108 réponses à ce sujet

[idspisp0pd]

Yeah, I tend to agree with the OP (although I don't think it's totally fair to arbitrarily exclude bonus powers and squadmates and say "they don't count" -- both were essential to playing an ME2 Adept too). But really, the main complaint of monotony and being forced into a particular style of play could similarly be leveled at most or all of the other ME3 classes.

We were continually told pre-release that this game would offer more individual choice in terms of playstyle and that it would also be harder (how many devs kept talking up how much harder they made insanity? lol). What we got was the opposite.

For pretty much every class, there's basically just one way to play it that makes it insanely easy (as everyone knows, charge + nova makes vanguard almost literally invincible, spamming biotic combos with 200% weight bonus makes the Adept a walking death machine, etc.), and the only way to break up the monotony is to nerf yourself by deliberately making things harder by NOT spamming that particular power or combo of powers over and over again. That's no fun, it's like playing basketball one on one with a ten-year-old and tying one hand behind your back to make it fair, instead of playing with someone your own age.

[Veovim]

It's funny that you complained about enemies dodging your biotics. That's actually a problem for the sentinel with warp, but not for the adept. If you take the double pull upgrade, at least one of them is almost guaranteed to hit your target, even if they dodge. Double pull -> double throw is, in my opinion, the best combo for biotic explosions (against regular enemies, anyway) because of the increased volume (two at once, really short cooldowns), and because it's almost undodgeable. And only the adept has this combo.

Modifié par Veovim, 29 mars 2012 - 08:25 .

[JaegerBane]

Fortack wrote...
I agree about ME2 to a certain point. However, powers like Sing, Pull, Throw and Warp had their specific strengths and weaknesses. The circumstances determined which one was the best to use. I am not saying you cannot have fun playing the ME3 Adept, I am saying that I fail to see the point why they labeled it a class coz everything Adepts can do can be copied by Sentinels and Vanguards.

I think that's the point where my concern fades. Ultimately, if the class I'm playing is effective, can blast through levels and I'm having fun playing it, I don't really care that some of the powers are similar or what other classes will do were I to play them one way or the other. I like how combinations are achieved slightly differently depending on defences and targets, it keeps me on my toes, and if I do it right, everything gets engulfed in blue explosions. It may not be particularly subtle but no other class allows me to combine all this mayhem with such a wide selection of physics and TK powers.

Ultimately, any and all classes are judged against those metrics - how effective they are, and how fun they are to play. For me at least, the ME3 Adept nails both. The fact I can fart about with guns without destroying my cooldowns is just gravy.

[Taritu]

What I find with dodging is that if I aim directly at the mob, it'll try to dodge (with an upgraded singularity, usually it'll wind up in the field anyway). If I aim so that the biotic missile has a lot of curve, they don't usually dodge. I make it a rule to try always try and hit enemies with the most curved path possible when it comes to any non-insta-cast power.

While the game does include teammates, I do like to have flexibility in who I take. I love Liara, but taking her feels kind of lame, she's basically an adept herself, and it irritates me that her singularity is actually better than my singularity when singularity is the adept's signature power.

[UEG Donkey]

Fortack wrote...

There have been countless debates on how to improve the ME2 Adept('s powers). Making Singularity insta-cast was something most of us agreed on. I would also have kept its ability to lock down enemies with protection (except boss level enemies like banshee, atlas, brutes etc) in ME3. Shockwave should have kept its huge AoE, having a power that's impossible to dodge, goes through cover, and can hit multiple enemies would make it very useful. Obviously both improvements should come at the cost of a much higher cooldown to keep the other powers balanced.

Singularity should be instant cast but why should it have a much higher cool down wouldn't that give you a reason to use adepts over the other hybrids?

[ChaosAgentLoki]

I can agree with many of your points. I played through all of ME3 as an adept, but I found that it was lacking compared to ME2. Instead of feeling like a powerful crowd control character (one who would play back-up to my frontline fighters) I felt like I was just repeating the same actions over and over and over, without any strategy to even think of. As for the comment that the adept is overpowered in ME3. Yes it probably is, it just lost all semblance of required strategy however.

[capn233]

Fortack makes good points.

I also think it is odd to say anything about taking a tech bonus power as a defense of a class design. The class should stand on its own, not only work after you mix in a power that doesn't even belong on a pure adept class.  Not that any of this makes sense anyway... the class is more than powerful enough for the game without Energy Drain.

Basically what it really comes down to is the greatly watered down combat mechanics compared to ME2. Thank you whiners, you won.  There is a huge amount of overlap for the Adepts powers... so why do yo need all of them?  Heaven forbid you could have more specialized powers, so that you use the right tool for the right job.  Instead they decided to give you all hammers, and then change most of the enemies into nails.  Letting nearly every power set off a biotic explosion is such a huge concession... I just can't fathom why they did that other then drugs.

This doesn't really only apply to adept... you can play Engineer with practically just Overload. Now that Overload is also Neural Shock and works great on barriers.  Or you can set off every sort of tech type explosion.

So far I would say only Soldier really has the short end of the stick in this game. While they made all powers work on everything and blow everything up (with only mild degrees of usefulness separating most of them) they basically made weapons something that you just carry around to do a little damage in between powers. Of course if you are a Soldier weapons are supposed to be your power. Don't get me wrong, the game is certainly beatable as soldier, but it seems like the class lags behind the rest.

Modifié par capn233, 29 mars 2012 - 11:34 .

[Sailears]

I'm trying to stay in denial, but can't really argue anything against this. It is repetitive "boom boom".

Singularity should/could projectileless, and it should have some unique feature - like slowly dragging in targets in a 10m radius, slowing their movement (but not capturing them for detonation), and last a lot longer (~20 seconds). Offset that with a longer cooldown (~8 seconds?), and it could be the real battle opener - create one somewhere and it will have a noticeable and unique effect on the battlefield.

I dunno, I can't think of much off the top of my head right now.

[The Spamming Troll]

does anyone miss my I HATE ENEMY PROTECTIONS rants?

some points on how id improve the ME3 adept:

1. make singularity instacast. why dos singularity need to travel in a biobubble like throw and pull?

2. remove bubble stasis option because bubble stasis > singularity(refer to point 1 on a reason why) or give adept stasis. but that doesnt solve much, it just adds another overlapping and redundant ability. making OP stasis as a bonus power is like taking a dump on the adepts face. wheres my bonus power called semi-invisible, or charge-kindof?

3. change bionades into grenades that instead of making more biosplosions, theyd create a bio-enhancement field bubble(think suicide mission swarm bubble) that allows for much more potent biotics while used inside said field.

4. ive always had a problem with this next point! why do the adepts get less weapon weight? are the adepts abilites better then the vanguards or the infiltrators? no, so why do we get comparable abilities, but fewer weapons??? the snetinel in ME1 had crapp faux-marskman, now its got biotics, techs, and more weapons. WTF, this isnt D&D. the adept is not a wizard and the infiltrator is not a rogue.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 30 mars 2012 - 12:07 .

[Jestina]

It is kind of a boring class. Sentinel has become a bore too. And soldier isn't really unique anymore since everyone else has soldier abilities now. The only interesting class to me in ME3 is engineer.

I guess most of the boring factor of biotics comes from just doing the same thing over and over and over again...combo, splosion, repeat. The visuals are all the same too.

Modifié par Jestina, 30 mars 2012 - 12:35 .

[rumination888]

7 hours later and no one has yet to mention the fact that Adepts have a 40% additional recharge bonus over other classes?

[Jestina]

The recharge bonus doesn't matter after a certain point. I was lugging around an assault weapon with sentinel and still capable of tossing warp+throw bombs out one after the other with very little pause. I really hate the weight cooldown system in ME3.

[rumination888]

Jestina wrote...

The recharge bonus doesn't matter after a certain point. I was lugging around an assault weapon with sentinel and still capable of tossing warp+throw bombs out one after the other with very little pause. I really hate the weight cooldown system in ME3.

It doesn't matter for you because its clear you prefer to shoot inbetween casts. but it matters for people who want an only-powers playstyle.

[Gromnir]

capn233 wrote...

Fortack makes good points.

I also think it is odd to say anything about taking a tech bonus power as a defense of a class design. The class should stand on its own, not only work after you mix in a power that doesn't even belong on a pure adept class.  Not that any of this makes sense anyway... the class is more than powerful enough for the game without Energy Drain.

Basically what it really comes down to is the greatly watered down combat mechanics compared to ME2. Thank you whiners, you won.  There is a huge amount of overlap for the Adepts powers... so why do yo need all of them?  Heaven forbid you could have more specialized powers, so that you use the right tool for the right job.  Instead they decided to give you all hammers, and then change most of the enemies into nails.  Letting nearly every power set off a biotic explosion is such a huge concession... I just can't fathom why they did that other then drugs.

This doesn't really only apply to adept... you can play Engineer with practically just Overload. Now that Overload is also Neural Shock and works great on barriers.  Or you can set off every sort of tech type explosion.

So far I would say only Soldier really has the short end of the stick in this game. While they made all powers work on everything and blow everything up (with only mild degrees of usefulness separating most of them) they basically made weapons something that you just carry around to do a little damage in between powers. Of course if you are a Soldier weapons are supposed to be your power. Don't get me wrong, the game is certainly beatable as soldier, but it seems like the class lags behind the rest.

Soldiers did get the short end of the stick when it comes to "combo" triggered explosions...but they do get their own explosion in the form of explosive burst ammo.  I consider energy drain the primo choice of bonus power, since it deals with both shields and barriers now.  Explosive burst takes care of yellow and red bars with ease.  ME3 is definitely more powers oriented than ME1 or ME2, but I think soldier is just fine.  They don't have to worry about powers getting dodged, weapon mods allow for things like penetrating cover, and adrenaline rush is still potent (especially with power use R6 evolution).  Now in multiplayer, they really got cheated.

I agree that combat mechanics are watered down from ME2.  Overload/energy drain/disruptor ammo affecting barrier in addition to shields...check.  A huge number of explosive combos...check.  Overpowered abilities...check.

[MegumiAzusa]

Idk why someone would say Shockwave and Throw are similar. You can shoot Shockwave straight through walls and hit multiple targets. It's ideal to bump stuff out of cover. Throw on the other hand is only good to detonate biotics. When sporting a pistol/precise ar/smg you don't even need it to stagger Guardians as at least for PC it's easy to hit the slot.
Singularity and Pull are somewhat similar but the key point is again Singularity is AOE so you often don't need an exact hit and it holds enemies in place while Pull tosses them around. That again makes Singularity in my opinion vastly superior as you usually hit much more with an explosion if it's detonated in the middle of a group instead of somewhere in the air.

ChaosAgentLoki wrote...

I can agree with many of your
points. I played through all of ME3 as an adept, but I found that it was
lacking compared to ME2. Instead of feeling like a powerful crowd
control character (one who would play back-up to my frontline fighters) I
felt like I was just repeating the same actions over and over and over,
without any strategy to even think of.

Hu? Where was it a crowd control character in ME2? Maybe on easier difficulties, but as soon as you play Hardcore or Insanity you can basically only spam Warp as everything got shields and armor. It's ME3 where the Adept again got some cc back. Playing Adept in ME3 felt much more like ME1 than ME2 did.
Just watch this for example... I basically spam Reave and sometimes Warp... talking about "dull" ME3...

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 30 mars 2012 - 01:34 .

[Golgoret]

Fortack wrote...

What have Liara and Energy Drain got to do with playing Adept? You can do that with any class which is exactly my point. There isnt anything worth mentioning why anyone should play the class because you can do all the Adept can do - and a lot more - with the other ones.

This may come as a shock to you...but in Mass Effect 3, you get two squadmates and a bonus power. Why does this matter? Because it means that not every class has to be an immortal unstoppable badass by themselves. The whole point of giving you a customizable squad with their own skill trees, as well as a bonus power, is so that you can mix and match and create exactly the squad best suited to your playstyle and class weaknesses.

Your complaint is ridiculous. The adept synergizes extremely well with certain characters, just like the engineer does. Or the solder. Or ANY class IN THE GAME.

[Golgoret]

Stardusk wrote...

Think you missed his point.

Nope. I rejected his point as invalid.

[Jarys]

I will admit that they are a bit repetitive, and my favorite thing from ME2 was taken out - that lovely scream you get when you launch someone into the stratosphere with a maxed out throw. I still have more fun with an adept than with any other class in ME3, though I don't know if that just means the other classes aren't very good >.>

[JaegerBane]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
4. ive always had a problem with this next point! why do the adepts get less weapon weight? are the adepts abilites better then the vanguards or the infiltrators? no, so why do we get comparable abilities, but fewer weapons??? the snetinel in ME1 had crapp faux-marskman, now its got biotics, techs, and more weapons. WTF, this isnt D&D. the adept is not a wizard and the infiltrator is not a rogue.

Thats actually a fair point. I do wish Bioware's devs could have at least made up their minds about what the Adept actually is. The downsides to playing an Adept are very tangible - less weight allowance, fewer defence busters etc - but this design doesn't extend to the class's playstyle for some reason. The powers aren't enough to justify the lower weight allowance.

I just wish Bioware would either make it or pure caster class or bit the bullet and ramp up the ability to do other things, like coventional combat. They keep falling into this middle ground where the player is left to fix things using bonus powers and modding. Personally I'm content to do this... but its not for everyone.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 30 mars 2012 - 06:21 .

[TheInvoker]

shockwave=throw??
shockwave is slower
shockwave hits only thw ground
shockwave can lift enemies
shockwave works through things!

the crowd control is different and i agree it's worse
Instead of having one singularity on the ground that lasts 30 seconds,you can use power more frequently because now you have very low cooldowns so it's posible to knowk down enemies every moment and in differente spots.

[luciox]

ok....i agree with Fortack. Sentinel is better than Adept IMO. Here is the fact in my eyes: powers I use most in most situation in adept, warp and throw. Wait a minute, sentinel also has them. OK...adept has a 40% CD bonus. cool. Let me see....well....low weight give me 200% CD bonus, not mention that sentinel can carry more then adept...oops...armor gives me a good 30% bonus....and research give me about 25% to 30%.....is that enough.....seems not. Yes, Tech Armor makes me 60% slower but I still can choose 30% slower or i do not put my tech armor on....and.....warp cause me about 2.5s cd, throw about 1.2s on sentinel. what about them on adept? about 2.3s and 0.9s. Is that a big difference? I don't think so. Also, overload deal more damage to shield/berry, has about same CD as energy drain, but overload has AOE.and for some reason, i found myself have easier time to detonate overload then energy drain. Also, bonus power for sentinel is sill open.

[Kronner]

strive wrote...

The Adept is dull I agree. It is a Sentinel without Overload. The Sentinel can do everything as well as the Adept as well as having options for tech burst.

Radius+Double Throw will make Throw almost never miss despite them roll dodging. Singularity and Warp missing is annoying, but if it bugs you that much I'd just use Liara or a bonus power like Stasis or Reave.

The dynamic of biotics is kind of gone IMO. You reacted to situations as they came at you, via pull+throw, pull+warp, singularity+warp, singularity+throw, etc. That is gone mainly now since everything just blows up and has short cooldowns due to 200% weight.

Agreed. The bolded part makes the Adept class redundant IMHO.

[Fortack]

UEG Donkey wrote...

Singularity should be instant cast but why should it have a much higher cool down wouldn't that give you a reason to use adepts over the other hybrids?

Cooldowns are ridiculous in ME3, they are way too fast for both Shep and teammates. Cooldowns have also become a non-issue (because of this). To balance things cooldowns can (and should) be used to differentiate powers. When power A is more effective (against certain (stronger) enemies) than power B is, it should have a much higher cooldown or nobody will cast power B at all. ME2 did this right to some extent. Singularity could lock down enemies with protection, Pull couldn't but had a 50% faster cooldown. The situation determined which one was more effective to use > both powers had purpose. This is no longer the case in ME3.

[TheInvoker]

sentinel has no biotic power for crowd control,and those are the most important for an adept

as i said before i agree that crowd control is worse than in ME1 but you can't compare adept and sentinel
Sentinel can do cc with cryo blast but since you want 2 biotic powers and you have to raise
2 passive power and tech armor,cryo blast comes really late in the game (also because overload is more important)

[Fortack]

Golgoret wrote...

Fortack wrote...

What have Liara and Energy Drain got to do with playing Adept? You can do that with any class which is exactly my point. There isnt anything worth mentioning why anyone should play the class because you can do all the Adept can do - and a lot more - with the other ones.

This may come as a shock to you...but in Mass Effect 3, you get two squadmates and a bonus power. Why does this matter? Because it means that not every class has to be an immortal unstoppable badass by themselves. The whole point of giving you a customizable squad with their own skill trees, as well as a bonus power, is so that you can mix and match and create exactly the squad best suited to your playstyle and class weaknesses.

Your complaint is ridiculous. The adept synergizes extremely well with certain characters, just like the engineer does. Or the solder. Or ANY class IN THE GAME.

You do not understand my point at all and you have not answered any of the questions I've asked. The point is that there is nothing in ME3 that makes the Adept unique in any way. Everything an Adept can do can be done playing any other class (with the assistance of squadmates and/or bonus powers). You CANNOT use Charge, ARush, Tech Armor, Drones or Cloak when you not play the appropriate class - the Adept has nothing like that = bad (IMHO) and poor design when the point of the class system is to give each one something unique (like in ME2).