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[tenojitsu]

Opsrbest wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...

Daidarus wrote...



^Above is one example of a lie told by a Bioware dev, there are others as well if anyone has the time or incentive to research a little bit. The point I'm trying to make is the fact that quite a few major lies were put out there by Bioware and that is what I have come to expect from Bioware, lies and disappointment. I thought maybe it was just a fluke with DA2's un-rpgness (<That's another discussion) but I was wrong. The ME3 endings made me lose almost all of my respect for a company, whose products I used to love, because of all the lies surrounding it.

As Harbinger would say, "this hurts me"

The r,g,b is an aspect of gameplay design to end the story. The issue isn't that its a trilinear ending its how bioware chooses to show the ending.



Each option available has a positive and negative effect that is shown. There are minimal differences within each ending however so it's easy for people to not notice it.

The endings of ME3 do suck. But not for any reason that has been or ever will be posted on these forums.

Just curious, but why will the reason the for the endings being bad never be mentioned in foum? Since apparently nobody on the forum has any clue, coukd you please enlighten us?

EDIT: Personally, I think the fact that Casey explicitly mentioned it wont be an A, B, C ending makes the fact that the ending is trilinear a big issue.

Casey can indeed make the statement that a trilinear ending isn't being offered in ME3 because in reality it's not. You are given three end game scenarios which are the r,g,b, design element of the game. And then you have the EMS score which affects those endings by altering two of the specific scenarios in 3 seperate manners. That is what I mean. The ending as it is isn't based on an r,g,b factor. It's based on you ems score. The resolution of the ending for the player is the r,g,b option.

That is what I mean in response to your first question and to your edit.

Yeaahhh, I'm still not following you. You've talked about an r,b,g factor and the impact of the EMS score. Despite your EMS score, the endings are 95% the same in each case. No arguing that point. Of course the ending isnt really based off of r,g,b, because they are all nearly identical. War assets do so little to the ending its very easy to not even notice.

Is this really your explanation to what is wrong with the ending, talking about r, g, b factors and the extremely minor tweaks to the ending that EMS provides? I'm still perplexed.

EDIT: If it is, I'll just agree to disagree and call it a day rather than going in circles.

Modifié par tenojitsu, 31 mars 2012 - 03:45 .

[marstinson]

Apologies if I'm duplicating an earlier comment, but my opinion was solicited, so here it is.

BioWare is a company. Companies exist to earn a return on the investment of their owners/partners/stockholders. They do this by producing something for which others are willing to exchange money. In the final analysis, the question is whether the return exceeded the investment. If so, it's called a profit and you try to repeat whatever generated it. If not, it's called a loss. If the loss is survivable, you try not to repeat it. This is not meant to suggest that the people of the company do not take pride in producing whatever it is that the company produces, but only that the thing produced must be produced profitably for the company to remain in business. 

EA, BioWare's parent company, realized revenues of about a billion during the last quarter of fiscal 2011, with about half of that being gross profit (revenues minus cost of goods sold). Operating expenses of 692 million brought that down to a net loss of a bit over 200 million after taxes are factored in. Those losses are significanly lower than their 4Q fiscal 2010 losses. The first quarter of the current fiscal year doesn't end until tomorrow, so the impact of ME3 sales on the bigger picture won't show up until the accounting folks work their magic and report, likely around the beginning of May. EA's stock price today (16.49) is no different today than it was immediately pre-ME3 (16.49), although it did see a significant uptick in the week or two post-release and a long slide since. I don't know that a single game, out of all of EA's operations, would account for that, although it is not outside the realm of possibility. The short version would be that it's highly unlikely that any losses associated with this one title would significantly impact the bigger corporate picture, although it might diminish the value of the Mass Effect IP and franchise. So he's likely quite right regarding EA support. Reaction to ME3 might be dissapointing, but it's not a game-ender.

To the rest of his comment, it warms the ****les (EDIT: it seems that the purity sniffer takes exception to this particular variety of mollusk) of my heart to hear that the developers are passionate about their product. Most developers are and I see no reason why BioWare would be any different in that regard. But in many ways, it's like a joke that you think is a real knee-slapper, but the listener has a puzzled look on their face when it's over. What the developers believed to have been sheer awesomeness from start to finish seems to have fallen flat with some, and I include myself among them.

What needs to happen, first and foremost, is that BioWare needs to do something that will make me want to open my wallet and contribute again to that billions-plus revenue stream. I've added my $70 and am not even hot under the collar over the whole first-day DLC issue. I'll confess to being severely put out over the tie-in between the online and single-player campaigns, though. If I wanted to play online multiplayer, there are lots of options out there, ME3 is far down the list and I don't appreciate having it foisted off on me as a requirement to get the "best" of bad endings.

As things stand now, I'm not willing to contribute anything else to that revenue stream because the whole ending mess makes it a rather pointless endeavor. New weapons and gear? New companions? New outfits? New missions? Why bother? No matter what gets tacked on, it's still the same outcome. They all come down to fancier ways of getting to diappointment.

Modifié par marstinson, 31 mars 2012 - 03:48 .

[tenojitsu]

marstinson wrote...

Apologies if I'm duplicating an earlier comment, but my opinion was solicited, so here it is.

BioWare is a company. Companies exist to earn a return on the investment of their owners/partners/stockholders. They do this by producing something for which others are willing to exchange money. In the final analysis, the question is whether the return exceeded the investment. If so, it's called a profit and you try to repeat whatever generated it. If not, it's called a loss. If the loss is survivable, you try not to repeat it. This is not meant to suggest that the people of the company do not take pride in producing whatever it is that the company produces, but only that the thing produced must be produced profitably for the company to remain in business. 

EA, BioWare's parent company, realized revenues of about a billion during the last quarter of fiscal 2011, with about half of that being gross profit (revenues minus cost of goods sold). Operating expenses of 692 million brought that down to a net loss of a bit over 200 million after taxes are factored in. Those losses are significanly lower than their 4Q fiscal 2010 losses. The first quarter of the current fiscal year doesn't end until tomorrow, so the impact of ME3 sales on the bigger picture won't show up until the accounting folks work their magic and report, likely around the beginning of May. EA's stock price today (16.49) is no different today than it was immediately pre-ME3 (16.49), although it did see a significant uptick in the week or two post-release and a long slide since. I don't know that a single game, out of all of EA's operations, would account for that, although it is not outside the realm of possibility. The short version would be that it's highly unlikely that any losses associated with this one title would significantly impact the bigger corporate picture, although it might diminish the value of the Mass Effect IP and franchise. So he's likely quite right regarding EA support. Reaction to ME3 might be dissapointing, but it's not a game-ender.

To the rest of his comment, it warms the ****les (EDIT: it seems that the purity sniffer takes exception to this particular variety of mollusk) of my heart to hear that the developers are passionate about their product. Most developers are and I see no reason why BioWare would be any different in that regard. But in many ways, it's like a joke that you think is a real knee-slapper, but the listener has a puzzled look on their face when it's over. What the developers believed to have been sheer awesomeness from start to finish seems to have fallen flat with some, and I include myself among them.

What needs to happen, first and foremost, is that BioWare needs to do something that will make me want to open my wallet and contribute again to that billions-plus revenue stream. I've added my $70 and am not even hot under the collar over the whole first-day DLC issue. I'll confess to being severely put out over the tie-in between the online and single-player campaigns, though. If I wanted to play online multiplayer, there are lots of options out there, ME3 is far down the list and I don't appreciate having it foisted off on me as a requirement to get the "best" of bad endings.

As things stand now, I'm not willing to contribute anything else to that revenue stream because the whole ending mess makes it a rather pointless endeavor. New weapons and gear? New companions? New outfits? New missions? Why bother? No matter what gets tacked on, it's still the same outcome. They all come down to fancier ways of getting to diappointment.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or saying that I stole your idea. Thats because what we're saying is so similiar, aside from you defining profit, loss, and giving us EA's financial numbers.

Modifié par tenojitsu, 31 mars 2012 - 03:53 .

[marstinson]

tenojitsu wrote...


I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or saying that I stole your idea. Thats because what we're saying is so similiar, aside from you defining profit, loss, and giving us EA's financial numbers.

I'm pretty much agreeing with you. Just arriving by a slightly different route.

[tenojitsu]

marstinson wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...


I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or saying that I stole your idea. Thats because what we're saying is so similiar, aside from you defining profit, loss, and giving us EA's financial numbers.

I'm pretty much agreeing with you. Just arriving by a slightly different route.

It's not about the journey, but the destination (is that right, lol ) Welcome aboard!

[tenojitsu]

Thank's to everyone for all the great comments! Anyone else care to comment on the opening post?

Modifié par tenojitsu, 31 mars 2012 - 04:51 .

[KingKhan03]

tenojitsu wrote...

Thank's to everyone for all the great comments! Anyone else care to comment on the opening post?

I hated the endings but now I just feel bad for the Mass Effect series it has suffered alot. The Mass Effect series has been just the best gaming experience of my life and the way it ended just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. If EA has indeed rushed them or put other pressures on them I hope they realize it was wrong to rush a game like Mass Effect.

[elodar11]

Enjoying the thread.  I'd like to add my thoughts.

I too remember the first Star Wars.   Wow!!!!    As a science fiction/fantasy fan I loved those movies.  To watch them now, they seem pretty dated.  But, they opened the door to today's amazing movie making.

I now have an even more enjoyable way to enjoy my sci fi and fantasy hobby.  Video games.  I enjoy the interactive element not available in books and movies. 

And one day I heard about a game called Dragon Age: Origins.  Wow!!!   I had to play it over and over again to experience every possible beginning and every possible ending.  I had found fantasy heaven.  I had found Bioware.

Then they released ME2 and wow again.  I had to get ME1 and play both of them over and over again.

Since then I have purchased and played both DA2 and ME3.  They were good, but the bar had been set so high by the previous games, that I find they pale in comparison.  I had to push myself to complete a second play through of each of these recent games. 

What has changed at Bioware?  Is it EA's impact on their approach?  Or are they just having a tough time living up to past glories?

It could certainly be that their focus is changing from great product development to great product marketing.  If they had put the same energy that they put into marketing ME3 into producing the ending..........   well these forums would all be saying "wow!!!".

Unfortunately, that's not the case.  Instead, we are all soul searching to determine what our future enthusiasm will be for Bioware and their products.

I miss the old days when I couldn't wait for the next Bioware release.

[tenojitsu]

elodar11 wrote...

Enjoying the thread.  I'd like to add my thoughts.

I too remember the first Star Wars.   Wow!!!!    As a science fiction/fantasy fan I loved those movies.  To watch them now, they seem pretty dated.  But, they opened the door to today's amazing movie making.

I now have an even more enjoyable way to enjoy my sci fi and fantasy hobby.  Video games.  I enjoy the interactive element not available in books and movies. 

And one day I heard about a game called Dragon Age: Origins.  Wow!!!   I had to play it over and over again to experience every possible beginning and every possible ending.  I had found fantasy heaven.  I had found Bioware.

Then they released ME2 and wow again.  I had to get ME1 and play both of them over and over again.

Since then I have purchased and played both DA2 and ME3.  They were good, but the bar had been set so high by the previous games, that I find they pale in comparison.  I had to push myself to complete a second play through of each of these recent games. 

What has changed at Bioware?  Is it EA's impact on their approach?  Or are they just having a tough time living up to past glories?

It could certainly be that their focus is changing from great product development to great product marketing.  If they had put the same energy that they put into marketing ME3 into producing the ending..........   well these forums would all be saying "wow!!!".

Unfortunately, that's not the case.  Instead, we are all soul searching to determine what our future enthusiasm will be for Bioware and their products.

I miss the old days when I couldn't wait for the next Bioware release.

Very well said, and thanks for taking the time to respond

[elodar11]

I would also like to address MP.

I work with people all day.  Nothing against them, most of them are awesome.  But some evenings, I get to leave the rest of the world behind and play video games.  So I'm not interested in socializing and/or interacting with others.  I just want to escape into a good fiction/story for a while.  Besides, I get to interact with Garrus and Liara.

So, please don't make me have to play MP in order to have a complete game experience.  In fact, the requirement to use MP to achieve the "breathing" ending makes me rebel and not want to play it.  If it were strictly optional, I may stretch out of my comfort zone and try it out some day. 

My belief about getting the most revenue from the product is this:  sell me a complete and quality product that lives up to your advertisements/promises.  And I will be happy to buy more product from you. 

[tenojitsu]

elodar11 wrote...

I would also like to address MP.

I work with people all day.  Nothing against them, most of them are awesome.  But some evenings, I get to leave the rest of the world behind and play video games.  So I'm not interested in socializing and/or interacting with others.  I just want to escape into a good fiction/story for a while.  Besides, I get to interact with Garrus and Liara.

So, please don't make me have to play MP in order to have a complete game experience.  In fact, the requirement to use MP to achieve the "breathing" ending makes me rebel and not want to play it.  If it were strictly optional, I may stretch out of my comfort zone and try it out some day. 

My belief about getting the most revenue from the product is this:  sell me a complete and quality product that lives up to your advertisements/promises.  And I will be happy to buy more product from you. 

Ithis

[tenojitsu]

Any other thoughts before I pass out for the night?

[Hunter_Wolf]

tenojitsu wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

I really like and TRUSTED the studio.

Nice post. The only problem I had was the above. Bioware is a company. Companies exist to make money. So long as what im buying is quality, im willing to pay. You shouldnt trust a company to ask for anything less.

I guess what I was trying to say was that move to integrate mulitplayer into single player made me much more cautious about how far they would go to make money. Agreed, companies exist to be profitable, but to what lengths they will go is what is in question here. It's like a typical paragon/renegade response, where choice matters. +5 renegade on the decision to make multiplayer influence single player

Well unfortunately you have nobody to blame but yourself for ending up in  this situation. They aren't evil by any means, they're people just like you and me who are trying to pay their bills. The problem is people, such as yourself, hold them up to such high esteem that when they appear almost human... mistakes happen and people are astonished or surprised. I didn't like most of the presentation to ME2 but that was to be expected, they were busy trying to adjust with design changes and choices while attempting to divulge further into supporting character development and personal story. 

I have a few friends who refused to believe Bioware were ever capable of messing up so bad. And then DA2 came out and they were... for lack of a better description, set into a state of shock. They just couldn't believe it. That's because they look  to them as great-as-can-be and refuse to accept the reality. And that is the reality, they're people trying to make money.

Modifié par Hunter_Wolf, 31 mars 2012 - 07:59 .

[tenojitsu]

Hunter_Wolf wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

I really like and TRUSTED the studio.

Nice post. The only problem I had was the above. Bioware is a company. Companies exist to make money. So long as what im buying is quality, im willing to pay. You shouldnt trust a company to ask for anything less.

I guess what I was trying to say was that move to integrate mulitplayer into single player made me much more cautious about how far they would go to make money. Agreed, companies exist to be profitable, but to what lengths they will go is what is in question here. It's like a typical paragon/renegade response, where choice matters. +5 renegade on the decision to make multiplayer influence single player

Well unfortunately you have nobody to blame but yourself for ending up in  this situation. They aren't evil by any means, they're people just like you and me who are trying to pay their bills. The problem is people, such as yourself, hold them up to such high esteem that when they appear almost human... mistakes happen and people are astonished or surprised. I didn't like most of the presentation to ME2 but that was to be expected, they were busy trying to adjust with design changes and choices while attempting to divulge further into supporting character development and personal story. 

I have a few friends who refused to believe Bioware were ever capable of messing up so bad. And then DA2 came out and they were... for lack of a better description, set into a state of shock. They just couldn't believe it. That's because they look  to them as great-as-can-be and refuse to accept the reality. And that is the reality, they're people trying to make money.

Last time I checked I didnt really have a vote in the creation of multiplayer, or that fact that is tied to single player. Agreed mistakes happen when doing anything, and they are forgiveable. Shepard turning his head back and forth and failing to look at Liara during their first conversation on the Nornanday is a mistake, and I'm ok with that. But thinking that the decision to require multiplayer to experience certain aspects of the single player as a simple "mistake" and not a well thought out, deliberate decision sounds a bit naive at best, in my opinion. As far as being surpised that this decision was made, I'm not sure if thats true either. Disappointed, concerned, disgusted, perhaps are more appropriate for how I feel about it.

[tenojitsu]

shameful bump

[mrgeth]

100% agree and back the OP!

[Slappy Ya Face]

A good post. Well said.

[Yakko77]

Well said OP. A heartfelt and constructive message IMO. As for the end, I wouldn't mind happy ending as a option but otherwise I just want a end that makes sense, fits Mass Effect and has closure, not a the end which makes no sense, introduces some character in the last 10 minutes that turns everything on its head and leaves more questions than answers.

[Yakko77]

tenojitsu wrote...

Chk-2000 wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...

HITMAN629 wrote...

Well put OP, Bioware has been pretty hushhush as of late, I wonder what (if anything) April holds.

Pretty sure we'll hear about that Omega DLC and multiplayer DLC. I doubt they'll discuss the ending, but hopefully Im wrong

They'll have to address the ending discussion. Imagine the uproar if they don't. If we hear something definite about fixing the endings is another matter.

If I hear, "We are listening to feedback and taking everything into consideration" I will absolutely lose my mind, lol.

"Soon."

[tenojitsu]

Yakko77 wrote...

Well said OP. A heartfelt and constructive message IMO. As for the end, I wouldn't mind happy ending as a option but otherwise I just want a end that makes sense, fits Mass Effect and has closure, not a the end which makes no sense, introduces some character in the last 10 minutes that turns everything on its head and leaves more questions than answers.

I dont see why there couldnt be a happy ending either. I mean, come on, it's a video game. If I really needed some super artsy ending to my entertainment I'd read a book. I think people play video games for fun, not to hear some "profound" message the game is trying to tell. I dont think the creators Super Mario Bros, The Legend of Zelda, Halo, and COD were looking to have some sort of social impact with an overly artsy approach. They make fun games. People buy them. Lots of them.

[tenojitsu]

Yakko77 wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...

Chk-2000 wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...

HITMAN629 wrote...

Well put OP, Bioware has been pretty hushhush as of late, I wonder what (if anything) April holds.

Pretty sure we'll hear about that Omega DLC and multiplayer DLC. I doubt they'll discuss the ending, but hopefully Im wrong

They'll have to address the ending discussion. Imagine the uproar if they don't. If we hear something definite about fixing the endings is another matter.

If I hear, "We are listening to feedback and taking everything into consideration" I will absolutely lose my mind, lol.

"Soon."

It would be nice if a dev popped in here just to acknowledge that they read it.

Modifié par tenojitsu, 31 mars 2012 - 05:29 .

[tenojitsu]

mrgeth wrote...

100% agree and back the OP!

It's nice to have friends

[Fulgrim88]

Why do I always miss the awesome Dev responses? Sucks living in Europe

As for the OP: I would love to blame it on "the suits" and there IS that convenient relation between "the time when EA took over" and "the time when Bioware started to rush their games/cater to the mass market".

However, I'm no longer sure it's quite that easy...

Anyway, it seems like a heartfelt, honest post and adresses a very important issue; namely the vast difference between what we were told to expect, and what we got.
Even though it sickens me to read these promises now, it does show that at some point, Bioware knew perfectly well how to create the ending we wish for.

And I hope it means they still know it, and they can still deliver. So pulling that string and reminding them of what they used to say seems like the right thing to do

[tenojitsu]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Why do I always miss the awesome Dev responses? Sucks living in Europe

As for the OP: I would love to blame it on "the suits" and there IS that convenient relation between "the time when EA took over" and "the time when Bioware started to rush their games/cater to the mass market".

However, I'm no longer sure it's quite that easy...

Anyway, it seems like a heartfelt, honest post and adresses a very important issue; namely the vast difference between what we were told to expect, and what we got.
Even though it sickens me to read these promises now, it does show that at some point, Bioware knew perfectly well how to create the ending we wish for.

And I hope it means they still know it, and they can still deliver. So pulling that string and reminding them of what they used to say seems like the right thing to do

I am still waiting for the awesome dev response as well, and I'm in the US.