286 réponses à ce sujet

[xcomcmdr]

No Snakes Alive wrote...
The ending ties in symbolically, metaphorically, philosophically, etc. with everything from the characters, dialogue and gameplay design of the series itself to real life ideologies about the nature of technology, humanity, theology, and so on.

.... You keep telling yourself that.

[nitefyre410]

*reads OP*

Not even worth it.

[VoodooDrackus]

No Snakes Alive wrote...

Really? REALLY?

THIS much outrage over endings that leave a lot up to interpretation in a game series that has stressed player choice from the start?

So let me get this straight: we want obvious black and white choices that answer everything for us in a game about player choice? We don't want thought-provoking endings that leave enough up to our own interpretation that we can come up with theories that reach 10,000+ responses in these forums?

After 100+ hours of some of the very best gaming I've experienced in a life spent gaming, I'm still thinking about the ending more than anything else, and I at the very least love that about it. The ending ties in symbolically, metaphorically, philosophically, etc. with everything from the characters, dialogue and gameplay design of the series itself to real life ideologies about the nature of technology, humanity, theology, and so on.

There's a lot to think about, a lot beneath the surface of the final choices and how they were presented, and a lot to decide for ourselves, which is what Mass Effect has always been about. Shepard and co. told us all along that nothing about our victories in this war would come easy, and I'm glad that carries over to the ending too. I'd much rather figure it all out days - even weeks - later than have Bioware go against everything this series has taught me gaming is capable of and figure it all out for me.

I may be in the minority but I'm okay with that. I'd just like to thank the writers of the ending just as much as everyone else involved in this project for keeping this journey my own until the credits rolled, and helping cement Mass Effect as the best series I've ever played.

I absolutely agree with you. Thanks for posting. It is great to see others who feel the same way I do about the ending.

Personally I think they did a great job. They told the story they wanted to tell and I enjoyed every minute of it.

[Hudathan]

Plenty of backwards logic when it comes to complaints regarding the ending. Some are legit ways that the endings could have been better. Others are along the lines of 'I want my game to be based on my choices so show me a cutscene where you (Bioware) tell me what happens' or 'I don't like that you revealed the source of the Reapers to be some ancient god machine because I liked it better when I thought they were just some ancient god machines' etc.

[The Angry One]

sistersafetypin wrote...

Geomon19 wrote...

I'd also like to thank the writers for giving me half a story and giving me the opportunity to pay them so I can fill in the rest with my imagination. That's just awesome.

Seriously, who buys finished non-rushed games anymore anyway?

That's far too mainstream.

[AndreasShepard]

Lazy execution of a story does not equate to a profoundly moving experience for me.

[Geneaux486]

Hudathan wrote...

Plenty of backwards logic when it comes to complaints regarding the ending. Some are legit ways that the endings could have been better. Others are along the lines of 'I want my game to be based on my choices so show me a cutscene where you (Bioware) tell me what happens' or 'I don't like that you revealed the source of the Reapers to be some ancient god machine because I liked it better when I thought they were just some ancient god machines' etc.

There's certainly some faulty logic.  I've seen a lot of complaints have to do with the fact that Shepard basically doesn't control the fabric of time and space.  As badass as you can make the character, he's/she's still just one person.  Can't impose his/her will on everything.  The ending is as much about sacrifice as the rest of the game, in this case the hero swallowing their pride and accepting what the Catalyst says (and you see in the resulting cinematic that the Catalyst was honest with you), and making a choice based on it.  Sure, all three choices cost the galaxy its Mass Relays (which, if the Reapers live, is temporary), but then the game states over and over again that sacrifices will be made, that not everyone and everything can be saved. 

Modifié par Geneaux486, 29 mars 2012 - 09:57 .

[WhiteJoker]

In order to have a meaningful discussion you need everybody to be on the same page with at least a handful of basic facts; this means you need to have several common factors which you can refer to. The endings, as they are, do not give those. You can speculate certainly, but it's basically speculation coming whole cloth out of your own head. That is the problem with the "it's mean to evoke discussion and interpretation" argument because the ending of Mass Effect 3 is akin to pointing at the sky and asking somebody to tell you what's out there; the answers you get will have a huge variance, based on personal knowledge and belief, and have little or nothing to do with what's actually up there. Why is that? Because we ourselves know pretty much nothing about what is up there; anything and everything we say about it is based entirely on what we ourselves want, or don't want, to be out there. That's about as much as we know about the Mass Effect universe in relation to the endings.

Take the Synthesis ending for example. What does it do? What doesn't it do? How drastic are the changes? Are the changes actually meaningful? Does it actually stop a synthetic/organic war? A creator/created war?

You can't have a meaningful discussion on any of those topics because Bioware literally has given you nothing on what Synthesis is beyond two or so lines that are vague and could mean any number of things. So how do you speculate and carry on a meaningful discussion when anybody can claim what they want and literally cannot be proven or disproven?

It'd be another thing if Mass Effect spent some time discussing the ramifications and nature of Transhumanism or a the Singularity but they don't. Transhumanism is discussed perhaps once in an optional conversation with EDI who ultimately turns it into a joke rather then discuss the actual realities of transhumanism in the Mass Effect universe. The Singularity concept isn't discussed at all; even the Geth megastructure isn't referred to as a potential Singularity or even evolutionary step but instead a spiritual-community based argument.

When you have to go outside of a series to define the terms and concepts then you are no longer speculating about that series; you're speculating about the things you got from elsewhere. In other words Bioware didn't give you an ending, they gave you a flash card and then you went to the library (I know, I know, so last century) and read everything there on the subject so you could have a conversation about the word on the flash card. Anything you get out of that ending is your own and has nothing to do with Bioware save for the impetus of giving you that flash card. That is the problem.

And no, Mass Effect has never been deciding what the consequences of your actions were for yourself; Mass Effect has been about making hard choices and seeing those consequences put into play. You never made a decision in Mass Effect in a vacuum; you made it and you were given the expectation that it would pan out and you would see some tangible result of that decision somewhere down the line. If you saved the Rachni queen you were told right off the bat that when the time came she wouldn't forget. When you saved or sacrificed the Council you immediately saw effects in the ending with the selection of a new Council or their newfound trust in you; this was shown off as soon as you stepped on to the Citadel in ME2. Mass Effect has never been choose blindly and figure it out for yourself; it's been choose and see.  It's right there in the name, Mass Effect as in Cause and Effect.  We get Cause, we do not get Effect.

Modifié par WhiteJoker, 29 mars 2012 - 10:02 .

[AtlasMickey]

Well put, OP.

You have my support.

[dracolord64]

No Snakes Alive wrote...
The ending ties in symbolically, metaphorically, philosophically, etc. with everything from the characters, dialogue and gameplay design of the series itself to real life ideologies about the nature of technology, humanity, theology, and so on.

Mind citing some examples?

[Talogrungi]

Hi, OP.

The Ending:

"O, hai. I'm a hitherto unknown AI Reaper God. I'm in the form of a small child from your subconscious, but don't ask why. Also don't ask what I've been doing since ME1. I control the Reapers, who "save" everyone more advanced than a smart chimpanzee by boiling them down into paste. Don't ask about the paste, it's fine.

Right, well now you have three choices. One, you can grab some live wires, die and that'll mean you have control of the Reapers. Or, if you prefer .. you can leap into this beam of energy, die, and that'll create everlasting peace. The Geth will all grow spleens, and the organics will be infested with cybernetics. That's sure to make everyone happy and stamp out racism and such. Third choice, you can shoot the crap out of this tube and that'll kill pretty much everyone. Not you though. The citadel will explode, but you'll survive uncontrolled re-entry and have a nice soft landing on some jagged rocks, it'll be fine.

Incidentally, regardless of what you choose, the Mass Relays will all explode and may or may not wipe out every living thing in every star system. Assuming they don't, your entire war fleet (if you didn't kill them by shooting the aforementioned tube) will be stranded in Sol.

Oh, one other thing .. the squad members who died when Harbinger toasted them with his beam; totally not dead. They'll be teleported to the Normandy and crash land in the garden of eden."

As a reasonably intelligent and well educated gentlemen of 33 years old; I find it a tad difficult to ascribe much worth to any element of this convoluted, illogical, god-awful "ending".

One might even be tempted to suggest that it was horribly rushed in order to meet a deadline and that Bioware sacrificed any artistic integrity remaining in the franchise on the altar of the almighty EA.

In conclusion; I'm happy that you're happy with the ending. I, unfortunately, am not. I have certain expectations of those who feel comfortable in identifying themselves as "professional writers" and Mass Effect 3 did not meet those expectations.

Good day, sir.

[Geneaux486]

The endings, as they are, do not give those. You can speculate certainly, but it's basically speculation coming whole cloth out of your own head.

I see this misconception a lot.  All three games give us enough information to work with to make informed discussions about where civilization would go after each of the endings.  It's speculation, yes, but based on a multitude of facts we have been given.
Will the Quarians starve?  We know that they're far away from their home planet, but we also know that they have liveships, and have been feeding themselves without a home planet for centuries.
What about the Turians?  Emergency rations combined with the fact that they're now getting along with the Quarians gives us enough information to infer that they aren't doomed either.
The Mass Relays?  Even if the Reapers perish at the end, not only are they themselves salvageable, but so is the wreckage of the Mass Relays.
The endings are ambiguous, yes, but to say that we don't have any information to go on when we speculate is simply untrue.

Take the Synthesis ending for example. What does it do? What doesn't it do? How drastic are the changes? Are the changes actually meaningful? Does it actually stop a synthetic/organic war? A creator/created war?

I find it odd that you chose this as an example, as it was actually pretty straightforward.  Synthesis basically altered and strengthened the DNA of all organics with synthetic tissue.  Looking at Joker tells us that the changes are subtle, which is to be expected, since the changes are occuring on a molecular level.  We also see that it stops the synthetic/organic war because the Reapers leave after the humans and others have been synthesized.

And no, Mass Effect has never been deciding what the consequences of your actions were for yourself; Mass Effect has been about making hard choices and seeing those consequences put into play. You never made a decision in Mass Effect in a vacuum; you made it and you were given the expectation that it would pan out and you would see some tangible result of that decision somewhere down the line.

Yes, but that is because the game continued the narrative into a sequel.  Unless Bioware had made it so that there were no choices at all involved in the ending, there was always going to be some ambiguity.  Even then, it's not as bad as it could have been, as the player's perspective outlives Shepard, and we get to see the end-result of the final choice.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 29 mars 2012 - 10:11 .

[Hudathan]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

Plenty of backwards logic when it comes to complaints regarding the ending. Some are legit ways that the endings could have been better. Others are along the lines of 'I want my game to be based on my choices so show me a cutscene where you (Bioware) tell me what happens' or 'I don't like that you revealed the source of the Reapers to be some ancient god machine because I liked it better when I thought they were just some ancient god machines' etc.

There's certainly some faulty logic.  I've seen a lot of complaints have to do with the fact that Shepard basically doesn't control the fabric of time and space.  As badass as you can make the character, he's/she's still just one person.  Can't impose his/her will on everything.  The ending is as much about sacrifice as the rest of the game, in this case the hero swallowing their pride and accepting what the Catalyst says (and you see in the resulting cinematic that the Catalyst was honest with you), and making a choice based on it.  Sure, all three choices cost the galaxy its Mass Relays (which, if the Reapers live, is temporary), but then the game states over and over again that sacrifices will be made, that not everyone and everything can be saved. 

Some people are just mad that the relays are gone and they think that their beloved Mass Effect franchise is literally destroyed forever. I don't really know what to say to that. I can tell them that ME4 can still be interesting without us running around on the Citadel like we have done for 100+ hours already, but I would probably be wasting my time.

[CaliGuy033]

OP: <Objectively reasonable take, open to subjective disagreement within the bounds of taste>

Responder 1: "Troll."
Responder 2: "This thread again." (Incidentally, these posts are exponentially more useless than repeat threads.)
Responder 3: "Your opinion is wrong because the ending is objectively bad."

Kudos to those who avoided the pitfalls of responders 1-3 and actually wrote something intelligent to the OP, whether or not they agreed with him.

Modifié par CaliGuy033, 29 mars 2012 - 10:10 .

[STAG IRONHIDE]

No Snakes Alive wrote...

Really? REALLY?

THIS much outrage over endings that leave a lot up to interpretation in a game series that has stressed player choice from the start?

You just answered why there is outrage, also see my quote.

[Ziggeh]

I'd settle for an ending that didn't take the almost entire rest of the games achingly slow process of achieving closure in every concievable area of the plot, and then just sort of kick it over and tell you it's cool.

[CaliGuy033]

Talogrungi wrote...

Hi, OP.

The Ending:

"O, hai. I'm a hitherto unknown AI Reaper God. I'm in the form of a small child from your subconscious, but don't ask why. Also don't ask what I've been doing since ME1. I control the Reapers, who "save" everyone more advanced than a smart chimpanzee by boiling them down into paste. Don't ask about the paste, it's fine.

Right, well now you have three choices. One, you can grab some live wires, die and that'll mean you have control of the Reapers. Or, if you prefer .. you can leap into this beam of energy, die, and that'll create everlasting peace. The Geth will all grow spleens, and the organics will be infested with cybernetics. That's sure to make everyone happy and stamp out racism and such. Third choice, you can shoot the crap out of this tube and that'll kill pretty much everyone. Not you though. The citadel will explode, but you'll survive uncontrolled re-entry and have a nice soft landing on some jagged rocks, it'll be fine.

Incidentally, regardless of what you choose, the Mass Relays will all explode and may or may not wipe out every living thing in every star system. Assuming they don't, your entire war fleet (if you didn't kill them by shooting the aforementioned tube) will be stranded in Sol.

Oh, one other thing .. the squad members who died when Harbinger toasted them with his beam; totally not dead. They'll be teleported to the Normandy and crash land in the garden of eden."

As a reasonably intelligent and well educated gentlemen of 33 years old; I find it a tad difficult to ascribe much worth to any element of this convoluted, illogical, god-awful "ending".

One might even be tempted to suggest that it was horribly rushed in order to meet a deadline and that Bioware sacrificed any artistic integrity remaining in the franchise on the altar of the almighty EA.

In conclusion; I'm happy that you're happy with the ending. I, unfortunately, am not. I have certain expectations of those who feel comfortable in identifying themselves as "professional writers" and Mass Effect 3 did not meet those expectations.

Good day, sir.

Whoops, I forgot Responder #4: "Straw man, straw man, straw man."  

Modifié par CaliGuy033, 29 mars 2012 - 10:14 .

[Nobrandminda]

No Snakes Alive wrote...

The ending ties in symbolically, metaphorically, philosophically, etc. with everything from the characters, dialogue and gameplay design of the series itself to real life ideologies about the nature of technology, humanity, theology, and so on.

It really doesn't.  In many ways it completely contradicts the themes and philosophies that had been present throughout the series up to that point.

Modifié par Nobrandminda, 29 mars 2012 - 10:15 .

[dracolord64]

The op seems to imply mass effect ended like one of those mystery novels where they give you several clues and suspects and ends the novel before telling you the culprit leaving you to speculate who is the "true" culprit. I personally did not like the endings vagueness.

[Geneaux486]

Nobrandminda wrote...

No Snakes Alive wrote...

The ending ties in symbolically, metaphorically, philosophically, etc. with everything from the characters, dialogue and gameplay design of the series itself to real life ideologies about the nature of technology, humanity, theology, and so on.

It really doesn't.  In many ways it completely contradicts the themes and philosophies that had been present throughout the series up to that point.

Fighting a larger than life enemy, sacrifice, choice, peace vs. war, organics vs. synthetics, these were all present in the ending and in the rest of the game. 

[Talogrungi]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Whoops, I forgot Responder #4: "Straw man, straw man straw man." 

Hi, CaliGuy033.

I do believe that, just a few posts ago, you were criticising some of the dissenting people in this thread for posting responses that didn't add to the discussion.

I should like to introduce you to a concept known as "hypocrisy".

Good day, sir.

[Geneaux486]

Talogrungi wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Whoops, I forgot Responder #4: "Straw man, straw man straw man." 

Hi, CaliGuy033.

I do believe that, just a few posts ago, you were criticising some of the dissenting people in this thread for posting responses that didn't add to the discussion.

I should like to introduce you to a concept known as "hypocrisy".

Good day, sir.

The thread is about the OP's reaction to the ending vs. the reaction of the masses.  CaliGuy touched on the trend of knee-jerk responses to pro-ending threads and why they're not productive.  Where is his hypocrisy?

[CaliGuy033]

Talogrungi wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Whoops, I forgot Responder #4: "Straw man, straw man straw man." 

Hi, CaliGuy033.

I do believe that, just a few posts ago, you were criticising some of the dissenting people in this thread for posting responses that didn't add to the discussion.

I should like to introduce you to a concept known as "hypocrisy".

Good day, sir.

My response adds to the discussion by pointing out that not a single thing you wrote actually addressed (1) any actual part of the ending, nor (2) any actual argument that's been made by the OP. 

But hey, like I said, it's always easier to fire away at straw men.  More power to you.

[InfiniteDemise]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Whoops, I forgot Responder #4: "Straw man, straw man, straw man."  

Do you even know what a strawman is?

[xdognatex]

No Snakes Alive wrote...

Really? REALLY?

THIS much outrage over endings that leave a lot up to interpretation in a game series that has stressed player choice from the start?

So let me get this straight: we want obvious black and white choices that answer everything for us in a game about player choice? We don't want thought-provoking endings that leave enough up to our own interpretation that we can come up with theories that reach 10,000+ responses in these forums?

After 100+ hours of some of the very best gaming I've experienced in a life spent gaming, I'm still thinking about the ending more than anything else, and I at the very least love that about it. The ending ties in symbolically, metaphorically, philosophically, etc. with everything from the characters, dialogue and gameplay design of the series itself to real life ideologies about the nature of technology, humanity, theology, and so on.

There's a lot to think about, a lot beneath the surface of the final choices and how they were presented, and a lot to decide for ourselves, which is what Mass Effect has always been about. Shepard and co. told us all along that nothing about our victories in this war would come easy, and I'm glad that carries over to the ending too. I'd much rather figure it all out days - even weeks - later than have Bioware go against everything this series has taught me gaming is capable of and figure it all out for me.

I may be in the minority but I'm okay with that. I'd just like to thank the writers of the ending just as much as everyone else involved in this project for keeping this journey my own until the credits rolled, and helping cement Mass Effect as the best series I've ever played.

Obvious Troll is Obvious.