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#101
I am KROGAN

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1Nosphorus1 wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

InfiniteDemise wrote...

Only if he was actually doing that to refute arguements the OP was making. He
wasn't, he was satirizing the end, which content that the OP didn't create, to explain why HE didn't like it.

The worst you could call it is an appeal to ridicule, but it doesn't follow that it automatically is a strawman.


He was satirizing the end to refute the OP's argument that the end was good, thereby misrepresenting the OP's position about what he liked and enjoyed.

This really isn't that difficult.  Seriously.


The OP has nothing in it to make it an arguement on why the ending was good.

This really isn't that difficult. Seriously.


I don't know why you think having "something in it" (whatever that means) is an even remotely salient point.  The OP argued that the ending was good.  Rather than addressing his points, the guy above mischaracterized the ending, thereby mischaracterizing what the OP said he liked, so that it would be easier to address the OP's argument.

You know what is difficult?  Spelling "argument."  It's a tricky one, to be sure.  Right up there with explaining how a straw-man fallcy operates.


I should modify every post a minute after to correct the spellings, apologies Overlord.

Anyway, it's fallacy, not fallcy duhhhh

Condescending attitude aside, an argument has points or reasonings that are atleast backed up by evidence, there is "none" of it in the OP. Now if you'd like to quickly google what a Straw man fallacy is then I think you'll find that your definition is wrong.







Burned, spelling **** got spelling-****'d :o

#102
No Snakes Alive

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1Nosphorus1 wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

InfiniteDemise wrote...

Only if he was actually doing that to refute arguements the OP was making. He
wasn't, he was satirizing the end, which content that the OP didn't create, to explain why HE didn't like it.

The worst you could call it is an appeal to ridicule, but it doesn't follow that it automatically is a strawman.


He was satirizing the end to refute the OP's argument that the end was good, thereby misrepresenting the OP's position about what he liked and enjoyed.

This really isn't that difficult.  Seriously.


The OP has nothing in it to make it an arguement on why the ending was good.

This really isn't that difficult. Seriously.


Here's why I liked the ending: the obvious choice all along was no longer so obvious. The reapers almost convinced me of exactly what they convinced Saren and TIM, who I thought to be weak-willed and just plain evil up until this point. Everything that WAS black and white suddenly got swirled together in a moment's notice and now it was all gray.

Even what I knew to still be the right choice, the one the voice of indoctrination tried to play off as pretty much worse than the others, actually DID turn out to be worse than I expected it to be. In order to beat the reapers I was forced to project their own purpose upon MINE, and it left a bad taste in my mouth, shook my moral compass to the core, and really provoked a lot of thought, and I loved it for all of that. The whole idea of them being a necessary evil to save the universe became a direct reflection of my own need to sacrifice all synthetics - synthetics I had just come to fully realize the humanity of - in order to save the rest of us.

I liked the ending because I knew what had to be done all along but only the end made me really wonder about the nature of everything it took (and meant) to do it.

Modifié par No Snakes Alive, 29 mars 2012 - 11:12 .


#103
wook77

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But what do you really think?

#104
fle6isnow

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AtlasMickey wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

sean10mm wrote...

The Star Child telling my character that organic-synthetic conflict is inevitable might make more sense if I hadn't spent a good chunk of the game succesfully ending the Quarian-Geth war, making them allies, and uniting them against the Reapers while my pilot was dating an AI, and all without using genocide. Just a thought.


I really wish bioware had put in the option to argue with the starchild.  People could have thier Shepard try and argue philosphy with a being that is millions of years old.  It could result in shepard bleeding out and the reapers killing everything.  

Shepard is dying.  There is no button to push, no monster to kill.  No option to shoot harbinger in the face while shouting "Reap this!' then going home to sleep with the chearleader.  Shepard knows he/she is dying and is looking for a solution not a debate with an equivelent god.  If you hesitate all you did means nothing and everything will die.


Well said.


If you stand around too long after talking to the StarKid, you do get a Critical Misson Failure, lol.

#105
AtlasMickey

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nwj94 wrote...



Watch this (Yes all 39 minutes of it, your a fan boy just like me so that shouldn't be asking to much)

There is nothing artistic, or beautiful in this.


Man you got that right. I was immediately annoyed by that video. 

An infinitely better use of that time is actually watching the ending. Here's the recording of the final 90 minutes of my first play through. 



Every now and then I watch it like I would a favorite movie. I love it.

#106
CaliGuy033

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I am KROGAN wrote...
Burned, spelling **** got spelling-****'d :o


Not quite. 

#107
jla0644

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No Snakes Alive wrote...

Really? REALLY?

THIS much outrage over endings that leave a lot up to interpretation in a game series that has stressed player choice from the start?

So let me get this straight: we want obvious black and white choices that answer everything for us in a game about player choice? We don't want thought-provoking endings that leave enough up to our own interpretation that we can come up with theories that reach 10,000+ responses in these forums?

After 100+ hours of some of the very best gaming I've experienced in a life spent gaming, I'm still thinking about the ending more than anything else, and I at the very least love that about it. The ending ties in symbolically, metaphorically, philosophically, etc. with everything from the characters, dialogue and gameplay design of the series itself to real life ideologies about the nature of technology, humanity, theology, and so on.

There's a lot to think about, a lot beneath the surface of the final choices and how they were presented, and a lot to decide for ourselves, which is what Mass Effect has always been about. Shepard and co. told us all along that nothing about our victories in this war would come easy, and I'm glad that carries over to the ending too. I'd much rather figure it all out days - even weeks - later than have Bioware go against everything this series has taught me gaming is capable of and figure it all out for me.

I may be in the minority but I'm okay with that. I'd just like to thank the writers of the ending just as much as everyone else involved in this project for keeping this journey my own until the credits rolled, and helping cement Mass Effect as the best series I've ever played.


What exactly was so thought provoking or deep about it? There's really nothing to get. One way or another, the Reapers are gone. There's no philosphical problem to work out here. You destroy them, you control them, or somehow magically merge organic and synthetic life. The only thing to ponder about the endings is how long it's going to take for the Normandy crew to starve to death, and how long it will take for the allied armada to go to war and slaughter each other in the Sol system.

Modifié par jla0644, 29 mars 2012 - 11:17 .


#108
InfiniteDemise

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CaliGuy033 wrote...

nwj94 wrote...



Watch this (Yes all 39 minutes of it, your a fan boy just like me so that shouldn't be asking to much)

There is nothing artistic, or beautiful in this.


Maybe he's already watched the video and still likes the ending.  Wouldn't that rock your world?


Not really. It'd be like pointing out a crack in the sidewalk and them saying that they like that it was designed that way.

#109
WhiteJoker

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ashdrake1 wrote...

I love the majority of your argument, though I disagree with the point.  I love to think about the various points you brought up.  It's top notch speculation.  I also think it's a fine example of the ending being great for letting us think and dwell upon what comes next.

I got all sorts of text out of dragon age telling me exactly what happened.  I forgot most of it in a week.  It was satisfying right then, but forgettable in the long run.  I can't stop thinking about what could be in me3.

That's a fundemental issue to disagree though I understand what you mean.  That said, I'm also the kind of person who can look up at the sky and just come up with my own stories or ideas.  The problem I have with ME3 is that I didn't get it to proverbially look up at the sky and make up my own story, I got it because it was supposed to be guiding me along, whether that be definitively or lightly, and to me that ending wasn't guided at all, it was as informative as a blank page.  Yes, you can do a lot with a blank page if you want to but it wasn't what I went into it for nor was it the impression the company had been giving since ME1.

AtlasMickey wrote...

Transhumanism and the Singularity may not be spelled out in the dialogue
but their issues are totally ingrained in the narrative, first by their
total rejection in the first game, their partial acceptance in the
second game, finally leading up to their full embrace by the ending of
the third game (e. g. the blanket galactic condemnation of AI, Shepard's
resurrection as a cyborg, reliance on EDI).The topics really don't need
to be understood as Transhumanism and Singularity for their moral
conflicts to feel prescient. These are issues that humanity will have to
face someday and the narrative accepts that.

The Geth and EDI aren't transhumanist concepts though, they are at best Singularity without actually touching on the self-evolution aspect central to Singularity.  The Geth and EDI are focused more around the ethics of AI and sentient life then they are transhumanism or the Singularity.  Their treatment in the series has nothing to do with the merger of organic and synthetic to create a "better human being" and is instead an exploration into the nature of individuality and conciousness.  That is what I mean because the morality of the Geth and EDI had little to anything to do with whether they could evolve themselves but everything to do with whether they were people.

As a science fiction story, one must necessarily go outside the
narrative to define the terms and concepts to a limited extent.
Sometimes it goes the other way, and science fiction ends up defining
terms and concepts in real world science. But there's doubting that, if
you have never been exposed to real world science, you will be lost in a
science fiction narrative. Even outside of science, if you are not
exposed to the cultural zeitgeist, you may be lost on some issues in any
fictional story. There are passages in Shakespeare where the meaning is
lost if you don't understand certain Biblical issues. The entire
significance of "The Tempest" may be lost if you were not alive during
the British Empire's expansion into the Americas. So there's no question
that discussions about fiction are made more meaningful and richer with
knowledge outside the narrative and, yes, in some cases it is even
necessary.

Certainly however those were, for the most part, things which made the plot more meaningful.  Within the narrative of most of Shakespeare though it focused on and explored it's own central themes using outside materials as allusions and references to reinforce it's own point.  That said, within it's own narrative it defined it's core concepts and focused on those such that even without looking outside you could figure out it's core ideas through nothing more then examination of the source work.

I agree with you that they are certainly made more meaningful and interesting when you refer to other topics.  That however isn't my point; my point is that within the Mass Effect trilogy the end concepts of transhumanism, singularities, and so on, are not expressed significantly within the rest of the trilogy.  In order to get those ideas you'd have to go outside of the series and in order to discuss the ideas and concepts you wouldn't be discussing Mass Effect because what Mass Effect contributes to that discussion is next to nothing.  Furthermore to explore those concepts within Mass Effect iself is difficult at best because little of all three games spent time delving into the topics; even the biggest focus on potential transhumanism as embodied in Shepard's resurrection is not focused on the nature of the technological grafts or alteration of self through technology but instead on the nature of his associates and the nature of conciousness.

Basically my point with Synthesis is that Mass Effect doesn't define Synthesis; in order to figure out what it is in any way you'd have to relate it to other literature and then try to fit Synthesis into it.  In short you can't have a discussion on Synthesis because Synthesis is a non-topic; you aren't discussing Synthesis, you're instead discussing the ramifications of something like Transhumanism or a Singularity in the Mass Effect universe IF that is what Synthesis is... which we cannot say for certain.

#110
CaliGuy033

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1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Condescending attitude aside, an argument has points or reasoning’s that are at least backed up by evidence, there is "none" of it in the OP. Now if you'd like to quickly Google what a Straw man fallacy is then I think you'll find that your definition is wrong.


I'd say you should do the same, but I actually think you probably understand what the fallacy is.  You just don't understand how it very squarely applies to this situation.  

#111
CaliGuy033

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InfiniteDemise wrote...

Not really. It'd be like pointing out a crack in the sidewalk and them saying that they like that it was designed that way.


Yeah....that's.....apt. :?

#112
Poison_Berrie

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ashdrake1 wrote...

I love the majority of your argument, though I disagree with the point.  I love to think about the various points you brought up.  It's top notch speculation.  I also think it's a fine example of the ending being great for letting us think and dwell upon what comes next.

I got all sorts of text out of dragon age telling me exactly what happened.  I forgot most of it in a week.  It was satisfying right then, but forgettable in the long run.  I can't stop thinking about what could be in me3.

But the point is that this ending holds everything up in the air. 
It's like my telling you;  "Bloodsausage, debate!"
There is no framework for the last minute choices to actually dwell upon speculation.


No Snakes Alive wrote...

Hey everyone, you paid for a videogame, and got an amazing one that lasts 30+ hours, not including the multiplayer. If the last five minutes of it made you throw a tantrum, that doesn't really justify your false sense of entitlement to some sort of refund or correction. That's honestly ridiculous.

Perhaps it's ridiculous to expect a changed ending, but I think people are well within their right for a refund nor are people entitled for voicing that if this is it our trust in them as a developer is gone.

If you choose to take everything at absolute face value and wonder how the **** Bioware could rely on deus ex machine space magic plots with red, green and blue choices that all suck from a reaper AI space ghost child, then I can see why anyone would dislike the ending. I don't see it that way though. Neither of us are necessarily wrong, but anyone who hates the series all of a sudden or videogames in general because they couldn't think past what they saw on the screen just doesn't have my sympathy.

 
Expectation and narrative coherence.
Everything before it made this so called "deep and phylosphical" (I am loath to call it that, I've seen done a lot better in games) ending, come totally out of left field, while dropping narrative directions of the game(s) before.


AtlasMickey wrote...

A new framework (literally), a new DNA (metaphorically). DNA is a kind of replicator so he means a new kind of replicator that combines results achieved by both synthetic and organic life. He's referring to some very complex and abstract.


That makes even less sense and doesn't work well with the circuit board patern on everything at the end. But for my own sanity I just pretend that ending doesn't exist.

#113
shnellegaming

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Thanks for playing.

I respectfully disagree. The endings make everything I felt like I was doing before worthless.



Yeppers, and they don't make any sense.

#114
I am KROGAN

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CaliGuy033 wrote...

I am KROGAN wrote...
Burned, spelling **** got spelling-****'d :o


Not quite. 



Image IPB

#115
1Nosphorus1

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CaliGuy033 wrote...

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Condescending attitude aside, an argument has points or reasoning’s that are at least backed up by evidence, there is "none" of it in the OP. Now if you'd like to quickly Google what a Straw man fallacy is then I think you'll find that your definition is wrong.


I'd say you should do the same, but I actually think you probably understand what the fallacy is.  You just don't understand how it very squarely applies to this situation.  


It applies now after the OP has gave his reason behind WHY he enjoyed it. Merely claiming that the ending was too deep for us to understand isn't an argument or a debate, it's an opinion. Just like Tal's or whathisface, it's his coloured opinion of the ending however it's based on distorted fact.

#116
STAG IRONHIDE

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Geneaux486 wrote...

Earth isn't rotting.  The Reapers hit major cities, then concentrated on
London until galactic forces arrived.  Furthermore, Shepard makes one
of those choices because at this point, wounded and bleeding out, he
can't do anything else.  Innaction would only result in everyone else
being overwhelmed by Reaper forces and killed.


That's a good point about him bleeding out that I didn't fully consider, he was in no position to bargain, you're right about that. God Child was in no mood to explain or work things out,  you are 100% right. Shepard made the only choice he could.

That makes arguing the fate of Shepard's fleet moot.

#117
Goneaviking

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Geneaux486 wrote...

Take the Synthesis ending for example. What does it do? What doesn't it do? How drastic are the changes? Are the changes actually meaningful? Does it actually stop a synthetic/organic war? A creator/created war?

I find it odd that you chose this as an example, as it was actually pretty straightforward.  Synthesis basically altered and strengthened the DNA of all organics with synthetic tissue.  Looking at Joker tells us that the changes are subtle, which is to be expected, since the changes are occuring on a molecular level.  We also see that it stops the synthetic/organic war because the Reapers leave after the humans and others have been synthesized.


Given that it was the weakest of the three options it's not that surprising. I can reconcile the destruction of the synthetics (big computer virus sent through relays de-activates synthetic life forms and components) and even the control option (if geth can be hacked then why not the reapers?)

But this option where every organic suddenly develops synthetic components? How does that work? No computer virus is going to do that. Was it hidden in our vaccinations by indoctrinated doctors? Was it nanites? A rapid spreading virus that can survive the rigours of space travel and entry into atmospheres? What part of the three games even hints that such a development is possible?

Or the opposite side. How is it that a robot body, or AI controlled ship, or whatever develops organic parts? Given that few, if any, of them will have been constructed with hardware that would facilitate such a transformation how does it come about? How is it even conceivable given what we've seen in the three games?

I can't find anything that even hints that such a thing is possible within the context of the game. If the reapers and catalyst could create such widespread effects then surely they could have come up with much more efficient ways to harvest the lifeforms than we see in the game. Why didn't they just turn off the lifeforms they wanted to be rid of? This ending shows us that it was certainly within their power to do so.

As annoying as "space magic" is, I can't seen another explanation.

#118
Aipex8

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What about the control ending? If we take starchild's word as truth about synthetics and organics not being able to coexist, and we assume that Shepards "command" to the Reapers in the moment before her death was "leave and never come back," doesn't that leave us in an even worse place than destroy? We don't have to wait for our children to build new synthetics to destroy us, EDI and the geth can do it right now? Why would that be one of the choices that starchild recomends?

#119
No Snakes Alive

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So the vast majority of you really do believe the choices presented to you? Holy crap I'd be pissed too!

I'm sorry but even avoiding all spoilers until long after the ending sunk in I thought it was painstakingly obvious the starchild was just the voice of indoctrination. I thought it was brilliant how convincing it was, which really made me question my faith in myself (Shepard) over Saren and TIM, but I still thought it was so blatantly an attempt to persuade you that destroying the reapers wouldn't make a difference and that controlling them/synthesizing would be preferable. To me this was an obvious ploy and the Catalyst taking the form of something embedded in Shepard's mind (the boy from Earth) only made it even clearer to me that this was a voice in my head and one I did not want to persuade me off my gameplan.

There was a lot of truth in what it said (which is why indoctrination was so effective!) but I just didn't fully buy the idea of the eternal conflict between organic creator and synthetic creation (I just united Quarians and Geth!), or the harmony of synthesis (Husks, anyone?), or the ease of control (Bravo, TIM) or so on and so forth. I wondered about their plausibility but in the end remained steadfast in my resolve. I didn't give in to the coercion but holy crap a lot of people seem to have done just that.

Maybe I projected too much of my own self into the ending and that's why I like it so much. Maybe I filled in too many blanks. But isn't that the point? I think it's a matter of perspective, and the ending, for many, giving you a lot of bad answers, versus the ending, for me and very few others, simply making us ask good questions.

I can see where dislike would stem from but I find it hard to believe so many people think the ending was simply some randomly-introduced plot device of a character providing three straightforward choices with lame repercussions...

Modifié par No Snakes Alive, 29 mars 2012 - 11:51 .


#120
LePetitRobot

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JulienJaden wrote...

With all due respect, there is a difference between an ending that leaves a lot up to the imagination and something that is, objectively, bad writing.

Here's a review of the ending, courtesy of a fellow writer.
jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/

Seriously, read it. It's interesting, no matter your opinion.


Thanks for the link.

#121
ashdrake1

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Poison_Berrie wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

I love the majority of your argument, though I disagree with the point.  I love to think about the various points you brought up.  It's top notch speculation.  I also think it's a fine example of the ending being great for letting us think and dwell upon what comes next.

I got all sorts of text out of dragon age telling me exactly what happened.  I forgot most of it in a week.  It was satisfying right then, but forgettable in the long run.  I can't stop thinking about what could be in me3.


But the point is that this ending holds everything up in the air. 
It's like my telling you;  "Bloodsausage, debate!"
There is no framework for the last minute choices to actually dwell upon speculation.


I personally find it a bit more directed than one word.  I wonder how much of shepard is left in the control option.  Shepard pretty much becomes a diety at that point.  I wonder how long he will be able to even think of organics as personality's.  I wonder how far reaching the destroy option is, will it wipe out VI's as well?  To be honest though with the green option I wonder how it can affect ?  I mean get how it can modify organics, but how will it affect synthetics?  A synthetic is pretty much just a collection of code, does it get rewritten to have organic drives?

I can't wait for ME4.  I am hoping something trashes the communication buoys shortly after the incident  and it becomes a bit star trekish.  Starts right after mankind makes a ship that is capable of galaxy wide jumps.  We get to meet all the old species and new ones after 10,000 years or somesuch.  

Modifié par ashdrake1, 29 mars 2012 - 11:42 .


#122
Lunarth

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The more I think about the endings the more I don't like them. Well its ok as an ending as long as we get DLC that expands on it. The fact is no one wants this game series to end. There is no series quite like it and many people are attached to it. I know I was not happy with the ending and would love to see a new one or at least some DLC that expands on it an aftermath/rescue mission few other additions etc. Someone is going to have to keep the universe in check now that the reaper war is over.

#123
Machazareel

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Goneaviking wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Take the Synthesis ending for example. What does it do? What doesn't it do? How drastic are the changes? Are the changes actually meaningful? Does it actually stop a synthetic/organic war? A creator/created war?

I find it odd that you chose this as an example, as it was actually pretty straightforward.  Synthesis basically altered and strengthened the DNA of all organics with synthetic tissue.  Looking at Joker tells us that the changes are subtle, which is to be expected, since the changes are occuring on a molecular level.  We also see that it stops the synthetic/organic war because the Reapers leave after the humans and others have been synthesized.


Given that it was the weakest of the three options it's not that surprising. I can reconcile the destruction of the synthetics (big computer virus sent through relays de-activates synthetic life forms and components) and even the control option (if geth can be hacked then why not the reapers?)

But this option where every organic suddenly develops synthetic components? How does that work? No computer virus is going to do that. Was it hidden in our vaccinations by indoctrinated doctors? Was it nanites? A rapid spreading virus that can survive the rigours of space travel and entry into atmospheres? What part of the three games even hints that such a development is possible?

Or the opposite side. How is it that a robot body, or AI controlled ship, or whatever develops organic parts? Given that few, if any, of them will have been constructed with hardware that would facilitate such a transformation how does it come about? How is it even conceivable given what we've seen in the three games?

I can't find anything that even hints that such a thing is possible within the context of the game. If the reapers and catalyst could create such widespread effects then surely they could have come up with much more efficient ways to harvest the lifeforms than we see in the game. Why didn't they just turn off the lifeforms they wanted to be rid of? This ending shows us that it was certainly within their power to do so.

As annoying as "space magic" is, I can't seen another explanation.


Not to mention that since people apparantly still retain their personalities, and thus their individuality, I have a hard time believing that just because everyone went cyborg that it will equate to them never creating another form of life ever again, and thus creating the problem you're intended to prevent. Why would we stop advancing technology simply because we're now part synthetic?

Modifié par Machazareel, 29 mars 2012 - 11:42 .


#124
ashdrake1

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Goneaviking wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Take the Synthesis ending for example. What does it do? What doesn't it do? How drastic are the changes? Are the changes actually meaningful? Does it actually stop a synthetic/organic war? A creator/created war?

I find it odd that you chose this as an example, as it was actually pretty straightforward.  Synthesis basically altered and strengthened the DNA of all organics with synthetic tissue.  Looking at Joker tells us that the changes are subtle, which is to be expected, since the changes are occuring on a molecular level.  We also see that it stops the synthetic/organic war because the Reapers leave after the humans and others have been synthesized.


Given that it was the weakest of the three options it's not that surprising. I can reconcile the destruction of the synthetics (big computer virus sent through relays de-activates synthetic life forms and components) and even the control option (if geth can be hacked then why not the reapers?)

But this option where every organic suddenly develops synthetic components? How does that work? No computer virus is going to do that. Was it hidden in our vaccinations by indoctrinated doctors? Was it nanites? A rapid spreading virus that can survive the rigours of space travel and entry into atmospheres? What part of the three games even hints that such a development is possible?

Or the opposite side. How is it that a robot body, or AI controlled ship, or whatever develops organic parts? Given that few, if any, of them will have been constructed with hardware that would facilitate such a transformation how does it come about? How is it even conceivable given what we've seen in the three games?

I can't find anything that even hints that such a thing is possible within the context of the game. If the reapers and catalyst could create such widespread effects then surely they could have come up with much more efficient ways to harvest the lifeforms than we see in the game. Why didn't they just turn off the lifeforms they wanted to be rid of? This ending shows us that it was certainly within their power to do so.

As annoying as "space magic" is, I can't seen another explanation.


First off "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.".  It takes place in imagination land where people can make black holes with their brains.  I don't know why we picked now to start picking at what can and can't be done by super technology.

Second bit is, it hasn't always been in it's power.  It was not until the crucible was inserted did it become a option.  We upgraded it's operating system.

#125
Nicky 192

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Thank you for the post if you enjoyed it fair enough. I understand what you are saying but speaking for myself i didn't play the series through five years and 200 hours just to receive a lesson in art, meta-physics , philosophy or the bleakness of existence at the end of it. I played it to be entertained.