650 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Nightwriter wrote...

I don't understand grimdark lovers. But I'm perfectly happy to share disc space with them if we are both given the opportunity to have the endings we want. Everyone is happy. Yay.

Too bad ME3 pleases the grimdark lovers at my expense.

Oh you and your wild crazy talk about options 

[Il Divo]

Nightwriter wrote...

I don't understand grimdark lovers. But I'm perfectly happy to share disc space with them if we are both given the opportunity to have the endings we want. Everyone is happy. Yay.

Too bad ME3 pleases the grimdark lovers at my expense.

I'm a grimdark lover. Mass Effect 3 did not satisfy most of us.

[Goroxx]

After watching the whole series of Farscape on Netflix for the first time here recently, I just finished the four-hour finale movie "Farscape: The Peacekeeper Wars" that wraps up the series. After it finished, both my wife and turned to each other and almost in unison said "THAT'S the kind of ending Mass Effect should have had!"

It was epic, triumphant, sad in places, uplifting in others, wrapped up the series, tied up a lot of loose threads, and by God, it had an all out, unashamedly happy ending. What a fantastic end to an admittedly quirky sci-fi show.

Why oh why couldn't Mass Effect end on that note, rather than the nihilistic emofest we were forced to suffer through for the sake of "art"? The world's crappy enough as it is...let us escape in our science fiction to someplace better.

[JBONE27]

Goroxx wrote...

After watching the whole series of Farscape on Netflix for the first time here recently, I just finished the four-hour finale movie "Farscape: The Peacekeeper Wars" that wraps up the series. After it finished, both my wife and turned to each other and almost in unison said "THAT'S the kind of ending Mass Effect should have had!"

It was epic, triumphant, sad in places, uplifting in others, wrapped up the series, tied up a lot of loose threads, and by God, it had an all out, unashamedly happy ending. What a fantastic end to an admittedly quirky sci-fi show.

Why oh why couldn't Mass Effect end on that note, rather than the nihilistic emofest we were forced to suffer through for the sake of "art"? The world's crappy enough as it is...let us escape in our science fiction to someplace better.

Or even Serenity, which has an admitidly dower ending (two of the three most likable characters die, and the big bad lives), but it was still very satisfying.  The good guys won.  Whole system is somewhat safer, and River overcame part of her crazy.  All in all it was a positive ending... I should really watch that Farscape finale though.

[TheRealJayDee]

Rafe34 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

If it's going to stay with you ... it has to be unavoidable.

And this is where you are projecting your feelings onto others.

This is simply not true for most of us on here.

Yeah, this is where you're fundamentally wrong. It was exactly that kind of unavoidability that ended up ruining every sense of emotional investment for me in DA2. There was one part of the game that actually had me on the edge of my seat, I was constantly thinking that if I might not be able to stop certain things from happening it might be very well my own fault because of past actions. But as soon as as I realized there was never anything I could have done to save a certain character and nothing I did had any influence on it I simply stopped caring.

Pure, unavoidable tragedy might work well in a game on which story the player doesn't have much influence. To a certain degree it might also work well in a game that works with more player input, but it's getting tricky there. Having little to no influence at all on the outcome of things in a game that is supposed to be heavily affected by player choice is just plain bad.

I hate to use accusatory "people like you" speeches, but I'm afraid I need to make an exception here. It's people like you, Razman, who prevent people like me from getting the gaming experience we want. In the aforementioned DA2 case the once planned "happy" solution was cut, because Bioware devs said that if a "good ending" existed, players would do everything to get it, instead of just naturally going on with the game. You seem to be one of the players they address with these decisions.

I call BS on that. Imo Games like DA and ME shouldn't be treated as games that are meant to be played to "win", meant to be played to be "beaten". They are, first and foremost, stories you help shape through the actions of your character. Should options for more diverse stories be cut because some people can't stand the thought of not getting the perfect result if presented with the possibility of both failure and success? If they are so overly concerned with "winning", well, let them load their last save, let them set things right. It's a valid course of action.

But punish everyone with just bad results? No good, not in games like DA and ME.

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 31 mars 2012 - 03:38 .

[AlanC9]

Il Divo wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I don't understand grimdark lovers. But I'm perfectly happy to share disc space with them if we are both given the opportunity to have the endings we want. Everyone is happy. Yay.

Too bad ME3 pleases the grimdark lovers at my expense.

I'm a grimdark lover. Mass Effect 3 did not satisfy most of us.

Yeah, that's the thing. The ME3 ending isn't a good ending even if you're OK with the state(s) the galaxy and characters are left in.

But Nightwriter's missed the point. Grimdark doesn't work if the player has to affirmatively has to choose that fate. That's just Shepard being a fool. People who think everyone can get what they want are deluding themselves.

[AlanC9]

TheRealJayDee wrote...
I hate to use accusatory "people like you" speeches, but I'm afraid I need to make an exception here. It's people like you, Razman, who prevent people like me from getting the gaming experience we want.

Yep. And conversely, if you get what you want Razman can't get what he wants.

Which is OK. I mean, it sucks that there's an irreducible conflict and all, but we're all still just members of the community here, expression those opinion things we've all got.

Modifié par AlanC9, 31 mars 2012 - 03:53 .

[Han Shot First]

Il Divo wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I don't understand grimdark lovers. But I'm perfectly happy to share disc space with them if we are both given the opportunity to have the endings we want. Everyone is happy. Yay.

Too bad ME3 pleases the grimdark lovers at my expense.

I'm a grimdark lover. Mass Effect 3 did not satisfy most of us.

I'm not sure why some people who want a butterflies and rainbows ending keep insisting in this thread that those of us who don't, like the existing endings.

[JBONE27]

AlanC9 wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...
I hate to use accusatory "people like you" speeches, but I'm afraid I need to make an exception here. It's people like you, Razman, who prevent people like me from getting the gaming experience we want.

Yep. And conversely, if you get what you want Razman can't get what he wants.

Which is OK. I mean, it sucks that there's an irreducible conflict and all, but we're all still just members of the community here, expression those opinion things we've all got.

Unfortunately all Razman seems to want is to deny everyone else what they want.

It's a false equivilancy.  It's like someone saying, I want a puppy and someone else saying, I want absoluetly no one to have a puppy.  Which one is more reasonable?

[AlanC9]

Han Shot First wrote...
I'm not sure why some people who want a butterflies and rainbows ending keep insisting in this thread that those of us who don't, like the existing endings.

Well, the whole Retake -- movement, I guess? -- has worked by not bothering to distinguish why people are dissatisfied with the endings. As Il Divo pointed out over in OT, it's easier to mobilize by pointing out what people have in common rather than worrying about specifics interests that very well might differ.

Think of yourself as a pro-life Democrat. Or a pro-legalization Republican. Etc.

[PiEman]

I don't think the happy-ending haters will be satisfied with anything short of both making the endings turn out worse, and for the game to come with the discs pre-sharpened so they have something to cut themselves with.

[DeinonSlayer]

AlanC9 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I don't understand grimdark lovers. But I'm perfectly happy to share disc space with them if we are both given the opportunity to have the endings we want. Everyone is happy. Yay.

Too bad ME3 pleases the grimdark lovers at my expense.

I'm a grimdark lover. Mass Effect 3 did not satisfy most of us.

Yeah, that's the thing. The ME3 ending isn't a good ending even if you're OK with the state(s) the galaxy and characters are left in.

But Nightwriter's missed the point. Grimdark doesn't work if the player has to affirmatively has to choose that fate. That's just Shepard being a fool. People who think everyone can get what they want are deluding themselves.

And that's where I have difficulty sympathizing with grimdarkers. "Happy enders" aren't demanding that grimdark endings be excluded from the game altogether.

Your argument is that the very existence of an ending that would satisfy those seeking a "happy" ending would somehow invalidate yours... and thus Bioware should side with you.

This is optional DLC we're talking about here. If you don't want it, nobody is forcing you to get it.

[AlanC9]

JBONE27 wrote...
Unfortunately all Razman seems to want is to deny everyone else what they want.

It's a false equivilancy.  It's like someone saying, I want a puppy and someone else saying, I want absoluetly no one to have a puppy.  Which one is more reasonable?

Well, I don't want to speak for Razman. But I can speak for me.

As near as I can tell from all the proposals I've seen so far, if you get a puppy I have to get a puppy too. Sure, I can just murder the puppy (by forcing Shepard to make bad decisions), but that isn't the same thing as not being forced to have a puppy in the first place.

[TheRealJayDee]

Dang, forgot to post this a while ago:

Random citizen wrote...

I did multiple playthroughs of DA:O and found the sacrifice endings of DA:O extremely sad, especially so if romance was involved.The only cure to that depression was another playthrough. I would say that the varied endings did not invalidate anything. The contrast made the experience strong if you ask me.

I have two completed playthroughs of DA:O, with very different characters. Both ended with the DR, but only in one case did that feel anything like a victory. I also talked a lot with my friends about their playthroughs and endings, and we had very varied experiences and feelings about it. One is still heartbroken because she didn't prevent Alistair from sacrificing himself for her Warden, one never felt the DR was even an option and gladly sacrificed his Warden.

It's that variety that made for many different experiences and memories. Options are good!

[JBONE27]

AlanC9 wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...
Unfortunately all Razman seems to want is to deny everyone else what they want.

It's a false equivilancy.  It's like someone saying, I want a puppy and someone else saying, I want absoluetly no one to have a puppy.  Which one is more reasonable?

Well, I don't want to speak for Razman. But I can speak for me.

As near as I can tell from all the proposals I've seen so far, if you get a puppy I have to get a puppy too. Sure, I can just murder the puppy (by forcing Shepard to make bad decisions), but that isn't the same thing as not being forced to have a puppy in the first place.

And that's not what I was saying at all.  Think about *Spoiler Alert* How you save Mordin, you make two decisions that seem like terrible ones (killing Wrex and destroying the genophage cure), but in the end, you save Mordin and, unless I'm mistaken, get both the krogan and salarians on your side.  My main Shepard would never chose this because she wouldn't make those sacrifices nessisary for the happier outcome, but my off Shep would because he wants to do things the quickest way possible.

Also, the default ending should probably be the crew dies, but the galaxy is saved and the Earth survives.  It's only if you work hard to get the Earth is destroyed or Shep's crew lives.

Modifié par JBONE27, 31 mars 2012 - 04:12 .

[AlanC9]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
And that's where I have difficulty sympathizing with grimdarkers. "Happy enders" aren't demanding that grimdark endings be excluded from the game altogether.

Your argument is that the very existence of an ending that would satisfy those seeking a "happy" ending would somehow invalidate yours... and thus Bioware should side with you.

This is optional DLC we're talking about here. If you don't want it, nobody is forcing you to get it.

And like I've said before -- but maybe not in this thread -- as long as the optional DLC contains only the butterflies and puppies ending, I don't give a damn what's in it.

(Except in the resources-better-used-elsewhere sense, but if I can swallow MP I can swallow this)

But I do have a problem if Bio inserts expansion material for the non-butterfiles endings in the same DLC. I trust I don't need to explain why.

[AlanC9]

JBONE27 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...
Unfortunately all Razman seems to want is to deny everyone else what they want.

It's a false equivilancy.  It's like someone saying, I want a puppy and someone else saying, I want absoluetly no one to have a puppy.  Which one is more reasonable?

Well, I don't want to speak for Razman. But I can speak for me.

As near as I can tell from all the proposals I've seen so far, if you get a puppy I have to get a puppy too. Sure, I can just murder the puppy (by forcing Shepard to make bad decisions), but that isn't the same thing as not being forced to have a puppy in the first place.

And that's not what I was saying at all.  Think about *Spoiler Alert* How you save Mordin, you make two decisions that seem like terrible ones (killing Wrex and destroying the genophage cure), but in the end, you save Mordin and, unless I'm mistaken, get both the krogan and salarians on your side.  My main Shepard would never chose this because she wouldn't make those sacrifices nessisary for the happier outcome, but my off Shep would because he wants to do things the quickest way possible.

So if I metagame enough I'll be OK? Not a solution.

Edit: though if the happy ending has awful consequences, I'm fine with that. For instance, in your Tuchanka example, the obvious downside of destroying the genophage cure is that you .... destroy the genophage cure.

Modifié par AlanC9, 31 mars 2012 - 04:14 .

[PiEman]

AlanC9 wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...
Unfortunately all Razman seems to want is to deny everyone else what they want.

It's a false equivilancy.  It's like someone saying, I want a puppy and someone else saying, I want absoluetly no one to have a puppy.  Which one is more reasonable?

Well, I don't want to speak for Razman. But I can speak for me.

As near as I can tell from all the proposals I've seen so far, if you get a puppy I have to get a puppy too. Sure, I can just murder the puppy (by forcing Shepard to make bad decisions), but that isn't the same thing as not being forced to have a puppy in the first place.

No.

I would like a puppy. Razman thinks that my having a puppy will somehow infringe on his ability to carry around a dead, guttet-out puppy. I am not forcing anybody to have a puppy. Please do not kill mine and make it a handbag.

[AlanC9]

PiEman wrote...
I would like a puppy. Razman thinks that my having a puppy will somehow infringe on his ability to carry around a dead, guttet-out puppy. I am not forcing anybody to have a puppy. Please do not kill mine and make it a handbag.

And again -- how do I not get a puppy?

[JBONE27]

AlanC9 wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...
Unfortunately all Razman seems to want is to deny everyone else what they want.

It's a false equivilancy.  It's like someone saying, I want a puppy and someone else saying, I want absoluetly no one to have a puppy.  Which one is more reasonable?

Well, I don't want to speak for Razman. But I can speak for me.

As near as I can tell from all the proposals I've seen so far, if you get a puppy I have to get a puppy too. Sure, I can just murder the puppy (by forcing Shepard to make bad decisions), but that isn't the same thing as not being forced to have a puppy in the first place.

And that's not what I was saying at all.  Think about *Spoiler Alert* How you save Mordin, you make two decisions that seem like terrible ones (killing Wrex and destroying the genophage cure), but in the end, you save Mordin and, unless I'm mistaken, get both the krogan and salarians on your side.  My main Shepard would never chose this because she wouldn't make those sacrifices nessisary for the happier outcome, but my off Shep would because he wants to do things the quickest way possible.

So if I metagame enough I'll be OK? Not a solution.

If you want a game that has a dower ending no mater what, play one that has a single ending.  That's the problem, you don't want people to have a choice, you simply want the game your way.

[TheRealJayDee]

AlanC9 wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

My main Shepard would never chose this because she wouldn't make those sacrifices nessisary for the happier outcome, but my off Shep would because he wants to do things the quickest way possible.

So if I metagame enough I'll be OK? Not a solution.

What? Who's talking about metagaming? I'd say it's "if I roleplay enough I'll get the result of my roleplaying". That's not a solution, that's the most reasonable way to play the game. You can of course metgame as much as you like to get what you want, nobody's trying to prevent you from that.

What we don't want is "play however you want and get the same depressing result as everyone else. because some people absolutely have to get the happiest ending available at all times, so we cut anything remotely happy."

[PiEman]

AlanC9 wrote...

PiEman wrote...
I would like a puppy. Razman thinks that my having a puppy will somehow infringe on his ability to carry around a dead, guttet-out puppy. I am not forcing anybody to have a puppy. Please do not kill mine and make it a handbag.

And again -- how do I not get a puppy?

Simple. Don't get the puppy.

Kill the puppy if you want, or just don't get one. Make the choices that do not force you to have a puppy.

[Suspire]

AlanC9 wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...
Unfortunately all Razman seems to want is to deny everyone else what they want.

It's a false equivilancy.  It's like someone saying, I want a puppy and someone else saying, I want absoluetly no one to have a puppy.  Which one is more reasonable?

Well, I don't want to speak for Razman. But I can speak for me.

As near as I can tell from all the proposals I've seen so far, if you get a puppy I have to get a puppy too. Sure, I can just murder the puppy (by forcing Shepard to make bad decisions), but that isn't the same thing as not being forced to have a puppy in the first place.

And that's not what I was saying at all.  Think about *Spoiler Alert* How you save Mordin, you make two decisions that seem like terrible ones (killing Wrex and destroying the genophage cure), but in the end, you save Mordin and, unless I'm mistaken, get both the krogan and salarians on your side.  My main Shepard would never chose this because she wouldn't make those sacrifices nessisary for the happier outcome, but my off Shep would because he wants to do things the quickest way possible.

So if I metagame enough I'll be OK? Not a solution.

Edit: though if the happy ending has awful consequences, I'm fine with that. For instance, in your Tuchanka example, the obvious downside of destroying the genophage cure is that you .... destroy the genophage cure.

Metagame? To me that's called playing an rpg. Each character I play is different and does different things. This is like playing Skyrim, then complaining you could join all opposing guilds with the same character. BW should just make one linear action game for this kind of gamer.

[TheRealJayDee]

AlanC9 wrote...

PiEman wrote...
I would like a puppy. Razman thinks that my having a puppy will somehow infringe on his ability to carry around a dead, guttet-out puppy. I am not forcing anybody to have a puppy. Please do not kill mine and make it a handbag.

And again -- how do I not get a puppy?

And again - by not making decisions as the player with all the knowledge about dead and living puppies or whatever the alternative, but by making the decisions as your character would see fit and look what you end up with.

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 31 mars 2012 - 04:21 .

[warlock22]

Wes Mordine wrote...

The galaxy will still be mourning their billions! It's sad enough.

But Shepard (and by extension, the player) may have a happy ending by winning the war and reuniting with his/friends and LI.

Why not?

Well said!