21]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

What the hell? This thread again?!?!?

After debunking n threads of this sort, I'm done. Someone else do this for me.

That was a useful, informative, and contributory post worthy of everyone's time

To be fair, this is like the 30th "conventional victory" thread in the past two weeks. I will credit the OP with at least adding a new idea to the conversation of using FTL ships as weapons.

The codex answers it just scroll down to desperate measures
http://masseffect.wi.../The_Reaper_War

I thought the same while playing untill I got to that codex.

[AlanC9]

It's a silly argument. If it was this easy how come nobody did it in any of the earlier cycles?

Or rather, if it's a plot hole then it's a hole in the entire damn series, not just ME3.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 mars 2012 - 05:14 .

[Foryou]

It would be easy...if the Reapers didn't destroy most of them

[AkiKishi]

That would have made a good sceene if the HQ had been based in Plymouth.

[AkiKishi]

Optimystic_X wrote...

If conventional victory was an option you'd think Hackett and Victus would agree. But I guess they don't know what they're doing. Should have read Bioware forums, the noobs.

According to the events in ME3 the Reapers are not that tough.

[RVallant]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

UnstableMongoose wrote...

ed. To address your additional point, it's stated in the codex that the Council races have indeed attempted to use ships in suicide ramming attacks, but FTL jumps can not be calculated accurately enough to ram a Reaper vessel.

And yet Dreadnaughts can accurately target vessels tens of thousands of kilometers away? These are the systems they depend on not to drop them in the middle of the nearest star. If this is true, it honestly sounds like a writing cop-out to discount an obvious solution, more than anything else. At the ranges seen in the final battle, I refuse to believe that no one would be able to pull it off.

Nah it's not a cop-out. It's tied into the technology. Basically the VI tech used for all ships is based on Prothean tech based on Reaper original tech (akin to the relays and citadel) that basically have failsafes implemented specifically preventing FTL-suicide runs.

In order to overcome that, they would have to re-write the entire VI and safety protocols of the techs that they haven't bothered investigating much (I think that's what the codex alludes to, I haven't read it since I played.)

Effectively it's yet another "We don't care for the tech cos y'know it works/the keepers do it for us" that ended up biting everyone in the arse.

[Faridle]

Why just not deploy an massive EMP strike against the reapers, electronics tend to not agree with EMP.
And also the Reapers did destroy any nuke they could find on earth, and nukes send out an EMP on strike.

Modifié par Faridle, 29 mars 2012 - 05:28 .

[RVallant]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

What the hell? This thread again?!?!?

After debunking n threads of this sort, I'm done. Someone else do this for me.

That was a useful, informative, and contributory post worthy of everyone's time

To be fair, this is like the 30th "conventional victory" thread in the past two weeks. I will credit the OP with at least adding a new idea to the conversation of using FTL ships as weapons.

To be fair, I now kind of understand why so may of the players of ME3 completely missed a lot of plot points, background info and lore presented in the entire trilogy. Particularly when they come up with these feeble theories.

[Father_Jerusalem]

"Meanwhile, starships are too costly to be used as projectiles, given that it would take many collisions to seriously harm a Reaper. Some armchair admirals suggest that a single starship traveling faster than light could obliterate a Reaper capital ship, but all ships based on mass effect technology possess hardwired safety features to prevent FTL collisions. If a ship's FTL plotter finds a significant object in the path of a planned jump, the FTL drive refuses to fire in the first place. This is not a perfect safety feature--the sensors can only scan for objects within a reasonable distance at light speed, and a navigator must plot he rest of the course--but it is so inherent to the FTL warm-up process that removing it is nigh impossible. Cynical intelligence analysts note that the secret of mass effect technology, including that safety system, has always been attributed to the Protheans--just as the mass relays were."

From the Codex.

Just sayin.