100 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

Kileyan wrote...
Devs: Sorry, the want for these features was unexpected, we don' t have the time or the technology in place to add those features in. Maybe post release!
 

I know you said this doesn't apply specifically to DA, but I'll point out that you're misrepresenting our position there.

The want for those features is not unexpected. But the fact that people want these things does not translate into them being cheap -- especially when they don't align with the goal of the game we're making. Should we make an RPG focused around riding horses? Maybe you think we should... but if we aren't, where does that leave plans for mounts? As soon as you have mounts you have the need for wide open spaces in which to use them, as well as plots where they are important. You need to consider what happens to the mounts when you're in spaces where they aren't used, how they affect combat, how your party members use them and pathfind with them (unless you don't have a party, at which point that's not an issue). Regardless, it is not a trivial feature. It's something that's going to need to be taken into consideration at every level of design in the game.

Maybe you really think we should do that even so. We don't, but us not thinking that it's worth the resources it would take is not the same as us saying, "gee we didn't know anybody wanted it. Maybe next time!"

Insofar as ambient horses go -- we could have done that, yes. The only objection to that idea is the kind of short-sighted attitude that would lead people to go, "Well you have horses in the game already! Geez, what's the problem with letting us ride them?!" It's like dangling that carrot in front of them and then snatching it away. Most people, after all, don't consider the fact that putting a character on a horse model is not a matter of simply picking the model up and dropping it on their back. Naturally mounted models can be done -- it's not a question of technology. It's a question of benefit for the time spent. One can compare horses to ambient chickens if they like, but that's sort of missing the point.

[Shadowraven9]

tmp7704 wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

Though, it's kinda funny assuming that Bodahn and Sandal carry their cart around by themselves. 

What a silly idea. The cart is ENCHANTED!

And by "enchanted" you mean Sandal carries the cart, while Bodahn sits there an does abosolutley noyhing, Right?

[The Angry One]

For that matter who carries all your camp equipment, food, tents, firewood, that bizarre outhouse for Morrigan. Is it Shale?

[Curlain]

The Angry One wrote...

For that matter who carries all your camp equipment, food, tents, firewood, that bizarre outhouse for Morrigan. Is it Shale?

It's Schmooples

[tmp7704]

I thought it just sort of appears there whenever you feel tired on the road. Like you know, the camp in Brecilian Forest...

[Brian Chung]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Actually I do know. Creating a high poly horse + rigging is one of the things you learn how to do in both Maya and 3DSMax at an Art Institute. Since DA already has four legged creatures (ox) it'd take a day to push the polygones around to make it a horse, then possibly several more days to adapt the rigging, skin, bump maps, and so on. The animation may take a full week to do, but the only hard part would be implementing the coding needed. And setting up an invisible dummy character to set as the horse rider, that registers what armor and textures the npcs getting on the horse is wearing... but I'm getting sidetracked. Depending on how Bioware devides the work, you really only need one dedicated worker who knows his stuff.

Come to think of it, I could probably import the models I've made in the past myself once they get the toolset fixed. >.>

The basic point I've been trying to make is that no, it wouldn't take long to implement, except for possibly the coding part, and even then Bioware already has access to a past game of their's that did include horses.

In my experience, having actually worked on the horse system for NWN, a lot of people rarely realize how long it really takes in game development, due to factors like iterative processes or changing systems.  But if you can pull it off in 2 weeks, I expect to see your resume and demo reel of horses in HR's in box before Christmas.  Don't forget, gotta do it from scratch, no cheating with reusing old assests.

It won't take a day to model a horse, no matter how good you are.  It took me about a month for NWN, incluiding when I ended up scrapping the existing model as the legs and body weren't structured properly to support the animation rig.  Part of the wasted dev time is realizing when something won't work and having to redo it, versus continuing on with an broken system.  And that was for NWN where things were "simpler" - for DA:O, you'd have to also worry about normal and specular maps.  Heck, a detail mesh for a horse would probably take the artist a couple weeks.

Animations will take much longer.  First off, ox move quite differently than horses, and you're not just animating one horse, you're also animating the rider too.  Add in combat animations for horse, sword, sword and shield, two-handed, dual-wield, bow, crossbow, and casting spells.  Oh yeah, and mounting, dismounting, forced dismounting, and ambient animations.  Oh, and if it's in DAO, now we have to do conversation cutscenes and check if they're mounted or not.  ALL of the conversations.  Oh, and now we also have to deal with different rider sizes, do we have dwarves on horses or shrink the horse to a donkey size so animations stay scaled?  Oh, and you also have to adjust all the regular combat animations to be angled upwards if they're fighting a mounted foe.

Add the jousting mini-game and getting exploding lances to work.

Part way, the system we were going to use for applying the horse to the rider changed (as robe to as tail), so take another week or two to redesign the models and adjust up all the necessary data files to account for this change.

That's just the asset creation, scripting would probably take the same amount of time, due to handling the horse AI, interaction in and out of combat, going from exteriors to interiors and checking that the work is involved in the scope of the game design.  The NWN module that features horses, WyvernCrown of Cormyr, was designed to make use of it for combat and quests and such, so there was a reason to make and use horses.

[reddragon567]

Well you have chickens in the game already! Geez, what's the problem with letting us ride them?!

[EricHVela]

reddragon567 wrote...

Well you have chickens in the game already! Geez, what's the problem with letting us ride them?!

I was thinking more about wolves, but I decided that squirrels were more appropriate.


I'm gonna play apologist here and say: "Just request them for next time. It's not like the game was destroyed without them this time."

Next time, they'll have some resources already available so they may have some time to work on piddly things like mounts for NPCs... and multi-sourced, blended, real-time dynamic shadows for terrain, props and mobs. Minor things. (I'm being sarcastic. I'll be the first to vouch for things that *seem* simple can often be not, especially with high technology.)

[Adria Teksuni]

Mr. Gaider and Mr. Chung, thank you for the well thought out explanations.



Making a horse structure and skin is one thing. Implementing it in a GAME is quite another. Learn of what you speak, young padawan.

[AndrewN]

reddragon567 wrote...

Well you have chickens in the game already! Geez, what's the problem with letting us ride them?!

Hey, you can ride ostriches in Runes of Magic (and ferrets, tigers and rhinos (and horses but they are boring)) so why can't I here?   I want my floaty ferret thing, I am sure he will be happy in the deep roads.



P.S. I am more than happy with no mounts, the above post was satire.

[Adria Teksuni]

Ooh! Ooh! I want ferrets too!!!!

[kevinwastaken]

The dev responses here are very informative. I really appreciate that, especially considering they could just ignore this whole discussion.



It's really cool to get insight from the people who create the things you enjoy.

[Adria Teksuni]

Please remember this is coming from a self proclaimed Bioware Fangurl.

But the company interaction with the community is one of the things I like so much about them.

[TheRealIncarnal]

Horses are difficult.

It's such a complex issue that there's an entire game that revolves around it ("Mount & Blade" is a very good game), and it's a pretty full game just in the cavalry combat.

Although I did find it odd that there were never any horses, Bioware clearly did to, as they constantly mention off screen horses, such as in the Stone Prisoner DLC.

Would it have been nice to have horses in the game? Sure, I guess, but I don't think anyone would have made a thread in appreciation of it. It's a minor thing lacking from the game's background, but it's no major issue.

If Bioware had taken the time to fully flesh out the game, they could have worked on it forever!

Let's just be happy that the game is great and it's here. I wouldn't be suprised if they have horses in DA:O2 or whatever the inevitable sequel is going to be. If you want to see what a real rushed game is like, go play some Obsidian games, KotOR2 being a great example.

[LokiHades]

I think they could've left horse models in for immersion's sake. I mean, do Bodahn and Sandal, as well as almost everyone else with a cart in game [Extremely minor spoiler: Except that guy who "sells" you the control rod, since he has a donkey you don't see] not have horses to tow their carts? And Cavalry would've been lovely to see in cutscenes, though on the technical side, a pain to do, and not worth the time and money spent, just for two scenes. Honestly, I'd love to see someone mod in animated models just for the sake of them being there.

[Adria Teksuni]

*fervently wishes anyone who is going to mod in horses the best of luck and patience, they'll need it*

[Curlain]

Why are there no griffons in Cutscenes, that's my question?

Modifié par Curlain, 08 décembre 2009 - 02:48 .

[Vaeliorin]

AndrewN wrote...

reddragon567 wrote...
Well you have chickens in the game already! Geez, what's the problem with letting us ride them?!

Hey, you can ride ostriches in Runes of Magic (and ferrets, tigers and rhinos (and horses but they are boring)) so why can't I here?   I want my floaty ferret thing, I am sure he will be happy in the deep roads.



P.S. I am more than happy with no mounts, the above post was satire.

Everyone knows the proper mount for the Deep Roads would be that weird mushroom one. :happy:

[owl208]

I'm a bit confused. I thought horses were mentioned in the Mubari Hound creature section of the journal. It specifically stated that the hounds could knock the knights off their horses....

This would then mean then that horses not only existed in Ferelden, but that they had to exist in sufficient quantity so as to be commonplace, otherwise knights wouldn't ride them into battle because there wouldn't be enough of them to outfit an army and replace loses that are bound to occur as part of military attrition. Horses wouldn't be a viable part of current military doctrine if they weren't renewable and sustainable.  So why don't we see stables, etc?  No Liveries...not even any hitching posts or corrals.

Modifié par owl208, 08 décembre 2009 - 04:11 .

[Dark83]

Perhaps it was Ferelden hounds knocking off Orlesian knights?

[Ulrik the Slayer]

Mabari-mounted dwarven cavarly..?

[Maconbar]

The Angry One wrote...

Hey I like NWN2, I also like KotOR2 for that matter, but both were rushed as hell because Obsidian lacks any sort of backbone when it comes to dealing with their publishers.

KOTOR2 was the most clearly rushed game that I ever played.

[KalosCast]

Maconbar wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Hey I like NWN2, I also like KotOR2 for that matter, but both were rushed as hell because Obsidian lacks any sort of backbone when it comes to dealing with their publishers.

KOTOR2 was the most clearly rushed game that I ever played.

You have been exceptionally lucky then. There's a Sonic the Hedgehog game that was so rushed, the game manual teaches you how to use cut features.

[ChickenDownUnder]

Brian Chung wrote...

In my experience, having actually worked on the horse system for NWN, a lot of people rarely realize how long it really takes in game development, due to factors like iterative processes or changing systems.  But if you can pull it off in 2 weeks, I expect to see your resume and demo reel of horses in HR's in box before Christmas.  Don't forget, gotta do it from scratch, no cheating with reusing old assests.

The example I used was in regards to already having a base to work with... >.> And damnit, nobody does a demo-reel of completely new models unless they're straight out of college.

I just may hold you to that demo-reel before Christmas though, just to show it is possible. And despite being pretty happy with the current company I work for, in a non-showing-off way of course, even though it is showing off I suppose....

And I'm using Maya da**it. It's a great deal easier and faster to create organic objects in Maya then in Max, especially when it comes to unwrapping objects. Tends to crash less when it comes to rendering scenes as well, though maybe its just me.

It won't take a day to model a horse, no matter how good you are.  It took me about a month for NWN, incluiding when I ended up scrapping the existing model as the legs and body weren't structured properly to support the animation rig.  Part of the wasted dev time is realizing when something won't work and having to redo it, versus continuing on with an broken system.  And that was for NWN where things were "simpler" - for DA:O, you'd have to also worry about normal and specular maps.  Heck, a detail mesh for a horse would probably take the artist a couple weeks.

Of course it'd take you longer starting completely from scratch. Especially if you did so more than one time.

Animations will take much longer.  First off, ox move quite differently than horses, and you're not just animating one horse, you're also animating the rider too.  Add in combat animations for horse, sword, sword and shield, two-handed, dual-wield, bow, crossbow, and casting spells.  Oh yeah, and mounting, dismounting, forced dismounting, and ambient animations.  Oh, and if it's in DAO, now we have to do conversation cutscenes and check if they're mounted or not.  ALL of the conversations.  Oh, and now we also have to deal with different rider sizes, do we have dwarves on horses or shrink the horse to a donkey size so animations stay scaled?  Oh, and you also have to adjust all the regular combat animations to be angled upwards if they're fighting a mounted foe.

The example I used was for cutscenes, especially the one that another poster in this thread brought up, which is basically just charging across a field. The main key frames of which should only take a day. Albeit a very long, tedious day, but just a day. With the rest of the week including any subtilties and so on to make the animation less blocky. Now, if you are trying to animate something one frame at a time without tangents and curves, then I understand why it would take so long. Actually, that would be impossible to do.

I am in no way trying to downplay your own accomplishments, or trying to jump up my own. I didn't sign on this forum to do that. If I wanted to show off my l33t skillz I'd bring my nurf gun to work again and shoot my boss when he isn't looking, and get away with it. Sure, he may get me back later with that squishy bat he keeps on his desk, but very few can claim to be able to snipe their boss.

[Ariella]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

Ooh! Ooh! I want ferrets too!!!!

Wait, don't we have at least one Ferret in game?