213 réponses à ce sujet

[Eliavres33]

This whole argument falls only because of one thing: plot devices. In this case, Villain Decay. Or more specifically, Lowered Monster Dificulty..

This is a fictional universe so logic doesn't matter because this is the way it was defined in their script. Yeah it sucks, I know.
What you need to realise is that spamming these forums with logic arguments for why the plot sucked is useless,  what you need to do is show them your discontent, and tell them where they failed the most. And pray they don't ignore you. Us.

The first two parts I think we all can agree are ok. For the ignoring part..the next few weeks should give us a good clue.

[PiEman]

I'm too tired (and don't feel like getting angrier tonight) to go through the rest of this thread since last time I checked it.

So has anyone mentioned that Bioware covered this in the game already? The use of shuttles and freighters as kamikazi's, I mean. There's a Codex entry on it called "Desperate Measures", for those who aren't aware, and it explains why this is impractical, if not impossible.

Unless now people are complaining that the space battles are too visually appealing...

[PiEman]

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Did we all forget about this?

I only read page 1, sooo, did we all forget about this (from the ME2 Cerberus Daily News)?

One ship accelerated to only a fraction of it's full FTL speed killed 138,000 on a Turian colony.

That being said though, it's super hard to override the collision-avoidance systems hardwired into all FTL drives, but not impossible.

To be fair, a planet tends to be somewhat of a larger target...

[Tirigon]

brfritos wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

redplague wrote...

A reaper vessel destroys those ships in one shot.

Not when that ship is crashing into them at FTL speeds, they don't. Even chunks of debris from a shattered wreck of a vessel impacting at those speeds would cause the same amount of damage.

I didn't read the rest of the topic, but the japanese came with this brilliant idea on WWII too.

Sorry, it didn't worked. 

Yea but they didnt do it at FTL Speed.

Since Energy depends on impact speed, it would have worked if they had. Well, or rather it would have blown our entire planet to pieces.

[Vormaerin]

Facialmatters wrote...

If the reapers were able to function effectively at mass affected speeds, why dont they do so?

The reapers can't take out every single taregt of a galaxy spanning allied fleet before they close the distance, if the ending Battle of Earth cinematic is to guess by. Heck, going by that you could get close enough to eyeball it.

If it so hard to hit Reapers, how do we do it at all with conventional mass accelerators and torpedos? Besides, I doubt the "targetting system" for a kamikaze shuttle would be active and thus jammable. Youd simply point and hit the engines, no need for course corrections at a distance of 100,000 kilometres. Itd be like aiming and firing a laser - wherever you point, its gonna hit.

In addition, if ships can calculate FTL travel from one side of a solar system to within a few thousand miles of a planet routinely without miscalculation and being ripped apart by gravity, then id say that our calculation ability is enough to hit a Reaper from 100,000km away.

If you look at the texts we are given, the only meaningful damage done to the reapers is when the Turians ambush them at point blank range immediately on one side of a relay.   Even then, they lost.  They just managed to do some damage.  The long range battles are a slaughter.

You aren't going to be able to arrange that.  You are going to try to accelerate a ship the reapers can see (because there's no way you can see a reaper that can't see you) and expect them not to react.  All they have to do is just go ftl perpendicular to you for a picosecond and you miss by a country mile.

Ramming doesn't work if you can't trap the other guy or go faster than him.  There's nothing in space to trap someone against and reapers are faster and have better sensors.

Even if this space magic  ftl actually lets you collide with things (contrary to the texts), we have no idea what would happen.   The whole point of the Mass Effect is that you reduce the ship's mass to zero to allow ftl travel.  You are just guessing that an ftl collision will somehow convert the ship back into a massed object with equivalent kinetic energy.  Which may or may not be true.  I don't recall any such thing happening when ships drop out of ftl normally..

[ZLurps]

I think this was actually covered earlier. Kodiak is so light that it's eezo core can reduce it's whole mass. In practice that would mean impact with zero mass. With zero to begin with, where kinetic energy would come from? Water pistol would be more effective.

[DeinonSlayer]

ZLurps wrote...

I think this was actually covered earlier. Kodiak is so light that it's eezo core can reduce it's whole mass. In practice that would mean impact with zero mass. With zero to begin with, where kinetic energy would come from? Water pistol would be more effective.

We're not even talking about exceeding the speed of light here. A mass accelerator round fired by a dreadnaught has a mass of only 20 kilograms and moves at less than 2% light speed. Accelerate a shuttle to, say, 20% light speed, then cut out the mass effect field. Its original mass is restored, and it retains its velocity. The conditions within the shuttle itself don't need to be survivable by an organic pilot. You only keep the eezo core hot long enough to reach speed. Any mass moving at that speed would be devastating, as evidenced by Taetrus.

And sorry, Vormaerin, I don't buy the picosecond reaction time you're suggesting. The Reapers' preferred strategy looks to be "Casually pick off our enemies while letting our shields do all the work." If they were as impossible to hit as you're insisting, we wouldn't be able to shoot them at all.

If you want to see them as being invincible that badly, nothing anyone can say here will ever convince you.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 31 mars 2012 - 05:35 .

[SalsaDMA]

Vormaerin wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

At relativistic speeds they would only have picoseconds of reaction time to "dodge." (Assuming full speed of 12 lightyears per day, it would only take 761 picoseconds to move 1 kilometer.) At those speeds all countermeasures and counter-fire are useless and do not even factor into the equation.

How do you know?  Because we can't do it right now?   What makes you so sure the Reapers can't react like that?

Plus, you do have to start your acceleration from somewhere and that somewhere is going to be well within the reaper's sensor range, since their range is longer than yours.  You know the old adage "You don't dodge the bullet, you dodge the gun." Or are you just firing shuttles in random directions, hoping they chance to hit something too blind to notice?   

You have to make incredibly fine calculations to actually hit a ship in the vastness of space.  There is every reason to believe the reapers have vastly superior ECM.   EDI, who is more advanced than any other cyberwarfare VI in the fleet, is needed to get a guided missile to hit a practically immobile reaper destroyer at point blank range.   And you are going to hit a moving Sovereign class reaper in space over vastly greater distances?

Not to mention, given the space magic nature of ME ftl travel, do you even know if it interacts meaningfully with sublight reality?   I suppose the codex's statement about collision failsafes implies that collisions are possible, though it may be referring to coming out of ftl travel.

I take it you never heard of the tactical concept called "spotters" ?

Forces closer to the target act as "spotters" or "target painters" for a weapon deliverance outside the senesory range. In modern day warfare this is usually the deal for precision artillery ordnance or precision strikes with air-ordnance.

[SalsaDMA]

Vormaerin wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Not an inexplicable (and out-of-character) act of cowardice condemning certain squadmates to a lingering death by starvation while the rest form an incestuous colony...

Not that I like the Normandy cutscene, but there's no reason to believe that it was any sort of cowardice.  Its entirely plausible, though unstated, that Hackett would give a "Run like hell before it detonates" command to the fleet once the crucible activation was imminent.   All they know its is an astronomically powerful weapon.   No reason to stay close to find out exactly how it goes "boom*.    Joker might be the last guy through the relay after doing a run to London to pick up survivors.

Maybe I looked at the scenes were Shepard discussed with the starbrat wrongly. Did my eyes deceive me, or weren't there a large battle taking place between reapers and the unified fleet in the background  (including up till Shepard activated the ABC choice)?

your argument requires that this didn't play out in the background, yet my eyes tells me it did. Am I going blind?

[SalsaDMA]

PiEman wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Did we all forget about this?

I only read page 1, sooo, did we all forget about this (from the ME2 Cerberus Daily News)?

One ship accelerated to only a fraction of it's full FTL speed killed 138,000 on a Turian colony.

That being said though, it's super hard to override the collision-avoidance systems hardwired into all FTL drives, but not impossible.

To be fair, a planet tends to be somewhat of a larger target...

It was a precision strike at a specific building

[RiouHotaru]

Congrats OP, you've determined how to take out ONE Reaper.

...there's about a couple hundred more for you to kill.

[DeinonSlayer]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Congrats OP, you've determined how to take out ONE Reaper.

...there's about a couple hundred more for you to kill.

We've got lots of shuttles. Lots of fighters. You could fill the cockpits with sand for all I care - more mass equals a bigger boom on impact. When you take the energies involved into account, this is a one-shot, one-kill tactic.

This would also open a huge can of worms in the post-war future. Picture a galaxy in which any FTL-capable craft can be used as a weapon of mass destruction.

[Gorthaur X]

Of course, if you assume this is a viable tactic within the realm of possibilities granted by the mass effect technology, then it's also a viable tactic for the Reapers, who have the technology to do it better.

Given that, I prefer a technobabble handwave.

[Subject M]

Gorthaur X wrote...

Of course, if you assume this is a viable tactic within the realm of possibilities granted by the mass effect technology, then it's also a viable tactic for the Reapers, who have the technology to do it better.

Given that, I prefer a technobabble handwave.

So true.
The problem is found in how they describe the conflict in a "cinematic" type of way that is familiar to gamers used to watching space opera battles. The Reapers do not act like they have superior intelligence or superior technology and everyone in general is acting as their weapons was effective within visual distance only. There is no flanking, no using gravity to your advantage, no cyber-warfare etc.