650 réponses à ce sujet

[Rafe34]

The Razman wrote...

And we remember emotional kicks in the gut. For a very, very long time. I don't think I'll ever forget a screen fading to black with that strong girl I've spent three whole games with sobbing hysterically over her father's dead body saying "Please don't leave me".

But you can't have that long-lasting kick in the gut following you around in your memory if you can flip a switch and play the happy ending instead, where Tali's alive and everything's good. That will take precedent in your mind when you think back on the experience. You'll choose to believe the good ending, whether you consciously think about it or not. Because our minds always want to run away from the bad emotions which make tragedy so heart-breaking.

If it's going to stay with you ... it has to be unavoidable.

And this is where you are projecting your feelings onto others.

This is simply not true for most of us on here.

Modifié par Rafe34, 31 mars 2012 - 02:23 .

[DigitalAvatar]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Deaths count if it's a choice YOU have to make to get what you want. Sacrificing Wrex and the Krogan ground forces in order to secure your LI's safety, for example, would be something that MATTERS.

Okay, that would be AWESOME. Massive choice which would sacrifice one of your oldest buddies, possibly make the final battle much more difficult without krogan ground support (if that ever actually mattered in the final battle...), and on top of that could drastically affect what happens to the krogan civilisation in the epligoue. What a choice.
That's the kind of thing the game deserves.

Modifié par DigitalAvatar, 31 mars 2012 - 02:21 .

[DeinonSlayer]

The Razman wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I assume that's Half-Life 2 you're referring to? classic, but, again, linear.

This is a game based on choices. I'm willing to make trade-offs. Kaidan or Ashley? Wrex or Mordin? It's great, and I'm motivated to do multiple play-throughs to see what's different. I appreciate the need for balance. But, that said, none of the existing endings is worth fighting for. I view them the same way I view the destruction of the Migrant Fleet: a brick wall in the plot which saps my will to keep going after being rammed through it.

It's linearity doesn't negate the point. If the same plot point happened in a non-linear fashion, and you could prevent that death from happening ... it wouldn't be the classic, tragic emotional moment we all remember it as.

Any tragic ending where Sheperd had to die was going to colour people's replay experiences. That's just something that happened as a result of the creative decision they took. I don't see why that's the "wrong" choice.

That's just it - it hurts replay value, and that will hurt DLC sales. DLC should enrich the experience - it shouldn't simply prolong the walk off the end of the plank. Half-Life 2 didn't make the mistake of making the bittersweet so bitter as to put off the fanbase and destroy the future of the franchise. I look forward to Episode 3... if they ever get around to it.

DigitalAvatar wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Deaths count if it's a choice YOU have to make to get what you want. Sacrificing Wrex and the Krogan ground forces in order to secure your LI's safety, for example, would be something that MATTERS.

Okay, that would be AWESOME. Massive choice which would sacrifice one of your oldest buddies, possibly make the final battle much more difficult without krogan ground support (if that ever actually mattered in the final battle...), and on top of that could drastically effect the krogan civilisation in the epligoue. What a choice. That's the kind of thing the game deserves.

Completely agree. What I had first thought was that the longer you took to actually get back to earth, the more time you spent building up your forces, the worse condition Earth would be in when you got there. It would make sense, and it'd be an interesting trade-off for playing as a completionist.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 31 mars 2012 - 02:22 .

[JBONE27]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Razman wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I assume that's Half-Life 2 you're referring to? classic, but, again, linear.

This is a game based on choices. I'm willing to make trade-offs. Kaidan or Ashley? Wrex or Mordin? It's great, and I'm motivated to do multiple play-throughs to see what's different. I appreciate the need for balance. But, that said, none of the existing endings is worth fighting for. I view them the same way I view the destruction of the Migrant Fleet: a brick wall in the plot which saps my will to keep going after being rammed through it.

It's linearity doesn't negate the point. If the same plot point happened in a non-linear fashion, and you could prevent that death from happening ... it wouldn't be the classic, tragic emotional moment we all remember it as.

Any tragic ending where Sheperd had to die was going to colour people's replay experiences. That's just something that happened as a result of the creative decision they took. I don't see why that's the "wrong" choice.

That's just it - it hurts replay value, and that will hurt DLC sales. DLC should enrich the experience - it shouldn't simply prolong the walk off the end of the plank. Half-Life 2 didn't make the mistake of making the bittersweet so bitter as to put off the fanbase and destroy the future of the franchise. I look forward to Episode 3... if they ever get around to it.

DigitalAvatar wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Deaths
count if it's a choice YOU have to make to get what you want.
Sacrificing Wrex and the Krogan ground forces in order to secure your
LI's safety, for example, would be something that MATTERS.

Okay,
that would be AWESOME. Massive choice which would sacrifice one of your
oldest buddies, possibly make the final battle much more difficult
without krogan ground support (if that ever actually mattered in the final battle...), and on top of that could drastically effect the krogan civilisation in the epligoue. What a choice.
That's the kind of thing the game deserves.

Completely agree.

I don't even think the current ending is bitter; it's confusing, and needs an epilogue telling you what just happened.

[LaWoods]

I've worked hard for my ending and I expect my hard work to be paid off. 100% everything and ensuring everything works out for the best.  Don't care what happens to Shepard as long as my ending is better than the guy who killed everyone for lulz.

Edit: Thats a lie. I care deeply about what happens to Shepard, I just want to be acknowledged for doing my best.

Modifié par LaWoods, 31 mars 2012 - 02:25 .

[Rafe34]

Raz, I've got to go, I have to get up somewhat early tomorrow and I still need to finish a paper. I will be more than happy to continue this sometime, and thanks for being civil.

[The Razman]

Rafe34 wrote...

It's part of the Mass Effect series. It IS avoidable. Can you play ME3 and not have Mordin die? Yes. Your argument doesn't work. 

Yes, they've been discussing Mordin's death more than Tali's, because more people have seen the former. Most people don't want to see the later. Your argument that this somehow takes away from it simply doesn't work. 

Let's not argue about it not being forced ... nothing you do within ME3 changes whether he lives or dies. The only situation he can possibly survive is if you've killed Wrex off in the first game, which is already an unhappy trade.

Is it not possible, for your consideration, that they've been discussing Mordin and Thane's death more because Tali's just doesn't matter ... seeing as how you can just choose not to have it happen?

Modifié par The Razman, 31 mars 2012 - 02:26 .

[The Razman]

Rafe34 wrote...

Raz, I've got to go, I have to get up somewhat early tomorrow and I still need to finish a paper. I will be more than happy to continue this sometime, and thanks for being civil.

Same to you.

[DeinonSlayer]

JBONE27 wrote...

I don't even think the current ending is bitter; it's confusing, and needs an epilogue telling you what just happened.

See the "This Hurts You" link in my sig. It does a good job explaining why people view the ending as bitter. If Bioware settles only for "clarifying" the current endings, they'll have to refute a good number of the things detailed there to improve my view of our current options.

[JBONE27]

The Razman wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

It's part of the Mass Effect series. It IS avoidable. Can you play ME3 and not have Mordin die? Yes. Your argument doesn't work. 

Yes, they've been discussing Mordin's death more than Tali's, because more people have seen the former. Most people don't want to see the later. Your argument that this somehow takes away from it simply doesn't work. 

Let's not argue about it not being forced ... nothing you do within ME3 changes whether he lives or dies. The only situation he can possibly survive is if you've killed Wrex off in the first game, which is already an unhappy trade.

Is it not possible, for your consideration, that they've been discussing Mordin and Thane's death more because Tali's just doesn't matter ... seeing as how you can just choose not to have it happen?

No, it hasn't been discussed because most people didn't know that it happened.  If your mother died while you were in hiding for years, and no one brought it up, would you know your mother died and talk about it?

Modifié par JBONE27, 31 mars 2012 - 02:34 .

[exterminator_]

so control the reapers, or synthesis ? (the third option is stupid)

[Axlesauce]

Honestly, from day one I've never expected Shepard's personal story to have a happy ending. I'll number some of the various things that indicated to me personally, that he'd have some trouble finding his "Happily ever after."

1) Unless you picked War Hero, he's pretty screwed up from the get-go. Either shoving his squad into a meat grinder, or losing dozens of friends to Thresher Maws.

2) Watched more than just a few good, close friends die. Alternatively, Killed some of them himself.

3) Death by suffocation. Even if re-built, that's gotta cause some trauma.

4) Goodbye Alpha Relay, Goodbye star-system.

The list goes on. Combine all the terrible things he/she's been through with the pressures of the entire galaxy depending on you - and you've got a perfect case of soon to be PTSD.

[JBONE27]

Axlesauce wrote...

Honestly, from day one I've never expected Shepard's personal story to have a happy ending. I'll number some of the various things that indicated to me personally, that he'd have some trouble finding his "Happily ever after."

1) Unless you picked War Hero, he's pretty screwed up from the get-go. Either shoving his squad into a meat grinder, or losing dozens of friends to Thresher Maws.

2) Watched more than just a few good, close friends die. Alternatively, Killed some of them himself.

3) Death by suffocation. Even if re-built, that's gotta cause some trauma.

4) Goodbye Alpha Relay, Goodbye star-system.

The list goes on. Combine all the terrible things he/she's been through with the pressures of the entire galaxy depending on you - and you've got a perfect case of soon to be PTSD.

And your point is?  The happy ending is Shepard and his/her crew surviving and rebuilding the galaxy, it's not that they are all happy it's that the story contiunes.

[DeinonSlayer]

Axlesauce wrote...

Honestly, from day one I've never expected Shepard's personal story to have a happy ending. I'll number some of the various things that indicated to me personally, that he'd have some trouble finding his "Happily ever after."

1) Unless you picked War Hero, he's pretty screwed up from the get-go. Either shoving his squad into a meat grinder, or losing dozens of friends to Thresher Maws.

2) Watched more than just a few good, close friends die. Alternatively, Killed some of them himself.

3) Death by suffocation. Even if re-built, that's gotta cause some trauma.

4) Goodbye Alpha Relay, Goodbye star-system.

The list goes on. Combine all the terrible things he/she's been through with the pressures of the entire galaxy depending on you - and you've got a perfect case of soon to be PTSD.

And, of course, death is the only solution to PTSD...

That's why they changed the ending of "First Blood." Rambo originally blew his own head off.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 31 mars 2012 - 02:41 .

[Father_Jerusalem]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Axlesauce wrote...

Honestly, from day one I've never expected Shepard's personal story to have a happy ending. I'll number some of the various things that indicated to me personally, that he'd have some trouble finding his "Happily ever after."

1) Unless you picked War Hero, he's pretty screwed up from the get-go. Either shoving his squad into a meat grinder, or losing dozens of friends to Thresher Maws.

2) Watched more than just a few good, close friends die. Alternatively, Killed some of them himself.

3) Death by suffocation. Even if re-built, that's gotta cause some trauma.

4) Goodbye Alpha Relay, Goodbye star-system.

The list goes on. Combine all the terrible things he/she's been through with the pressures of the entire galaxy depending on you - and you've got a perfect case of soon to be PTSD.

And, of course, death is the only solution to PTSD...

That's why they changed the ending of "First Blood." Rambo originally blew his own head off.

Flipping channels and seeing Rambo 4 on Spke TV makes me wish they had kept that ending, frankly.

[DeinonSlayer]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Axlesauce wrote...

Honestly, from day one I've never expected Shepard's personal story to have a happy ending. I'll number some of the various things that indicated to me personally, that he'd have some trouble finding his "Happily ever after."

1) Unless you picked War Hero, he's pretty screwed up from the get-go. Either shoving his squad into a meat grinder, or losing dozens of friends to Thresher Maws.

2) Watched more than just a few good, close friends die. Alternatively, Killed some of them himself.

3) Death by suffocation. Even if re-built, that's gotta cause some trauma.

4) Goodbye Alpha Relay, Goodbye star-system.

The list goes on. Combine all the terrible things he/she's been through with the pressures of the entire galaxy depending on you - and you've got a perfect case of soon to be PTSD.

And, of course, death is the only solution to PTSD...

That's why they changed the ending of "First Blood." Rambo originally blew his own head off.

Flipping channels and seeing Rambo 4 on Spke TV makes me wish they had kept that ending, frankly.

Know when to quit. Know how to quit. Death isn't the only answer.

[Axlesauce]

I'm not saying he'll be dead. I'm saying he won't be happy.

At least I'd think so. It's all up to interpretation. You know, a little thing called personal opinion.

[Hdmetz]

I believe the OP has a good point. The ME series has been about player choices and consequences. So why not have the choice for a decently happy ending? Should it be easy to get? Like hell it shouldn't. It should be something more along the lines of ME 2, but with EMS and/or paragon/renegade factoring in. The option to have one is really what matters to me. Have endings along the spectrum from terribel to happy. Not necessarily Star Wars gold medal ceremony happy, but have Shepard and his crew looking out over the rubble or something along that line.

I'd also like to see those war assets I spent so much time evading Reapers to get in the final battle. I don't know about anyone else but I'd like to see those elcor ground units taking on brutes with chainguns strapped to their backs.

[DeinonSlayer]

Axlesauce wrote...

I'm not saying he'll be dead. I'm saying he won't be happy.

At least I'd think so. It's all up to interpretation. You know, a little thing called personal opinion.

I understand, and that's cool. Nobody's getting out of it without scars - a point they hammered home throughout - but I still thought each of the LI's kind of baited you with a happy (as it gets in a ruined galaxy, anyway) ending. House on Rannoch, blue children, kicking Jacob Taylor in the balls... good times. I still think it's a goal worth shooting for. Some real variety would go a long way to restoring replay value.

[Nightwriter]

I don't understand grimdark lovers. But I'm perfectly happy to share disc space with them if we are both given the opportunity to have the endings we want. Everyone is happy. Yay.

Too bad ME3 pleases the grimdark lovers at my expense.

[JBONE27]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Axlesauce wrote...

I'm not saying he'll be dead. I'm saying he won't be happy.

At least I'd think so. It's all up to interpretation. You know, a little thing called personal opinion.

I understand, and that's cool. Nobody's getting out of it without scars - a point they hammered home throughout - but I still thought each of the LI's kind of baited you with a happy (as it gets in a ruined galaxy, anyway) ending. House on Rannoch, blue children, kicking Jacob Taylor in the balls... good times. I still think it's a goal worth shooting for. Some real variety would go a long way to restoring replay value.

Wait, you get to kick Taylor in the balls?  How?

[Han Shot First]

exterminator wrote...

so control the reapers, or synthesis ? (the third option is stupid)

Third option is the only one that makes sense.

In the first two the Reapers survive. In the Saren ending (oops...I mean Green ending) you destroy everything that makes us human, by turning everyone into a synthetic.

[JBONE27]

Nightwriter wrote...

I don't understand grimdark lovers. But I'm perfectly happy to share disc space with them if we are both given the opportunity to have the endings we want. Everyone is happy. Yay.

Too bad ME3 pleases the grimdark lovers at my expense.

And it doesn't even do that well.

[Iakus]

The Razman wrote...

And we remember emotional kicks in the gut. For a very, very long time. I don't think I'll ever forget a screen fading to black with that strong girl I've spent three whole games with sobbing hysterically over her father's dead body saying "Please don't leave me".

But you can't have that long-lasting kick in the gut following you around in your memory if you can flip a switch and play the happy ending instead, where Tali's alive and everything's good. That will take precedent in your mind when you think back on the experience. You'll choose to believe the good ending, whether you consciously think about it or not. Because our minds always want to run away from the bad emotions which make tragedy so heart-breaking.

If it's going to stay with you ... it has to be unavoidable.

No, it doesn't.  If it's done well, it doesn't matter if it's avoidable or not.

This is not a linear shooter-with-dialogue.  This is an rpg where the player gets to shape the story through Shepard's actions.  That means that a player has a vested interest in how the story turns out.  Each Shepard is our own personal Shepard.  We had a say in how the game proceeds, why should we not have  a hand in how it ends?  Many choices, many outcomes lead to much replayability

Many people play many different Shepards, space paladins, renedouches paragrades, failSheps.  People surgically take out certain party members in the Suicide Mission to see what happens.  They romance different characters, do missions in different order, take different characters on them for missions in different playthroughs.  If people want to play a tragic Shep who commits Suicide-by-Crucible in one playthrough, great!  But if they want to "run away from the bad emotions" on a different playthough and get a Shepard that lives, that should be an option too.  Perhaps it's a harder to get ending, it may require more sacrifice elsewhere, but it should be available.  Because this is our Shepard and there is no canon.

Modifié par iakus, 31 mars 2012 - 03:12 .

[DeinonSlayer]

JBONE27 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Axlesauce wrote...

I'm not saying he'll be dead. I'm saying he won't be happy.

At least I'd think so. It's all up to interpretation. You know, a little thing called personal opinion.

I understand, and that's cool. Nobody's getting out of it without scars - a point they hammered home throughout - but I still thought each of the LI's kind of baited you with a happy (as it gets in a ruined galaxy, anyway) ending. House on Rannoch, blue children, kicking Jacob Taylor in the balls... good times. I still think it's a goal worth shooting for. Some real variety would go a long way to restoring replay value.

Wait, you get to kick Taylor in the balls?  How?

None of it's in there. I'm saying it would be a happy ending, should they choose to implement it (I'm still holding out for the house, PTSD or no PTSD).

Heck, I play MShep, and I'd do it on FShep's behalf after what Taylor did.