249 réponses à ce sujet

[fafnir magnus]

Well done OP, thank you for this contribution and I hope while they're sifting through the forums this thread's initial post gets some extra attention for being an example of well-stated and civil discussion about the merits and flaws of Mass Effect 3, including areas in need of patching/improvement.


@all people talking about "unique" directions for the ending, or as I call this flawed logic "Artistic Integrity 2.0".
There is a fairly common thread for all true endings. Mass Effect 3 was not the ending to a short story or random novella meant to push the limits of science fiction, it was the culmination of a universe pieced together over half a decade. There was a well defined tone and a great amount of foreshadowing that ultimately was tossed by the wayside. The current endings cause not only a major break from the established tone of the rest of the game, but are also a significant step down in terms of quality of writing and relationship with the established facts of the game.

Many of the arguments I see defending the endings as they stand hinge on one of two things: protection of artistic integrity, or the joy of reassurance that this is not the end of mass effect. Artistic integrity has been dissected and defeated as an excuse by many well reasoned arguments with numerous precedents and citations of when and how "artists" will revise their work in order to better its cohesiveness with related productions. I will, however, address the concept of enjoying the endings simply because they promise more of Shepard. The entire end sequence reeks of electronic arts shoe-horned marketing with little care given to the fact that this was the definitive, final moment of the Mass Effect 3 series. While extra content is not bad in-and-of itself, the fact is the ending sequence was so insubstantial that promising extra content becomes ironic when there isn't enough content available in the first place.

[ZiegenkonigIII]

tenojitsu wrote...

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

Stopped reding where tying in MP and SP is unethical. Yeah real unethical.

What is reding? Is this a type-o or some internet term I am not familiar with?

Typo obviously, though I think you knew that.

Actually I was being sincere. After a few minutes of staring at it though I assumed it to be "reading." I was about to edit my post.

Ah okay, my apologies

Edit: I did like your post as well, thought-out and sincere

Modifié par ZiegenkonigIII, 30 mars 2012 - 09:36 .

[txmn1016]

DarkSpiral wrote...

OP, in regard to your statement about MP being required to get the best ending...

Why si it everyone assumes that the high-EMS Destroy ending is the best ending? Hardest to achieve, sure. But best? You kill EDI, possibly the Geth (if you hadn't ALREADY killed them all back on Rannoch) and that's the best ending?

I'm not suggesting that the reactions to the Synthesis ending don't have some merit. It's the most magick-y of all three endings, and the lack of exposition allows the interpretation that we just homogenized the entire galaxy (which would suck), but it seems to me that it's the "third choice." Whether you personally can stand the idea or not, it seems clear to me that Bioware INTENDED Synthesis to be the "best" ending, and you definitely don't need multiplayer to get it.

That actually the reason I took that ending, my first time through. It was a metagaming choice, of course, but the results as defined by the (very, very limited) dialogue seemed like I'd gain the most and lose the least. Which is to say, I'd lose my life and preserve everything I cared for and worked toward.

Yes, the end result has been interpreted very differently by most players. But that isn't the point in this case, the point is which ending BIOWARE intended to be the best ending.

You know, I have to agree with you on this.  I don't see how 'Destory-good' is the best ending.  Precisely because you kill the geth/EDI in the process.  It's certainly the hardest to get though--so I can see why people are upset.  My husband was mortified that I had picked that ending though.  Essentially called me a monster. 

[Tleining]

tenojitsu wrote...

EDIT: Sorry that this is a bit long. I've had way too much time to think about this.

This is my response to a comment that Mike Gamble made in another thread. This is only my feelings, and I am not speaking on behalf of the Retake folks. If you happen to feel the same way, feel free to sign or comment.
-snip-

Great Response. Signed.

Also: I'm impressed that you are keeping an eye on this and being civil to people who insult you. Keep up the good work.

[tenojitsu]

DarkSpiral wrote...

OP, in regard to your statement about MP being required to get the best ending...

Why si it everyone assumes that the high-EMS Destroy ending is the best ending? Hardest to achieve, sure. But best? You kill EDI, possibly the Geth (if you hadn't ALREADY killed them all back on Rannoch) and that's the best ending?

I'm not suggesting that the reactions to the Synthesis ending don't have some merit. It's the most magick-y of all three endings, and the lack of exposition allows the interpretation that we just homogenized the entire galaxy (which would suck), but it seems to me that it's the "third choice." Whether you personally can stand the idea or not, it seems clear to me that Bioware INTENDED Synthesis to be the "best" ending, and you definitely don't need multiplayer to get it.

That actually the reason I took that ending, my first time through. It was a metagaming choice, of course, but the results as defined by the (very, very limited) dialogue seemed like I'd gain the most and lose the least. Which is to say, I'd lose my life and preserve everything I cared for and worked toward.

Yes, the end result has been interpreted very differently by most players. But that isn't the point in this case, the point is which ending BIOWARE intended to be the best ending.

That's why i put "best" in quotes in the opening post. I do believe you described it more accuractely by calling it the "hardest to achieve." I guess the term "best" gets thrown around in regards to that ending sequence because typically the hardest ending to achieve in video games is often the best one,

[tenojitsu]

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

Stopped reding where tying in MP and SP is unethical. Yeah real unethical.

What is reding? Is this a type-o or some internet term I am not familiar with?

Typo obviously, though I think you knew that.

Actually I was being sincere. After a few minutes of staring at it though I assumed it to be "reading." I was about to edit my post.

Ah okay, my apologies

Edit: I did like your post as well, thought-out and sincere

Haha, no worries. After I figured it out I looked back at the post you initially quoted and thought to myself, "that isnt really coming off with the intention I originally had"

[tenojitsu]

Tleining wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...

EDIT: Sorry that this is a bit long. I've had way too much time to think about this.

This is my response to a comment that Mike Gamble made in another thread. This is only my feelings, and I am not speaking on behalf of the Retake folks. If you happen to feel the same way, feel free to sign or comment.
-snip-

Great Response. Signed.

Also: I'm impressed that you are keeping an eye on this and being civil to people who insult you. Keep up the good work.

Thank you!  Never good ever came out of being a jerk to someone, regardless of how they treat you. It's all about Karma, lol

[DarkSpiral]

tenojitsu wrote...

That's why i put "best" in quotes in the opening post.

Ah, I missed that.  Sorry.  It just seems to be the general assumption, and I think it's probably incorrect.  Not unjustifiable, mind you.  The lack of expostion is 75% of what is wrong with the endings, imo.

I do believe you described it more accuractely by calling it the "hardest to achieve." I guess the term "best" gets thrown around in regards to that ending sequence because typically the hardest ending to achieve in video games is often the best one,

I had to think about a game whrere the hardest ending to achieve is NOT the best ending.  Best I could come up with is also the origin point of alternate endings in popular culture: Chrono Trigger.

Can anyoen add to that list?

[devSin]

DarkSpiral wrote...

OP, in regard to your statement about MP being required to get the best ending...

Why si it everyone assumes that the high-EMS Destroy ending is the best ending? Hardest to achieve, sure. But best? You kill EDI, possibly the Geth (if you hadn't ALREADY killed them all back on Rannoch) and that's the best ending?

Irrelevance. Let's take a stroll back through the recent past.

When multiplayer was announced, Mike Gamble stated unequivocally that it would not be a requisite for obtaining any content present in the single-player games, that all the same endings and information would be accessible to those who decline or are unable to play multiplayer:

Of course you don’t have to play multiplayer, you can choose to play all the side-quests in single-player and do all that stuff you’ll still get all the same endings and same information, it’s just a totally different way of playing.

Fast forward to the present, and the official FAQ continues to brazenly state that multiplayer is not a requirement for accessing single-player content:

You can reach the highest levels of success in the single player experience alone, but Galaxy at War gives you alternative ways to get there.

The issue is that multiplayer has always been advertised as an optional component of the game. Yes, it can provide alternatives to reaching certain goals in the single-player campaign, but it was repeatedly stated that it would not be a requisite, and those statements are absolutely unarguably false. There is content in the single-player game that cannot be accessed by playing single-player alone.

Modifié par devSin, 30 mars 2012 - 09:56 .

[DarkSpiral]

devSin wrote...

<snip>

With all due respect, devSin, you're the one that's being irrelevant.  The question wasn't "Did Mike Gamble say something that we can argue wasn't compeltely true."  The question was "Are we sure that the 4000+ EMS Destroy ending is actually the ending that was assumed to be the "best" ending by Bioware."

I suppose you COULD argue that the half breath scene is info that we can't geth without raising the Galactic Readiness, but as that 30 seconds doesn't really tell us anything, simply raises the possibility of Shepard survivng an explosion (to the face, no less), I can't agree that it has any real impact on which ending is the best one.

Modifié par DarkSpiral, 30 mars 2012 - 10:02 .

[nazgul1x]

OP, I agree completely....you said it very well for many of us. This part stuck out to me:

" Most of all, BioWare deserves it. BioWare deserves to have this series of games be one of the greatest trilogies of all time, of any medium."

Bioware does deserve it! They have shown time and time again the greatness that they can achieve. I would hate to see M.E. remembered for all the wrong reasons. It is not too late to turn this around........I hope.
 

[Elvwood]

What you wrote is absolutly wrong claiming that the suits (EA) had something to with Mass Effect
You are so off base. Are you making this stuff up?

Ooops I may have been wrong Nevermind See Below
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recently, EA has taken great pains to dismantle its negative image by striking deals with top independent developers such as Crytek and Valve Software. This trend accelerated in February, when ex-EA CEO John Riccitiello retook his old position after a several-year hiatus. Ironically, during that time, he served on the board of the venture capital fund Elevation Partners, and oversaw the BioWare/Pandemic merger in November 2005.

Pending regulatory approval, EA's takeover of BioWare/Pandemic will be final on January 2008. Both studios will become part of the EA Games division
-------------------------------------

Hmm 2008 seems Just right when Bioware started going down Hill
Dam You EA

[devSin]

DarkSpiral wrote...

With all due respect, devSin, you're the one that's being irrelevant.  The question wasn't "Did Mike Gamble say something that we can argue wasn't compeltely true."  The question was "Are we sure that the 4000+ EMS Destroy ending is actually the ending that was assumed to be the "best" ending by Bioware."

Fair enough.

I simply don't want the issue of which ending is "best" to overshadow the fact that the content being inaccessible, contrary to all their claims prior to release, is the true issue. I disagree that they didn't know in advance which ending a lot of the players would consider to be the best outcome, but you're correct that there's no indication what Jarrett was referring to when he first used "perfect" and then later changed to "best" (or rather, the indication is that he was not talking about the same thing everybody else was).

"Irrelevance" probably wasn't the best way to kick it off, but it's what I do. :-)

[PhoenixDove1]

/agree

[JesseLee202]

I agree 100% with OP.

[Daidarus]

^Above is one example of a lie told by a Bioware dev, there are others as well if anyone has the time or incentive to research a little bit. The point I'm trying to make is the fact that quite a few major lies were put out there by Bioware and that is what I have come to expect from Bioware, lies and disappointment. I thought maybe it was just a fluke with DA2's un-rpgness (<That's another discussion) but I was wrong. The ME3 endings made me lose almost all of my respect for a company, whose products I used to love, because of all the lies surrounding it.

[tenojitsu]

nazgul1x wrote...

OP, I agree completely....you said it very well for many of us. This part stuck out to me:

" Most of all, BioWare deserves it. BioWare deserves to have this series of games be one of the greatest trilogies of all time, of any medium."

Bioware does deserve it! They have shown time and time again the greatness that they can achieve. I would hate to see M.E. remembered for all the wrong reasons. It is not too late to turn this around........I hope.
 

In the grand scheme of things, this is the saddest part. It would be nice if in 20 years from now I could look back and say, "I was played those games when they were released," just like I am a bit jealous of the people who got to see Star Wars when it first came out in the movie theatres. I can only imagine the satisfaction the BioWare employees would get 20 years from now if Mass Effect was remembered the way it could, and should be.

Modifié par tenojitsu, 30 mars 2012 - 10:32 .

[2484Stryker]

[name-calling is not appreciated]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 31 mars 2012 - 12:04 .

[tenojitsu]

2484Stryker wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

EXTRA EXTRA! COMPANY TRIES TO DO SOMETHING FUN AND UNIQUE, ANTI-SOCIAL PEOPLE WITH NO FRIENDS CALL FOUL! BLAME CORPORATE INTERESTS!

More at 11!

You people and your stupid, nitpicky arguments... You're beginning to get way too predictable.

Go away troll.  My 2 year old cousin does a better job at that than you.

While I appreciate the support, Stanley Woo already reprimanded him, so just leave it alone and hopefully he goes away 

[Inxentas]

Even I do a better job. I killed Garrus and I don't care what your think TROLOLOLOLO

[Azrael08151819]

Want my 16 different endings atm i have only 1 and at least one of them has to be happy !

[tenojitsu]

Inxentas wrote...

Even I do a better job. I killed Garrus and I don't care what your think TROLOLOLOLO

Ok, I admit. The attempt was a fail, lol. But back to the topic at hand:)

[omphaloskepsis]

@tenojitsu - Great post, thanks for the read, and I agree with your points--the OP is the kind of post that I hope Bioware and EA are noticing.

My faith and opinion of Bioware has been slipping for a while now (even before DA2). Though the ME universe is amazing, their NPC development is excellent and their storylines are (mostly) good, there were a fair number of minor WTF-design issues in the first 2 ME games, IMO.  Then DA2 came out, and now we have the MST3K ending for the ME trilogy.

I'm hoping that all of the recent attention will result in some internal soul-searching in both Bioware and EA.  IMO, most of the bad decisions in recent Bioware games stink of bad management, and they need to learn to listen to their devs if they want to keep Bioware's reputation intact.

Unfortunately if they continue to play by the dummy's guide to marketing and management, what we'll see is an effort to control perception rather than to fix production.  (If a car tires are exploding, the modern corporate approach is to work on fixing public perception of thecompany, rather than to fix the tire's design and production.)  But I'm hopeful that some fo the fan feedback will actually penetrate, somewhere.

[DnVill]

Daidarus wrote...



^Above is one example of a lie told by a Bioware dev, there are others as well if anyone has the time or incentive to research a little bit. The point I'm trying to make is the fact that quite a few major lies were put out there by Bioware and that is what I have come to expect from Bioware, lies and disappointment. I thought maybe it was just a fluke with DA2's un-rpgness (<That's another discussion) but I was wrong. The ME3 endings made me lose almost all of my respect for a company, whose products I used to love, because of all the lies surrounding it.

this.

[tenojitsu]

drewelow wrote...

@tenojitsu - Great post, thanks for the read, and I agree with your points--the OP is the kind of post that I hope Bioware and EA are noticing.

My faith and opinion of Bioware has been slipping for a while now (even before DA2). Though the ME universe is amazing, their NPC development is excellent and their storylines are (mostly) good, there were a fair number of minor WTF-design issues in the first 2 ME games, IMO.  Then DA2 came out, and now we have the MST3K ending for the ME trilogy.

I'm hoping that all of the recent attention will result in some internal soul-searching in both Bioware and EA.  IMO, most of the bad decisions in recent Bioware games stink of bad management, and they need to learn to listen to their devs if they want to keep Bioware's reputation intact.

Unfortunately if they continue to play by the dummy's guide to marketing and management, what we'll see is an effort to control perception rather than to fix production.  (If a car tires are exploding, the modern corporate approach is to work on fixing public perception of thecompany, rather than to fix the tire's design and production.)  But I'm hopeful that some fo the fan feedback will actually penetrate, somewhere.

We can only hope they do the right thing