213 réponses à ce sujet

[Sangheili_1337]

chengthao wrote...

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

MrAtomica wrote...

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

"Meanwhile, starships are too costly to be used as projectiles, given that it would take many collisions to seriously harm a Reaper. Some armchair admirals suggest that a single starship traveling faster than light could obliterate a Reaper capital ship, but all ships based on mass effect technology possess hardwired safety features to prevent FTL collisions. If a ship's FTL plotter finds a significant object in the path of a planned jump, the FTL drive refuses to fire in the first place. This is not a perfect safety feature--the sensors can only scan for objects within a reasonable distance at light speed, and a navigator must plot he rest of the course--but it is so inherent to the FTL warm-up process that removing it is nigh impossible. Cynical intelligence analysts note that the secret of mass effect technology, including that safety system, has always been attributed to the Protheans--just as the mass relays were."

From the Codex.

Just sayin.

I think this answered the OP's idea perfectly.

Remove the sensors that detect obstructions. Simple.

You can do that, but that still doesnt answer the high cost of sacrificing ships in order to destroy reapers. Its not like they are capable of mass producing any more because the Reapers are destroying all of their infrastructure.

except they produced some super-"prothean" weapon in what seems to be in a span of a few months . . . i think they're manufacturing capabilities is just fine

The Crucible has been constructed over countless cycles. We dont know how close it was to completion but all evidence points to very close. A dreadnaught requires three years to build. Compare that with a object that is similar to the Citadel in size and its pretty obvious that the Citadel races does not have such insane manufacturing capability. This is also ignoring all of the planet summaries of Reaper presence destroying their manufacturing capabilities.

[Shadow Quickpaw]

One simple fact: Every Reaper destroyed before the re-taking of Earth fell by special circumstances/epic plot moments.
Sovereign: Saren's death took down it's sheilds and it STILL took the whole fifth fleet to kill it.
Human-Reaper: Was in a larvea form and basically had it's live support yanked before the station it was on blew up next to a black hole.
Tuchanka Destroyer: Cheated using Kalross.
Rannoch Destroyer: Hit a weak spot to begin with, then used the whole Quarian fleet in an orbital strike. Several times.

The Reapers have vastly superior tech at their disposal: nigh-on invincable sheilding, twice the speed of the fastest organic vessel, numbers in the hundreds of thousands, size, lazer weapons that can vaporize the toughest defenses, indoctrination (and all their husk shock-troops by extension), and the fact that they can predict the likely strategies of their enemies since the organics almost always use left-over Reaper Mass Effect technology as their foundation. Honestly I'm surprised the Crucible stayed a secret as long as it did.

[Shadow Quickpaw]

Sangheili_1337 wrote...


The Crucible has been constructed over countless cycles. We dont know how close it was to completion but all evidence points to very close. A dreadnaught requires three years to build. Compare that with a object that is similar to the Citadel in size and its pretty obvious that the Citadel races does not have such insane manufacturing capability. This is also ignoring all of the planet summaries of Reaper presence destroying their manufacturing capabilities.

According to the plot (supposedly), the crucible was never actually built before the Alliance got ahold of the schematics in the Mars archives. It's design was apparantly so simple that once the initial language and technical hurdles were overcome any civilization worth it's spit could build it.

Shep eventually got all the races together to work on it, and in the midst of the Reaper invasion people were scared and desperate enough that they probably worked faster and harder than they ever would have otherwise.

Not saying it makes any more sense, but that's how it's explained in-universe.

[chengthao]

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

chengthao wrote...

except they produced some super-"prothean" weapon in what seems to be in a span of a few months . . . i think they're manufacturing capabilities is just fine

The Crucible has been constructed over countless cycles. We dont know how close it was to completion but all evidence points to very close. A dreadnaught requires three years to build. Compare that with a object that is similar to the Citadel in size and its pretty obvious that the Citadel races does not have such insane manufacturing capability. This is also ignoring all of the planet summaries of Reaper presence destroying their manufacturing capabilities.

they started building it from scratch

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Crucible

no where is it mentioned that "our" cycle just finished building what the previous cycles started

they're manufacturing capabilities seems perfectly fine

*edit* - ninjad

Modifié par chengthao, 29 mars 2012 - 06:38 .

[Sangheili_1337]

chengthao wrote...

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

chengthao wrote...

except they produced some super-"prothean" weapon in what seems to be in a span of a few months . . . i think they're manufacturing capabilities is just fine

The Crucible has been constructed over countless cycles. We dont know how close it was to completion but all evidence points to very close. A dreadnaught requires three years to build. Compare that with a object that is similar to the Citadel in size and its pretty obvious that the Citadel races does not have such insane manufacturing capability. This is also ignoring all of the planet summaries of Reaper presence destroying their manufacturing capabilities.

they started building it from scratch

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Crucible

no where is it mentioned that "our" cycle just finished building what the previous cycles started

they're manufacturing capabilities seems perfectly fine

*edit* - ninjad

Looks like a giant inconsistency that they were able to start the whole thing from scratch when they never shown the capability to build on such a scale. Pretty bad writing.

[DeinonSlayer]

GODzilla_GSPB wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

redplague wrote...

A reaper vessel destroys those ships in one shot.

Not when that ship is crashing into them at FTL speeds, they don't. Even chunks of debris from a shattered wreck of a vessel impacting at those speeds would cause the same amount of damage.

There is no way to track a ship in FTL flight. There is no way a ship in FTL flight can track a moving target. So not only is there no possibility for a ship in FTL to hit a moving target, but it is also not possible to guide this ship via out-of-FLT observers, since the outside observer could not tell were the incoming ship is, could not predict when and where it will fall out of FTL and thus cannot give the current target data of the enemy ship.

(Plus, though I'm not sure about that, but I guess a ship in FTL cannot send or receive communication. A quantum entanglement device could probably do it, but only a hand full of ships / places are equipped with one.)

Guess the Codex took care of a whole lot of these supposedly "plotholes" pretty good. 

You can calculate the trajectory of your target and aim accordingly. Modern-day military smart weapons already do this. We have guns that can shoot missiles out of the sky. With computer-aided navigation, you can hit a moving target. It's child's play. The energy released by an impact of a KEW is massive. Crank up the velocity, and STEEEEVE Cortez could probably kill Harbinger with his shuttle.

As for obstacle avoidance, that new codex entry from before contradicts things that already happened. So, what, the "alarms" weren't tripped by any significant "nearby obstacles" when Joker jumped out through the debris field surrounding the Collector base?

Also, the Vallum Blast. Same thing, directing a ship into a planet.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 29 mars 2012 - 07:05 .

[chengthao]

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

chengthao wrote...

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

chengthao wrote...

except they produced some super-"prothean" weapon in what seems to be in a span of a few months . . . i think they're manufacturing capabilities is just fine

The Crucible has been constructed over countless cycles. We dont know how close it was to completion but all evidence points to very close. A dreadnaught requires three years to build. Compare that with a object that is similar to the Citadel in size and its pretty obvious that the Citadel races does not have such insane manufacturing capability. This is also ignoring all of the planet summaries of Reaper presence destroying their manufacturing capabilities.

they started building it from scratch

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Crucible

no where is it mentioned that "our" cycle just finished building what the previous cycles started

they're manufacturing capabilities seems perfectly fine

*edit* - ninjad

Looks like a giant inconsistency that they were able to start the whole thing from scratch when they never shown the capability to build on such a scale. Pretty bad writing.

pretty much . . . and the fact that they built it in what seems like a few months

[xsdob]

What about the fact that they've only ever fought one sovereign class vessel before, who wasn't moving from the one spot, and wiped out over 7 ships in the span of a few minutes, and tore through the full force of the citadel defense line, and only got killed when shepard lobotomized him and made him completely shut down.

So how well will they far against at least 7 fast moving vessels who can out maneuver the small attacker ships, launch out tons of oculus's, and are backed up by at least 50 or so smaller class vessels?

And remember, there are probably only a little over 40 dreadnought left in the entire galactic fleet, thanks to the councils convention of limiting the numbers of dreadnoughts a race can have.

[wright1978]

Do i think there should be a means to win conventionally? Yep
Do i think conventional victory would be easy? Hell no, it should be extremely costly.
Do i think we should be allowed to at the very least go down swinging. Hell yes.

[DeinonSlayer]

wright1978 wrote...

Do i think there should be a means to win conventionally? Yep
Do i think conventional victory would be easy? Hell no, it should be extremely costly.
Do i think we should be allowed to at the very least go down swinging. Hell yes.

That's where I'm coming from. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a costly tactic. I'm just saying they're only as invincible as you allow yourself to believe they are.

[GODzilla]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
You can calculate the trajectory of your target and aim accordingly. Modern-day military smart weapons already do this. We have guns that can shoot missiles out of the sky. With computer-aided navigation, you can hit a moving target. It's child's play.

A rocket will not attempt to evade. And a rockets path is rather fixed, because it is aimed at a target. You can calculate a rockets trajectory alright, even shoot it down. But a reaper in the middle of a combat will most likely move in non-predictable way.

So, that's your plan: Try to predict the targets path from nearby. Then do a short FLT jump. It will work if the predicted path was true. If not you will miss.

It's really simple, you're right. Either you miss or you don't. But easy? Maybe in your fantasy. ^^

[Sashimi_taco]

I don't really get why the reapers don't just firebomb planets and then pick up the survivors for making new reapers.

[Militarized]

The problem with this argument, even though I agree winning conventionally is possible is this...

It doesn't fit the narrative . The said, the ending don't fit the narrative either. What should have happened is the Crucible = EMP for Reapers and allows us to win conventionally, so you could have this dread about not being able to defeat them then having something to allow it with a big burst of "GET EM!" instead of a drawn out conflict... sort of like Independence Day. I feel that would have fit the theme of the game ssssooo much better.

[DeinonSlayer]

GODzilla_GSPB wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
You can calculate the trajectory of your target and aim accordingly. Modern-day military smart weapons already do this. We have guns that can shoot missiles out of the sky. With computer-aided navigation, you can hit a moving target. It's child's play.

A rocket will not attempt to evade. And a rockets path is rather fixed, because it is aimed at a target. You can calculate a rockets trajectory alright, even shoot it down. But a reaper in the middle of a combat will most likely move in non-predictable way.

So, that's your plan: Try to predict the targets path from nearby. Then do a short FLT jump. It will work if the predicted path was true. If not you will miss.

It's really simple, you're right. Either you miss or you don't. But easy? Maybe in your fantasy. ^^

Yeah, that's the plan. You hit them, or you turn around and try again. They aren't exactly thrashing about. If they were moving too quickly to be tracked, you wouldn't be able to fire on them at all.

[SalsaDMA]

GODzilla_GSPB wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
You can calculate the trajectory of your target and aim accordingly. Modern-day military smart weapons already do this. We have guns that can shoot missiles out of the sky. With computer-aided navigation, you can hit a moving target. It's child's play.

A rocket will not attempt to evade. And a rockets path is rather fixed, because it is aimed at a target. You can calculate a rockets trajectory alright, even shoot it down. But a reaper in the middle of a combat will most likely move in non-predictable way.

So, that's your plan: Try to predict the targets path from nearby. Then do a short FLT jump. It will work if the predicted path was true. If not you will miss.

It's really simple, you're right. Either you miss or you don't. But easy? Maybe in your fantasy. ^^

Homing missiles are possible with todays technology.

[Clumsy Astronaut]

Reapers have numerical superiority, can infer that from the info on the derelict from ME2.


They've been doing this for at least 37 million years. If you have one capital ship every cycle, that's 740 capital ships (max 737 since we know at least 3 have been killed), plus even more destroyers on top of that.


I'd say conventional victory is out the window. They could make a dent, sure, but the reapers will win out in the end by all likelihood


By using the age of the derelict reaper and the length of our cycle to determine about 740 reapers minimum, and that means around 7400-8880 destroyers if all cycles have a similar level of sapient, harvestable life. This is also if the derelict reaper is the oldest, he could be middle aged by reaper standards, effectively doubling these numbers.


Here's how I back it up. 


The codex entry on reaper destroyers says that they are made from races not worthy of capital ships. In the cycle that ME takes place in there are 12 spacefaring species that the reapers would target and that means 12 new destroyers. For the sake of things like attrition and incompatibility with reaper tech I assumed 10 destroyers per cycle with each cycle being denoted by a capital ship. By multiplying the number of capital ships by 10 we get a decent approximation of the total number of destroyers.

[Deflagratio]

Destroyers go down easier than Alliance frigates though. Ground Infantry can kill them with a single Thanix Missile.

The only real reason why we can't win a conventional war is because of the Treaty of Farixen, which set a limit to the amount of Dreadnoughts each race could build. Had the Treaty not been in Effect, It's not unlikely that the Turian Military would have enough Dreadnoughts alone to bring the Reapers to a stalemate. They love their warships after all.

Modifié par Deflagratio, 29 mars 2012 - 08:23 .

[Clumsy Astronaut]

At close range alliance can match them, but the most significant edge is their range and accuracy,, and on a planet a significant portion of it's shields goes to supporting it's weight. Also those numbers pretty much outnumber the fleet you get at the end without the 740 capital ships.

[Clumsy Astronaut]

Also in regards to Farixen, engaging in "what if"s is pointless what matters is whether they could beat them with what they have.

*edit. Another thing is that the treaty of Farixen was made to prevent major wars and limit their damage. If there wa any conflict with lots of dreadnoughts then the level of damage would make taking the galaxy even easier.*

Modifié par Clumsy Astronaut, 29 mars 2012 - 08:31 .

[Quotheraving]

A standard UT-47 Kodiak drop shuttle is equipped for faster-than-light travel, and weighs considerably more than twenty kilos. Properly directed, it would pack a bigger punch by far than any mass accelerator round.

That is assuming FTL doesn't involve a change in the inertia of the ship.

Clearly the effective kinetic energy of an Everest class dreadnought's shell depends upon it being accelerated in normal space-time. A Kodiak shuttle on the other hand must alter the normal rules of space-time in order to achieve FTL therefore we cannot use the same metric to compare the two.

[Clumsy Astronaut]

Also in regards to FTL suicide ships, the reason we have things like homing missiles today is course correction. You cannot have an accurate picture while in FTL since the blue shift from speed and directing it remotely is impossible as the ship flies faster than any signals that could guide it
Be back in an hour to see where this goes.

Modifié par Clumsy Astronaut, 29 mars 2012 - 08:36 .

[J4mes]

Jellyfish Hanar Launchers.

Think about it...

[GODzilla]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Yeah, that's the plan. You hit them, or you turn around and try again. They aren't exactly thrashing about. If they were moving too quickly to be tracked, you wouldn't be able to fire on them at all.

But if suicide-bombing is so damn effective, why isn't it used on a more regular basis? I mean in conventional wars. Don't forget, you called it "conventional." Even when it was used by the japanese it was, when it struck, effective, but just for a moment. It did not turn the tide, nor was it important for the war.

And then there's the problem of actually doing it. Well...I bet you, your friends and family would be among the first volunteers for the suicide runs, right?

[Promchek]

what always bothered me, why they do not use actual H-bombs? One of those babies could yield something around 100 megaton with our current level of technical sophistication it would be like 2631 shots from a dreadnought main gun. Just launch 100 at each reaper ship and watch them trying to intercept them with their high yield but low rate of fire beams...

P.S. i think right now US and Russia have enought fire power to destroy whole reaper fleet You obvously can't use them aganst targts on the surface but in space?

Modifié par Promchek, 29 mars 2012 - 08:47 .

[cbutz]

Best way to get the Reapers to die:
Have Zaeed align himself with the reapers, have the reapers then go with Zaeed on a mission, every Reaper will die on that mission and Zaeed will be the only survivor. I swear it could be as simple as washing the laundry, some how the reapers will die. I can just hear Zaeed's story know. "Buncha goddam amateurs I tell you."