213 réponses à ce sujet

[Deflagratio]

Clumsy Astronaut wrote...

At close range alliance can match them, but the most significant edge is their range and accuracy,, and on a planet a significant portion of it's shields goes to supporting it's weight. Also those numbers pretty much outnumber the fleet you get at the end without the 740 capital ships.

Codex Entries state that Destroyers are extremely vulnrable, and not particularly different from alliance cruisers.

The Capital ships are definitely a different story. It takes I think 4 dreadnoughts to overwhelm the barriers of a Sovereign class and destroy it. That's what makes the Geth such a powerful ally in a conventional war. Since they aren't slowed by Organic "Needs" .

The Battle of Palaven specifically cites the first incursion into the system as a particularly large blunder for the reapers. Turian vessels managed to FTL into near "Knife Fight" Range and bring their guns on several Soveriegn class reapers, destroying five in a brief battle. Of course, the five they destroyed was followed by 50 emerging from the relay, but still.

Now, another question is, does a destroyed reaperget salvaged and rebuilt by the reapers? Given the difficulty of reaper "Reproduction" , it's entirely possible to geurilla such a force down. That would mean almost every race in the Galaxy would have to live like the Quarians, since a populated planet represents a liability. But the reapers have already lost their greatest asset in this cycle, total control of the Relay network, so Hit-and-run tactics are very viable. The Asari are even having great success until frustrated reaper forces just attack Thessia.

[DeinonSlayer]

Quotheraving wrote...

A standard UT-47 Kodiak drop shuttle is equipped for faster-than-light travel, and weighs considerably more than twenty kilos. Properly directed, it would pack a bigger punch by far than any mass accelerator round.

That is assuming FTL doesn't involve a change in the inertia of the ship.

Clearly the effective kinetic energy of an Everest class dreadnought's shell depends upon it being accelerated in normal space-time. A Kodiak shuttle on the other hand must alter the normal rules of space-time in order to achieve FTL therefore we cannot use the same metric to compare the two.

We don't need to go faster than light. If we accelerate that shuttle to 1.8% light speed, we've already matched the velocity of a mass accelerator round, but we're capable of far more than that. The shuttle's mass effect field allows this degree of acceleration, but if that field collapses, the result is a lethal pulse of Cherenkov radiation as the ship's normal mass is restored and the speed of light returns to c in E=mc^2. You couldn't hit your target at full mass traveling faster than light, but velocities approaching it is very doable. It would kill an organic crew in the process, but this wouldn't matter for an unmanned shuttle, or a Geth ship. It's a suicide run. All that matters is mass and velocity on impact, and both under these conditions would be devastating.

[Deflagratio]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Quotheraving wrote...

A standard UT-47 Kodiak drop shuttle is equipped for faster-than-light travel, and weighs considerably more than twenty kilos. Properly directed, it would pack a bigger punch by far than any mass accelerator round.

That is assuming FTL doesn't involve a change in the inertia of the ship.

Clearly the effective kinetic energy of an Everest class dreadnought's shell depends upon it being accelerated in normal space-time. A Kodiak shuttle on the other hand must alter the normal rules of space-time in order to achieve FTL therefore we cannot use the same metric to compare the two.

We don't need to go faster than light. If we accelerate that shuttle to 1.8% light speed, we've already matched the velocity of a mass accelerator round, but we're capable of far more than that. The shuttle's mass effect field allows this degree of acceleration, but if that field collapses, the result is a lethal pulse of Cherenkov radiation as the ship's normal mass is restored and the speed of light returns to c in E=mc^2. You couldn't hit your target at full mass traveling faster than light, but velocities approaching it is very doable. It would kill an organic crew in the process, but this wouldn't matter for an unmanned shuttle, or a Geth ship. It's a suicide run. All that matters is mass and velocity on impact, and both under these conditions would be devastating.

Kinetic Barriers would stop any projectile moving at Sublight speeds though, just like they do for Mass Accelerators.

[DeinonSlayer]

Deflagratio wrote...

Now, another question is, does a destroyed reaperget salvaged and rebuilt by the reapers? Given the difficulty of reaper "Reproduction" , it's entirely possible to geurilla such a force down. That would mean almost every race in the Galaxy would have to live like the Quarians, since a populated planet represents a liability. But the reapers have already lost their greatest asset in this cycle, total control of the Relay network, so Hit-and-run tactics are very viable. The Asari are even having great success until frustrated reaper forces just attack Thessia.

Given that they abandoned the derelict Reaper and the Leviathan, they don't seem to care about "recycling" their dead. The forces they bring with them would appear to be all they have.

[ungodlike]

Yeah we know conventional victory is possi...... oh wait second here comes the ""Starchild"" and "friends" to explain why we can't win >.< conventionally, "murmur murmur murmur" Yeah sorry guys they told me that they've dismissed that claim..... *sigh*

Modifié par ungodlike, 29 mars 2012 - 09:02 .

[Deflagratio]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

Now, another question is, does a destroyed reaperget salvaged and rebuilt by the reapers? Given the difficulty of reaper "Reproduction" , it's entirely possible to geurilla such a force down. That would mean almost every race in the Galaxy would have to live like the Quarians, since a populated planet represents a liability. But the reapers have already lost their greatest asset in this cycle, total control of the Relay network, so Hit-and-run tactics are very viable. The Asari are even having great success until frustrated reaper forces just attack Thessia.

Given that they abandoned the derelict Reaper and the Leviathan, they don't seem to care about "recycling" their dead. The forces they bring with them would appear to be all they have.

Arrogance is often the undoing of a superior force.


But if each cycle kills at least 1 capital ship (Which isn't unreasonable I think), wouldn't they never actually build up their numbers?

[AkiKishi]

GODzilla_GSPB wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Yeah, that's the plan. You hit them, or you turn around and try again. They aren't exactly thrashing about. If they were moving too quickly to be tracked, you wouldn't be able to fire on them at all.

But if suicide-bombing is so damn effective, why isn't it used on a more regular basis? I mean in conventional wars. Don't forget, you called it "conventional." Even when it was used by the japanese it was, when it struck, effective, but just for a moment. It did not turn the tide, nor was it important for the war.

And then there's the problem of actually doing it. Well...I bet you, your friends and family would be among the first volunteers for the suicide runs, right?

Politics. It's like asking if nukes are so effective why do they never get used.

In the case of both Japan and Germany the war was already lost by the time they employed the tactic. One that was quite effective against the lighter British armour in the jungle campaign was to sit a Japanese guy with a hammer and a 500 lb bomb in a hole in the road. Tank comes along, you can probably guess the rest.

Desperation draws out all sorts of non conventional thinking.

I think had the Reapers had the sort of numbers some pople are claiming they had then Earth would have been toast within days and it would not have taken 100's of years to mop up the Protheans.Everything about Reaper strategy and tactics point to a small elite force not something with overwhelming numbers.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 29 mars 2012 - 09:06 .

[Sangheili_1337]

Deflagratio wrote...

Clumsy Astronaut wrote...

At close range alliance can match them, but the most significant edge is their range and accuracy,, and on a planet a significant portion of it's shields goes to supporting it's weight. Also those numbers pretty much outnumber the fleet you get at the end without the 740 capital ships.

Codex Entries state that Destroyers are extremely vulnrable, and not particularly different from alliance cruisers.

The Capital ships are definitely a different story. It takes I think 4 dreadnoughts to overwhelm the barriers of a Sovereign class and destroy it. That's what makes the Geth such a powerful ally in a conventional war. Since they aren't slowed by Organic "Needs" .

The Battle of Palaven specifically cites the first incursion into the system as a particularly large blunder for the reapers. Turian vessels managed to FTL into near "Knife Fight" Range and bring their guns on several Soveriegn class reapers, destroying five in a brief battle. Of course, the five they destroyed was followed by 50 emerging from the relay, but still.

Now, another question is, does a destroyed reaperget salvaged and rebuilt by the reapers? Given the difficulty of reaper "Reproduction" , it's entirely possible to geurilla such a force down. That would mean almost every race in the Galaxy would have to live like the Quarians, since a populated planet represents a liability. But the reapers have already lost their greatest asset in this cycle, total control of the Relay network, so Hit-and-run tactics are very viable. The Asari are even having great success until frustrated reaper forces just attack Thessia.

How can guerilla tactics work against a enemy who is faster and taking out all of your supplies and infrastructure? Even the Quarians have to stop by planets to refuel, restock, and discharge their drives. The organic races would also have to have some extremely favorable kill ratios which is not going to happen.

[DeinonSlayer]

Deflagratio wrote...

Kinetic Barriers would stop any projectile moving at Sublight speeds though, just like they do for Mass Accelerators.

You said it yourself. The Turian dreadnaughts were able to bring them down, and they were using sublight projectiles. Here, we're hitting them with a much bigger rock, potentially moving much faster (though not FTL) than those dreadnaught rounds. I seriously think it's a one-shot kill tactic.

[Promchek]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

Kinetic Barriers would stop any projectile moving at Sublight speeds though, just like they do for Mass Accelerators.

You said it yourself. The Turian dreadnaughts were able to bring them down, and they were using sublight projectiles. Here, we're hitting them with a much bigger rock, potentially moving much faster (though not FTL) than those dreadnaught rounds. I seriously think it's a one-shot kill tactic.

yep. it is. People just do not realize the amount of energy released by the impact. Unless ofc you do belive in space 

[DeinonSlayer]

GODzilla_GSPB wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Yeah, that's the plan. You hit them, or you turn around and try again. They aren't exactly thrashing about. If they were moving too quickly to be tracked, you wouldn't be able to fire on them at all.

But if suicide-bombing is so damn effective, why isn't it used on a more regular basis? I mean in conventional wars. Don't forget, you called it "conventional." Even when it was used by the japanese it was, when it struck, effective, but just for a moment. It did not turn the tide, nor was it important for the war.

And then there's the problem of actually doing it. Well...I bet you, your friends and family would be among the first volunteers for the suicide runs, right?

What about "unmanned shuttles" is so hard to remember? I do recall using the words "abandon ship" in the original post. Using larger vessels better suited for conventional combat against destroyers, etc. would be a misallocation of resources, not to mention massive, massive overkill.

The projectile from the main gun of a dreadnaught weighs about 44 pounds in Earth gravity. A Kodiak? Easily several thousand pounds. Travelling faster than the projectile from that dreadnaught. Do the math.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 29 mars 2012 - 09:23 .

[Orthodox Infidel]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I think had the Reapers had the sort of numbers some pople are claiming they had then Earth would have been toast within days and it would not have taken 100's of years to mop up the Protheans.Everything about Reaper strategy and tactics point to a small elite force not something with overwhelming numbers.

Earth was toast in minutes. In-game estimates said that the galaxy could only afford to run the war for a year, tops. The harvesting of all advanced civilizations is what took centuries.

You really didn't pay much attention to what happened, did you?

[BiancoAngelo7]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I wanted to fire Volus at them.

This. A thousand times THIS.    I mean...uh...."kidding" :innocent:

[Esoretal]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

OK, fair enough, except for one detail: Such a strategy was never mentioned in the game - and we see turian ships ramming Sovereign in ME1, so it's obvious that they will have considered ramming at relativistic speed and rejected it for some reason. Thus it's a plot hole in ME1, rather than ME3 and conventional victory remains impossible.

The strategy was mentioned in the game, actually. After you have that last interview with Allers, there's a bit that appears in the Codex (I think it's called "Desperate Measures" under "The Reaper War" category) that explains why destroying the Mass Relays to kill the Reapers is a bad idea, and why ramming ships into the Reapers at FTL speeds (for maximum damage) won't work.

Long story short, not only can Reaper capital ships survive multiple collisions, but FTL systems come equipped with an integrated warning system that won't allow the activation of FTL if there is a possibility of a collision course. The program is so inherent to the system that it can't be removed.

Modifié par Esoretal, 29 mars 2012 - 09:39 .

[Deflagratio]

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

Clumsy Astronaut wrote...

At close range alliance can match them, but the most significant edge is their range and accuracy,, and on a planet a significant portion of it's shields goes to supporting it's weight. Also those numbers pretty much outnumber the fleet you get at the end without the 740 capital ships.

Codex Entries state that Destroyers are extremely vulnrable, and not particularly different from alliance cruisers.

The Capital ships are definitely a different story. It takes I think 4 dreadnoughts to overwhelm the barriers of a Sovereign class and destroy it. That's what makes the Geth such a powerful ally in a conventional war. Since they aren't slowed by Organic "Needs" .

The Battle of Palaven specifically cites the first incursion into the system as a particularly large blunder for the reapers. Turian vessels managed to FTL into near "Knife Fight" Range and bring their guns on several Soveriegn class reapers, destroying five in a brief battle. Of course, the five they destroyed was followed by 50 emerging from the relay, but still.

Now, another question is, does a destroyed reaperget salvaged and rebuilt by the reapers? Given the difficulty of reaper "Reproduction" , it's entirely possible to geurilla such a force down. That would mean almost every race in the Galaxy would have to live like the Quarians, since a populated planet represents a liability. But the reapers have already lost their greatest asset in this cycle, total control of the Relay network, so Hit-and-run tactics are very viable. The Asari are even having great success until frustrated reaper forces just attack Thessia.

How can guerilla tactics work against a enemy who is faster and taking out all of your supplies and infrastructure? Even the Quarians have to stop by planets to refuel, restock, and discharge their drives. The organic races would also have to have some extremely favorable kill ratios which is not going to happen.

You don't have enough information to make that call. Reapers take centuries to conquer the Galaxy, and that's if they have total control of the Relay Network. The Asari already prove that Guerilla style attacks succeed, but they're forced into a conventional confrontation when the Reapers begin ignoring all attacks, and just focus on Thessia, forcing the Asari to fight on the Reapers terms. 

No matter how large the reaper forces are, independent cells of resistance can effectively coordinate attacks without having to rely on supply chains (The galaxy is huge, raw materials are in overabundance). Again, the Quarians prove that supply chains are uncessary. Their liveships feed their population, and they quickmine resources of convenience without setting up long-term settlements. Also, we've determined Reapers can't replenish their numbers (specifically referring to their sentient starships) during a conquest. You don't need a favorable KD ratio. One dead reaper is one permanently dead reaper. One destroyed Organic Dreadnought can be rebuilt in a year or two.

[AkiKishi]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I think had the Reapers had the sort of numbers some pople are claiming they had then Earth would have been toast within days and it would not have taken 100's of years to mop up the Protheans.Everything about Reaper strategy and tactics point to a small elite force not something with overwhelming numbers.

Earth was toast in minutes. In-game estimates said that the galaxy could only afford to run the war for a year, tops. The harvesting of all advanced civilizations is what took centuries.

You really didn't pay much attention to what happened, did you?

Earth was not toast in minutes Anderson was still there mounting an effective resistance when you got back. Theory dismissed. Are you the same guy who said the Reaper in London took 2 Thanix missles ? For someone who claims to pay attention you sure don't. If you had, you would have noticed the first one missed.

[ungodlike]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I wanted to fire Volus at them.

This. A thousand times THIS.    I mean...uh...."kidding" :innocent:

  just shoot Grunt at one Reaper he will go through it and out the other side and he'll be all like "That was !@#@ing awesome!!!! lets do it again!!!".

[Orthodox Infidel]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I think had the Reapers had the sort of numbers some pople are claiming they had then Earth would have been toast within days and it would not have taken 100's of years to mop up the Protheans.Everything about Reaper strategy and tactics point to a small elite force not something with overwhelming numbers.

Earth was toast in minutes. In-game estimates said that the galaxy could only afford to run the war for a year, tops. The harvesting of all advanced civilizations is what took centuries.

You really didn't pay much attention to what happened, did you?

Earth was not toast in minutes Anderson was still there mounting an effective resistance when you got back. Theory dismissed.

It was so effective it had casualties in the 90-100% range in many sectors before the assault started.

Are you the same guy who said the Reaper in London took 2 Thanix missles ? For someone who claims to pay attention you sure don't. If you had, you would have noticed the first one missed.

Yes. Each missile launcher has two missles on it. There are two missile launchers. The first launcher fired two missiles at once, both of which missed. The second launcher fired two missiles, both of which hit. That's two missiles hit out of four fired, total.

It's also funny that of all the points I made that this is the only one you chose to argue against.

[SalsaDMA]

Esoretal wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

OK, fair enough, except for one detail: Such a strategy was never mentioned in the game - and we see turian ships ramming Sovereign in ME1, so it's obvious that they will have considered ramming at relativistic speed and rejected it for some reason. Thus it's a plot hole in ME1, rather than ME3 and conventional victory remains impossible.

The strategy was mentioned in the game, actually. After you have that last interview with Allers, there's a bit that appears in the Codex (I think it's called "Desperate Measures" under "The Reaper War" category) that explains why destroying the Mass Relays to kill the Reapers is a bad idea, and why ramming ships into the Reapers at FTL speeds (for maximum damage) won't work.

Long story short, not only can Reaper capital ships survive multiple collisions, but FTL systems come equipped with an integrated warning system that won't allow the activation of FTL if there is a possibility of a collision course. The program is so inherent to the system that it can't be removed.

Destroying mass relays? We have dismissed that claim...

Or rather... It seems we didn't... As that is what happens anyway...

[AkiKishi]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

It was so effective it had casualties in the 90-100% range in many sectors before the assault started.

What were the numbers in the big ben trailer again ?

[Clumsy Astronaut]

Reapers have numerical superiority, can infer that from the info on the derelict from ME2.


They've been doing this for at least 37 million years. If you have one capital ship every cycle, that's 740 capital ships (max 737 since we know at least 3 have been killed), plus even more destroyers on top of that.


I'd say conventional victory is out the window. They could make a dent, sure, but the reapers will win out in the end by all likelihood


By using the age of the derelict reaper and the length of our cycle to determine about 740 reapers minimum, and that means around 7400-8880 destroyers if all cycles have a similar level of sapient, harvestable life. This is also if the derelict reaper is the oldest, he could be middle aged by reaper standards, effectively doubling these numbers.


Here's how I back it up. 


The codex entry on reaper destroyers says that they are made from races not worthy of capital ships. In the cycle that ME takes place in there are 12 spacefaring species that the reapers would target and that means 12 new destroyers. For the sake of things like attrition and incompatibility with reaper tech I assumed 10 destroyers per cycle with each cycle being denoted by a capital ship. By multiplying the number of capital ships by 10 we get a decent approximation of the total number of destroyers.

[SalsaDMA]

Clumsy Astronaut wrote...

 In the cycle that ME takes place in there are 12 spacefaring species

Full stop.

You're basing your asummptions on a cycle that is mentioned as having been artificially 'varified' by the previous cycle as being "average" ?

How can you even think of doing something like that?

[Clumsy Astronaut]

The protheans would have had even more spacefaring species as they actively uplifted any they found. Based on the lack of info from other cycles I think it's not too much of a stretch to use the number from ours.

*edit

The only race that we can confirm were advanced recently enough that they might have missed the cycle are thu humans from the prothean ruins on mars.

Modifié par Clumsy Astronaut, 29 mars 2012 - 11:00 .

[DeinonSlayer]

MrAtomica wrote...

The devs concocted a smartass codex entry that tries (and fails) to debunk the suicide ship tactic. 100k, I believe, was the one to originally suggest this, way back before this game was close to release.

It is most certainly possible, as evidenced by the apparent accuracy of FTL travel. Furthermore, others have pointed out the level of sophistication in a conventional ship's targeting systems. There simply isn't any reason why this couldn't work.

If I also recall correctly, the codex tried to invent some sort of "failsafe" code that supposedly prevents FTL jumps from being made into solid objects. That is, quite simply, a cop out. Such a failsafe was never mentioned before this moment, and smells like it was concocted for the sole purpose of preventing such a simple solution. The notion that such a preventative measure CANNOT be removed under any circumstances is a load of bunk. Anything that can be built can be disassembled, it only takes time.

Here's why I call bull**** on that "failsafe" codex entry: It's already been directly contradicted by previous events!

Taetrus is a turian colony in the Mactare system. In 2185, Taetrus fell into crisis when a turian separatist group known as Facinus reprogrammed the FTL plotter of a starship and rammed the ship at near-FTL speeds into the heart of Vallum, the colony's capital city, killing tens of thousands of people. This terrorist attack prompted the Turian Hierarchy and Taetrian colonialist forces to invade Facinus' strongholds and systematically eliminate the separatists in a short, decisive conflict called the War on Taetrus.

It can clearly be done, and the outcome is devastating. If you look up the details of the Vallum Blast, they were accurate enough to hit a specific building in the city they targeted. That codex entry is a cop-out meant only to neuter an obvious and effective tactic.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 29 mars 2012 - 11:25 .

[Clumsy Astronaut]

Also in regards to FTL suicide ships, the reason we have things like homing missiles today is course correction. You cannot have an accurate picture while in FTL since the blue shift from speed and directing it remotely is impossible as the ship flies faster than any signals that could guide it

Modifié par Clumsy Astronaut, 29 mars 2012 - 11:09 .