213 réponses à ce sujet

[spychi]

ZLurps wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

OK, fair enough, except for one detail: Such a strategy was never mentioned in the game - and we see turian ships ramming Sovereign in ME1, so it's obvious that they will have considered ramming at relativistic speed and rejected it for some reason. Thus it's a plot hole in ME1, rather than ME3 and conventional victory remains impossible.

Sorry Sir. What you see is Sovereign simply running over/through a defending Turian cruiser without as much as slowing down while the Turian breaks up.

Things have moved on since then. Remember the number the collector ship did on the old Normandy ? The rebuilt one has no poblems with it even without the game upgrades you still win.

It's a very similiar curve to X-com but one the game ignores in favour of Deus Ex Machina and space magic.

Collector cruiser is nowhere near actual Reaper when it comes to shields / defences. It takes only 4 shots for Normandy to destroy it even wihout Thanix cannon upgrade.

I think it's visual appearance even hints that it's more like a stealth vessel that need element of surprise on it's side to win, than actual battle ship meant to frontlines.

Dude thanix cannons are reverse-engenering of reaper main weapons, the do at least 50% damage that a Reaper does with their red laser beams

[Sgt Stryker]

Did we all forget about this?

[Alex_SM]

The main problem is that the whole Reaper war explanation, if we take in consideration Codex+plot+dialogues+cutscenes, is not strong enough to face a detailed analysis. We cannot say that a conventional victory could be possible, neither the opposite, because we are given contradictory statements. 

Internal coherence across the whole series (even the whole game) isn't kept, so it's impossible to actually discuss the real scenario.

The first point should be decide what part "is right", give priorities, and see which statements override others.

For example, if the CODEX is right, it would be to long/expensive to build new ships after using the existing ones in kamikaze missions, but the plot of the game says we are able to build the goddamn big crucible in a very short timespan, meaning the alliance still has good supply lines, and is able to produce nearly anything. Which one is right? The CODEX or the plot?

Modifié par Alex_SM, 30 mars 2012 - 01:06 .

[ZLurps]

spychi wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

OK, fair enough, except for one detail: Such a strategy was never mentioned in the game - and we see turian ships ramming Sovereign in ME1, so it's obvious that they will have considered ramming at relativistic speed and rejected it for some reason. Thus it's a plot hole in ME1, rather than ME3 and conventional victory remains impossible.

Sorry Sir. What you see is Sovereign simply running over/through a defending Turian cruiser without as much as slowing down while the Turian breaks up.

Things have moved on since then. Remember the number the collector ship did on the old Normandy ? The rebuilt one has no poblems with it even without the game upgrades you still win.

It's a very similiar curve to X-com but one the game ignores in favour of Deus Ex Machina and space magic.

Collector cruiser is nowhere near actual Reaper when it comes to shields / defences. It takes only 4 shots for Normandy to destroy it even wihout Thanix cannon upgrade.

I think it's visual appearance even hints that it's more like a stealth vessel that need element of surprise on it's side to win, than actual battle ship meant to frontlines.

Dude thanix cannons are reverse-engenering of reaper main weapons, the do at least 50% damage that a Reaper does with their red laser beams

I know damn well where they came from. The things is, it's from Codex:

"..[Sovereign's] its massive element zero core powered powered an electromagnetic field suspending a liquid
iron-uranium-tungsten alloy that shaped into armor-piercing projectiles
when fired."

Thanix is more effective weapon, yes but it's effeciency is till dependent of platforms, ship eezo core. Eezo cores of ships aren't upgraded.

[Oloos]

Aside the FTL suicidal ship throwing...

Don't we blew up a reaper with a single Cain Shot in London ? I mean... Ok, it was a "small" reaper rigged for air defense but still... One single cain did the job...

Equip every ground teams with a cain, gank the reapers on foot (they clearly like to "walk" on planets), and blow them up...

Also, why is the Normandy the only freaking ship having a Thanix cannon ? And why don't we even fire it one time before lauching the hammer team ?


So... Well... We can say that the crucible is the solution the morons leading the armies deserve...

Modifié par Oloos, 30 mars 2012 - 01:49 .

[ZLurps]

Oloos wrote...

Aside the FTL suicidal ship throwing...

Don't we blew up a reaper with a single Cain Shot in London ? I mean... Ok, it was a "small" reaper rigged for air defense but still... One single cain did the job...

Equip every ground teams with a cain, gank the reapers on foot (they clearly like to "walk" on planets), and blow them up...

Also, why is the Normandy the only freaking ship having a Thanix cannon ? And why don't we even fire it one time before lauching the hammer team ?


So... Well... We can say that the crucible is the solution the morons leading the armies deserve...

Thing destroyed with Cain was AA gun.

Thanix cannons are used by galactic fleet. It's dissussed in this very thread, actually on this page, no there is no plothole, also discussed in this thread.

Modifié par ZLurps, 30 mars 2012 - 01:59 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Oloos wrote...
Equip every ground teams with a cain, gank the reapers on foot (they clearly like to "walk" on planets), and blow them up...

Yeah, because Cains are a dime a dozen, and Reaper AA cannons are the same as actual Reapers. Oh wait....

[SalsaDMA]

lonedude73 wrote...

If you were a pilot.
will you do it

Pilots have done it before in our history, so why bother asking that question?

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Did we all forget about this?

I only read page 1, sooo, did we all forget about this (from the ME2 Cerberus Daily News)?

One ship accelerated to only a fraction of it's full FTL speed killed 138,000 on a Turian colony.

That being said though, it's super hard to override the collision-avoidance systems hardwired into all FTL drives, but not impossible.

[Lord Phoebus]

The reason is that ME is built around 3 man squad based combat, not space combat. They can't have a game where the fleet is the hero and not a three man team lead by space-Jesus. If the game had Wing Commander style combat or was a space based strategy game, then sure the reapers could be beat by conventional means. But ME is still a game and the gameplay is going to drive the direction of the plot.

[DeinonSlayer]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

The reason is that ME is built around 3 man squad based combat, not space combat. They can't have a game where the fleet is the hero and not a three man team lead by space-Jesus. If the game had Wing Commander style combat or was a space based strategy game, then sure the reapers could be beat by conventional means. But ME is still a game and the gameplay is going to drive the direction of the plot.

I like the idea of not having a direct role in the ending. That, at the end, you've done everything you can, and you can either choose to trust in your allies to win out or capitulate to the three choices we're currently given. If the Reapers were to be defeated with this tactic, which I find plausible, the galaxy would be in bad shape all the same - only with a different set of problems. Now, instead of stagnation brought on by isolation, you have political chaos and an open foundation for future wars in a galaxy where suddenly any shuttle can be used as a weapon of mass destruction. Picture what the Krogan would do when they learned they were duped with a fake cure. Isolating them would be a GOOD thing under those circumstances.

[Lord Phoebus]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I like the idea of not having a direct role in the ending. That, at the end, you've done everything you can, and you can either choose to trust in your allies to win out or capitulate to the three choices we're currently given. If the Reapers were to be defeated with this tactic, which I find plausible, the galaxy would be in bad shape all the same - only with a different set of problems. Now, instead of stagnation brought on by isolation, you have political chaos and an open foundation for future wars in a galaxy where suddenly any shuttle can be used as a weapon of mass destruction. Picture what the Krogan would do when they learned they were duped with a fake cure. Isolating them would be a GOOD thing under those circumstances.

I'm not arguing that it wouldn't be a better, and more logical, ending than what we have now, but as many people as you have complaining about the ending now would be complaining that their Shepard was just standing around watching NPCs beat the Reapers. 

[Vormaerin]

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Did we all forget about this?

I only read page 1, sooo, did we all forget about this (from the ME2 Cerberus Daily News)?

One ship accelerated to only a fraction of it's full FTL speed killed 138,000 on a Turian colony.

That being said though, it's super hard to override the collision-avoidance systems hardwired into all FTL drives, but not impossible.

Strangely enough, planets and the cities on them don't move in a meaningful way.  That's rather different than ships.

Mankind has use rams, fireships, and similar tactics for thousands of years.  But they always rely on somehow putting the other guy at a disadvantage first so he can't just maneuver out of the way.

Your suicide shuttles aren't faster or more maneuverable than the reapers, they don't have better electronic warfare capability (sensors, targetting systems, jammers), and they don't have any way of surviving reaper counter-battery fire.

Is it even established that shuttles have the ability to reach those kinds of speeds?  It is established that the reapers are twice as fast as our ships, IIRC.  

Modifié par Vormaerin, 30 mars 2012 - 10:26 .

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

At relativistic speeds they would only have picoseconds of reaction time to "dodge." (Assuming full speed of 12 lightyears per day, it would only take 761 picoseconds to move 1 kilometer.) At those speeds all countermeasures and counter-fire are useless and do not even factor into the equation.

[DeinonSlayer]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I like the idea of not having a direct role in the ending. That, at the end, you've done everything you can, and you can either choose to trust in your allies to win out or capitulate to the three choices we're currently given. If the Reapers were to be defeated with this tactic, which I find plausible, the galaxy would be in bad shape all the same - only with a different set of problems. Now, instead of stagnation brought on by isolation, you have political chaos and an open foundation for future wars in a galaxy where suddenly any shuttle can be used as a weapon of mass destruction. Picture what the Krogan would do when they learned they were duped with a fake cure. Isolating them would be a GOOD thing under those circumstances.

I'm not arguing that it wouldn't be a better, and more logical, ending than what we have now, but as many people as you have complaining about the ending now would be complaining that their Shepard was just standing around watching NPCs beat the Reapers. 

We're already without a "boss fight" as-is (despite the valiant effort of Marauder Shields). I don't know how many would complain about a cut to branching cutscenes if it provided more variety to the endings we already have.

* Reapers win, Normandy destroyed in battle, Shepard bleeds out, Cycle continues (Liara archive epilogue)
* Reapers defeated, Normandy destroyed in battle, Shepard bleeds out, relays intact (Memorial epilogue)
* Reapers defeated, Normandy survives, Shepard bleeds out, relays intact (Funeral epilogue)
* Reapers defeated, Normandy survives, Shepard rescued, relays intact (Reunion epilogue)

There would likely still be Reapers alive, uncontrolled and unconvinced, scattered about the galaxy. There's no telling when they might come back, leaving some dark implications for the future. With "unshackled" FTL, I guess we'd get a chance to see if we were mature enough as a civilization to handle the technology, or if we'd live up to Mordin's "cavemen with nukes" metaphor and potentially destroy ourselves. Then you'd still have the whole organic/synthetic stitchup to deal with down the road, provided you buy the Singularity argument...

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 30 mars 2012 - 11:18 .

[Vormaerin]

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

At relativistic speeds they would only have picoseconds of reaction time to "dodge." (Assuming full speed of 12 lightyears per day, it would only take 761 picoseconds to move 1 kilometer.) At those speeds all countermeasures and counter-fire are useless and do not even factor into the equation.

How do you know?  Because we can't do it right now?   What makes you so sure the Reapers can't react like that?

Plus, you do have to start your acceleration from somewhere and that somewhere is going to be well within the reaper's sensor range, since their range is longer than yours.  You know the old adage "You don't dodge the bullet, you dodge the gun." Or are you just firing shuttles in random directions, hoping they chance to hit something too blind to notice?   

You have to make incredibly fine calculations to actually hit a ship in the vastness of space.  There is every reason to believe the reapers have vastly superior ECM.   EDI, who is more advanced than any other cyberwarfare VI in the fleet, is needed to get a guided missile to hit a practically immobile reaper destroyer at point blank range.   And you are going to hit a moving Sovereign class reaper in space over vastly greater distances?

Not to mention, given the space magic nature of ME ftl travel, do you even know if it interacts meaningfully with sublight reality?   I suppose the codex's statement about collision failsafes implies that collisions are possible, though it may be referring to coming out of ftl travel.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 30 mars 2012 - 11:56 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Did we all forget about this?

I only read page 1, sooo, did we all forget about this (from the ME2 Cerberus Daily News)?

One ship accelerated to only a fraction of it's full FTL speed killed 138,000 on a Turian colony.

That being said though, it's super hard to override the collision-avoidance systems hardwired into all FTL drives, but not impossible.

I know about the Vallum blast, and like you said, that was kind of a fluke. Actually, I was recently entertaining the idea of having an outcome (maybe a low-EMS outcome) where EDI and Joker do just that to Harbinger. Imagine EDI using her Reaper-based AI know-how to work around the failsafes, and Joker convincing the rest of the crew to abandon ship. Then, cue a somber-yet-heroic Clint Mansell-esque mix of this music...

[DeinonSlayer]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Did we all forget about this?

I only read page 1, sooo, did we all forget about this (from the ME2 Cerberus Daily News)?

One ship accelerated to only a fraction of it's full FTL speed killed 138,000 on a Turian colony.

That being said though, it's super hard to override the collision-avoidance systems hardwired into all FTL drives, but not impossible.

I know about the Vallum blast, and like you said, that was kind of a fluke. Actually, I was recently entertaining the idea of having an outcome (maybe a low-EMS outcome) where EDI and Joker do just that to Harbinger. Imagine EDI using her Reaper-based AI know-how to work around the failsafes, and Joker convincing the rest of the crew to abandon ship. Then, cue a somber-yet-heroic Clint Mansell-esque mix of this music...

See, THAT'S a proper way for the Normandy to go down. Not an inexplicable (and out-of-character) act of cowardice condemning certain squadmates to a lingering death by starvation while the rest form an incestuous colony...

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 31 mars 2012 - 12:17 .

[Tirigon]

UnstableMongoose wrote...

You remember that time when it took 50,000 Quarian ships to destroy a single reaper in a sustained orbital bombardment. Keep in mind, according to the codex, Reapers have weaker kinetic barriers while on the surface of a planet because they have to reduce their mass in order to maneuver or walk in a gravity well.

That was just another case of ending-quality writing. "Entire Fleet" my ass. There was 1 ****ing rocket, and a tiny one at that, per shot of that stupid laser target thing, and the firepower of only 2 or 3 ships in the cutscene.

In fact, the Reaper combat on Rannoch was one of the game's worst parts (Rannoch overall was incrtedibly awesome though, dont get me wrong).

[Vormaerin]

Well, its certainly another hollywood scene. Shepard couldn't have survived the Normandy's strike at that range, much less what the Quarians unleashed. It was just impractical to show him doing proper forward recon from a mile away while dodging the reaper's long range shots. At the range shown for game play purposes, the reaper laser should have been wreaking havoc like the one in the final Hammer charge.

I find it interesting that everyone takes the gameplay as trumping the narration, though, when it makes more sense to believe the gameplay element is what's implausible.

[Vormaerin]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Not an inexplicable (and out-of-character) act of cowardice condemning certain squadmates to a lingering death by starvation while the rest form an incestuous colony...

Not that I like the Normandy cutscene, but there's no reason to believe that it was any sort of cowardice.  Its entirely plausible, though unstated, that Hackett would give a "Run like hell before it detonates" command to the fleet once the crucible activation was imminent.   All they know its is an astronomically powerful weapon.   No reason to stay close to find out exactly how it goes "boom*.    Joker might be the last guy through the relay after doing a run to London to pick up survivors.

Obviously, none of that is in the cutscene.  But neither is anything about cowardice or leaving people behind.

Besides, no squadmates are going to starve.  We can manufacture dextro and levo proteins today.   If the fleets are still present, they'll have that capability even if Earth's manufacturing base is toast.

Remember, the fleets just aren't that big and a large portion of the earth's population is gone.   Maybe Wreav really does end up with Australia... 

[Sgt Stryker]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Did we all forget about this?

I only read page 1, sooo, did we all forget about this (from the ME2 Cerberus Daily News)?

One ship accelerated to only a fraction of it's full FTL speed killed 138,000 on a Turian colony.

That being said though, it's super hard to override the collision-avoidance systems hardwired into all FTL drives, but not impossible.

I know about the Vallum blast, and like you said, that was kind of a fluke. Actually, I was recently entertaining the idea of having an outcome (maybe a low-EMS outcome) where EDI and Joker do just that to Harbinger. Imagine EDI using her Reaper-based AI know-how to work around the failsafes, and Joker convincing the rest of the crew to abandon ship. Then, cue a somber-yet-heroic Clint Mansell-esque mix of this music...

See, THAT'S a proper way for the Normandy to go down. Not an inexplicable (and out-of-character) act of cowardice condemning certain squadmates to a lingering death by starvation while the rest form an incestuous colony...

Just for the record, I am a complete amateur when it comes to creative writing. The only things I've written in the realm of science fiction are a couple of crappy short stories for High School English class, way back in the day.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

That would indeed be a fitting bittersweet end for Joker and EDI.

Vormaerin wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

At relativistic speeds they would only have picoseconds of reaction time to "dodge." (Assuming full speed of 12 lightyears per day, it would only take 761 picoseconds to move 1 kilometer.) At those speeds all countermeasures and counter-fire are useless and do not even factor into the equation.

How do you know?  Because we can't do it right now?   What makes you so sure the Reapers can't react like that?

Plus, you do have to start your acceleration from somewhere and that somewhere is going to be well within the reaper's sensor range, since their range is longer than yours.  You know the old adage "You don't dodge the bullet, you dodge the gun." Or are you just firing shuttles in random directions, hoping they chance to hit something too blind to notice?   

You have to make incredibly fine calculations to actually hit a ship in the vastness of space.  There is every reason to believe the reapers have vastly superior ECM.   EDI, who is more advanced than any other cyberwarfare VI in the fleet, is needed to get a guided missile to hit a practically immobile reaper destroyer at point blank range.   And you are going to hit a moving Sovereign class reaper in space over vastly greater distances?

Not to mention, given the space magic nature of ME ftl travel, do you even know if it interacts meaningfully with sublight reality?   I suppose the codex's statement about collision failsafes implies that collisions are possible, though it may be referring to coming out of ftl travel.

Curse you and your logic and, makeout parties...

[brfritos]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

redplague wrote...

A reaper vessel destroys those ships in one shot.

Not when that ship is crashing into them at FTL speeds, they don't. Even chunks of debris from a shattered wreck of a vessel impacting at those speeds would cause the same amount of damage.

I didn't read the rest of the topic, but the japanese came with this brilliant idea on WWII too.

Sorry, it didn't worked. 

[Facialmatters]

Vormaerin wrote...

How do you know?  Because we can't do it right now?   What makes you so sure the Reapers can't react like that?

Plus, you do have to start your acceleration from somewhere and that somewhere is going to be well within the reaper's sensor range, since their range is longer than yours.  You know the old adage "You don't dodge the bullet, you dodge the gun." Or are you just firing shuttles in random directions, hoping they chance to hit something too blind to notice?   

You have to make incredibly fine calculations to actually hit a ship in the vastness of space.  There is every reason to believe the reapers have vastly superior ECM.   EDI, who is more advanced than any other cyberwarfare VI in the fleet, is needed to get a guided missile to hit a practically immobile reaper destroyer at point blank range.   And you are going to hit a moving Sovereign class reaper in space over vastly greater distances?

Not to mention, given the space magic nature of ME ftl travel, do you even know if it interacts meaningfully with sublight reality?   I suppose the codex's statement about collision failsafes implies that collisions are possible, though it may be referring to coming out of ftl travel.

If the reapers were able to function effectively at mass affected speeds, why dont they do so?

The reapers can't take out every single taregt of a galaxy spanning allied fleet before they close the distance, if the ending Battle of Earth cinematic is to guess by. Heck, going by that you could get close enough to eyeball it.

If it so hard to hit Reapers, how do we do it at all with conventional mass accelerators and torpedos? Besides, I doubt the "targetting system" for a kamikaze shuttle would be active and thus jammable. Youd simply point and hit the engines, no need for course corrections at a distance of 100,000 kilometres. Itd be like aiming and firing a laser - wherever you point, its gonna hit.

In addition, if ships can calculate FTL travel from one side of a solar system to within a few thousand miles of a planet routinely without miscalculation and being ripped apart by gravity, then id say that our calculation ability is enough to hit a Reaper from 100,000km away.