650 réponses à ce sujet

[kalle90]

Reading through makes me think Bioware should actually keep the current endings and just clarify.

People have one million opinions on how the game should play out. It sounds impossible to please more than a couple of % of the complainers. Everyone else will go "This isn't what we wanted"

Moreover while people discuss about concepts, presentation is what matters in the end. If Shepard is shown with LI and squad on Normandy with barely anything else, that gives the impression of happyhappyfunfun ending. If Shepard is shown with LI and squad on Normandy AND the galaxywide aftermath of war is shown with millions dead, including many known characters from Anderson to Shiala to Bailey then there can be sense of bittersweetness. Especially if Shepard got a chance to sacrifice himself to save some of them but chose to keep his life. Another example of sad ending is that Normany crew is shown dead in the wreckage and the game pretty much ends there showing just a few surviving ships flying around Earth, while the happy version is that Normandy crew is shown dead in the wreckage, but the millions of survivors celebrate and pay their respects to Shepard and Normandy (Hackett having a speech, Wrex/Korlis/Victus/other also having something to say) who gave their lives to save them even after all the "Reapers are not real" reception.

Also the presentation of how the endings are brought to us. To me it looks like some are practically asking "Choose between happy and sad ending. I can pick the happy one and those who like sad can pick it". That would be just wrong. On the other hand if there are far reaching consequeces aka you need to gather all the assets and do all the right choices to walk towards the happiest ending I could see people going "How was I supposed to know, this game is about choice. I worked so much but this game has too high requirements", which would also be stupid.

However, this game is about choices. And against godly Reapers there must be casaulties no matter how well or ill-prepared you are. So I say we should be able to choose our sacrifice, it worked great in DA Origins. Do you want to sacrifice Shepard, LI, squad/mates, a race, millions of avoidable casaulties (which must be rubbed on our face and not just text ie showing Balak's and Xen's ships going down), travel, populated planets, technology, relationships, freedom, future...

[LordCrux]

JBONE27 wrote...

LordCrux wrote...

Suspire wrote...

LordCrux wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...
You forgot, everyone dies and the reapers lose.
Also, what makes you think that just because they're alive they're happy?  Their families are baiscally all dead.  Their homes have been destroyed.  Many of their friends are dead.  They're probably going to be suffering from severe PTSD.  They're not happy, they're just survivors.

What you're missing is that Shepard essentially had the power of a god in his hands, so if there was an ending where the main character lives, then the rest of the galaxy would never learn the lesson to rise above their current level of maturity, and essentially the entire galaxy will destroy itself if the machines can't. The name Shepard given is not by coincidence. There is an overarching theme since the very beginning of the series, and whatever ending has been decided, it must be relevant to that theme.

I don't think anyone agrees with what the theme is. I know for me it's more like "take no bull**** for an answer, there's always another option, against all odds, there's no impossible, I'll show you, we can do this"

I'm pretty sure the overarching theme for Mass Effect 1 2 &3 has always been about technological singularity, where the advancement of intelligent life is at a critical point. What is the next step if life? Do highly advanced intelligent beings still having things like greed and corruption? Can life evolve beyond material wealth? Is there such a thing as utopia and intellectual enlightenment? You deal with this throughout the entire series, it's sci-fi. The theme is not about 'kicking ass" but about how those grandiose debates relate to very personal and emotional feelings, and it carries through the different people you meet along the way. You define that experience through the choices you make, but ultimately there will be a choice where there is no win-win situation. And while facing your own mortality at the very end, you reflect on the decisions you've made. That what I get out of it. So for me, the open-ended (and unavoidable) climax makes sense for me on many different levels.

All of this would be great if the ending actually made any sense.  I think you're missing the fact that it isn't really openended, emotionally gratifying, logical, or fitting with the overall tone, themes, or style of the trillogy.  It's all just nonsensical space magic.

You probably prefered the second Matrix movie to the first, because the second was all about philosophy and occasional fights, whereas the first was about being a fun comicbook style movie.

Actually, no I hate the 2nd and 3rd Matrix because they've detached the characters from the backdrop of the man vs. machines theme. The first one works because it's seen through the eyes of a personal lens. You feel what Neo is feeling as he slowly uncovers the truth of the matrix. Without the emotions, you wouldn't care about the theme. In the first one, the philosphical (in its condensed form) and the personal are interrelated, just like ME.

And ME3's ending made perfect sense to me precisely because the philosphical and the personal are interrelated. What you interpret as nonsensical space magic, I see a mortal trying to deal with stuff that's beyond his capacity. 

If I were to use your criteria for judging others, I would say that you probably thought 2001's ending didn't make any sense either.

[AzaggThoth]

LordCrux wrote...

If I were to use your criteria for
judging others, I would say that you probably thought 2001's ending
didn't make any sense either.

Personally, 2001's ending only made sense to me for 1 reason. I read the novel first. Without that to lean on the film was so bogged down in imagry to make much out of. As it stands, the current ending for ME3 seems like nothinhg more than a Chewbacca Defense that some people seem unwilling to call out for what it is.

Modifié par AzaggThoth, 31 mars 2012 - 09:44 .

[Rabid Rooster]

Wes Mordine wrote...

The galaxy will still be mourning their billions! It's sad enough.

But Shepard (and by extension, the player) may have a happy ending by winning the war and reuniting with his/friends and LI.

Why not?

This!

Plus Shepard reflecting on and being haunted by the loss of dear friends and the things his actions have changed in the galaxy.

[ile_1979]

The Razman wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Agreed.

I for one will never do a playthrough in which the Quarian migrant fleet is destroyed. I don't think I could even stomach watching it happen on YouTube. The fact that it's optional in no way detracts from my belief that it would be an extremely emotional moment.

Would be ... but isn't. Because you can just avoid it in favour of the happier version, like you are doing. If the writers want to make you feel those emotions ... then they have to force them on you. You're not going to pick the one you find so heart-wrenching voluntarily, are you? Nobody would. That's why its tragedy.

It's not necessary to make people feel those emotions, but if the writers feel that they want to make their audience feel tragedy, then that's their artistic license.

IF the writers want to force me to feel such an emotion they should go and make a movie about it. Or write a book. Or maybe even a tunnel shooter! Oh wait, they already did that <_<

The Razman wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote... 

The Razman wrote...
Really?
I don't see anybody on these forums discussing the Tali moment very
much, in comparison to the Mordin or Thane moments?

Mordin's death isn't forced. And yet people are persistently talking about it. Interesting.

Give this man a cookie.

Mordin's death is forced unless you've killed Wrex in the first game. It's not something you have an active choice in within ME3.

Back
to the point ... do you not agree people have been discussing Mordin
and Thane's deaths much more than Tali's, the one you have the active
choice not to do?

Therefore it is not forced but a result of your actions/inactions. IMO there is a diference here.

Modifié par ile_1979, 31 mars 2012 - 11:27 .

[ile_1979]

Sorry, double post

Modifié par ile_1979, 31 mars 2012 - 11:28 .

[The Razman]

ile_1979 wrote...

IF the writers want to force me to feel such an emotion they should go and make a movie about it. Or write a book. Or maybe even a tunnel shooter! Oh wait, they already did that <_<

So ... video-games shouldn't be able to make us feel emotions we don't want or choose to, like other artistic mediums?

[ile_1979]

The Razman wrote...

ile_1979 wrote...

IF the writers want to force me to feel such an emotion they should go and make a movie about it. Or write a book. Or maybe even a tunnel shooter! Oh wait, they already did that <_<

So ... video-games shouldn't be able to make us feel emotions we don't want or choose to, like other artistic mediums?

Read my post again. RPGs are at their very core about choice and roleplaying. Take away this and you are left with what we got at the moment. Story based shooter. You might even get an oscar for it.

[kalle90]

ile_1979 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

ile_1979 wrote...

IF the writers want to force me to feel such an emotion they should go and make a movie about it. Or write a book. Or maybe even a tunnel shooter! Oh wait, they already did that <_<

So ... video-games shouldn't be able to make us feel emotions we don't want or choose to, like other artistic mediums?

Read my post again. RPGs are at their very core about choice and roleplaying. Take away this and you are left with what we got at the moment. Story based shooter. You might even get an oscar for it.

But there has to be some scripting. We aren't allowed to just walk away and build a home on some random planet, nor can we try to romance everyone... Developers have to force certain stuff. It would be just bland if at any given moment you had infinite possibilities.

Still not defending the endings. There was no reason to simply force a color on us.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

They have to force stuff, but when it comes to the character the player is role playing and important descisions the least is to gives him different possible reactions. ME3 endings is three times the same reaction from Shepard.

Modifié par Kakita Tatsumaru, 31 mars 2012 - 01:52 .

[mmm buddah23]

Calbeb wrote...

The game has a really dark tone, and I just don't want an ending that is happiness and rainbows. If they did something hopeful and at the same time represent the costs of the war, I wouldn't mind that.

With that said, the intent was clearly to do something a little more about self-sacrifice. I have NO problem with that as long as it is clear and dramatic. While the current ending being dramatic is debatable, clear is not.

If you help everyone out, and take the paragon path both ME 1 and 2, and unite all the species that were former enemies, there is no reason there couldnt be a REALLY good ending, just like if you ignore everyone, shoot everything, and split allies up, there should be a REALLY negative endng, instead we got three semi neutral endings that no matter what your readiness is , and no matter who you helped or not, you can still choose any of the three....mega lame.

[Ianamus]

Because apparently "Billions are killed, some races extinct, many of Shepard's close friends dead but he and his LI are alive and together" = "My little pony Disney is magic"

Modifié par EJ107, 31 mars 2012 - 01:51 .

[mmm buddah23]

EJ107 wrote...

Because apparently "Billions are killed, some races extinct, many of Shepard's close friends dead but he and his LI are alive and together" = "My little pony Disney is magic"

hahahahaaha, yeah, is really aggrevating though, if I help everyone and the fleeets united are much bigger than the reapers fleet, and everyone knows about their weakness, that when they open their guns to fire, to aim there, there is no reason we couldnt hunt the reapers to extinction. Its still not a super rosey ending, millions would die, fleets would be destroyed, but that would be MY choice, and at least I had that choice.

[Random citizen]

A team-member (including the possibility of it being Joker) having to sacrifice himself or herself for a more happy ending would be a good idea IMHO. (Javik would probably have no problem with going out in a blaze of glory, even if it could be sad if he had learned to appriciate life. Vega would have no problem taking one for the team)

Other good ideas is to work with appropriate scenery (Earth is almost completely destroyed and most of humanity is dead) and reactions from Shepard and other survivors (them not being "happy" they look out over the rubble, some are showing signs of disrepair, the others are quiet with dogged, grim expressions on their faces) . You find out that at best, only half the fleet has survived (EMS 4000+). In the end they saved what little that could be saved.

Modifié par Random citizen, 31 mars 2012 - 02:13 .

[kbct]

OP, maybe you should compile some the best arguments in your first post. I've seen it work well in other long threads.

[Dot.Shadow]

At least giving Shepard, and his LI a happy ending isn't too much to ask considering that everything else goes to hell. People who wanted their sadness get their part of it, people who wanted a little bit of happiness in it get theirs.

That's my 5 cents at least.

[Random citizen]

Dot.Shadow wrote...

At least giving Shepard, and his LI a happy ending isn't too much to ask considering that everything else goes to hell. People who wanted their sadness get their part of it, people who wanted a little bit of happiness in it get theirs.

That's my 5 cents at least.

I think that is the short version that sums it up quite nicely.

[kalle90]

EJ107 wrote...

Because apparently "Billions are killed, some races extinct, many of Shepard's close friends dead but he and his LI are alive and together" = "My little pony Disney is magic"

And there comes the issue of defining "happy".

People are asking for happy ending although it seems everyone has different opinion of what that is. Everyone lives? Only the people Shepard knows live? Humanity/alienity survives? Shepard and LI are together, no one else matters?

IMO Shep and LI living happily ever after is such a cliche I don't want it to be the generic option, even if everything and everyone else is doomed. Sure it could be an option, just not something we are automatically geared towards.

Someone mentioned Halo 3 as a good bittersweet ending before. I actually wouldn't mind if Shepard ended up like Master Chief and LI ended up like Arbiter (Knowing Shepard is out there somewhere) or Cortana (Stuck with Shepard on a stranded drifting ship. There might not be anyone coming for them but atleast they spend their supposedly last moments together)

Modifié par kalle90, 31 mars 2012 - 02:32 .

[Random citizen]

kalle90 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Because apparently "Billions are killed, some races extinct, many of Shepard's close friends dead but he and his LI are alive and together" = "My little pony Disney is magic"

And there comes the issue of defining "happy".

People are asking for happy ending although it seems everyone has different opinion of what that is. Everyone lives? Only the people Shepard knows live? Humanity/alienity survives? Shepard and LI are together, no one else matters?

IMO Shep and LI living happily ever after is such a cliche I don't want it to be the generic option, even if everything and everyone else is doomed. Sure it could be an option, just not something we are automatically geared towards.

Someone mentioned Halo 3 as a good bittersweet ending before. I actually wouldn't mind if Shepard ended up like Master Chief and LI ended up like Arbiter (Knowing Shepard is out there somewhere) or Cortana (Stuck with Shepard on a stranded drifting ship. There might not be anyone coming for them but atleast they spend their supposedly last moments together)

People that cares for the artistic integrity of the series do not want to see it "soiled" by the type of ending that some american movies or stories are infamous for. They ignore the hard stuff only to focus on what is happy and sweet. The troubles are long gone, the sun is always shining, everyone is happy and the grass is greener then ever before and the triumphant heroes bask in their own success. Its cheap and tastless as hell.

But at least 95% of the fans of the series that cares about its narrative consistency understands that the setting for a happy ending is a situation and scene that must be defined by the story-events and themes that led up to the ending. It means that a "happy ending" will be an ending remembering all that is lost (which is much indeed, and heavy stuff to bear), but also what there still is (which is not much but it is important).

Modifié par Random citizen, 31 mars 2012 - 02:44 .

[Pee Jae]

As has been said before, I want to see this Disney movie where trillions died. I don't think I've seen every Disney movie, but I've seen quite a lot of them and don't remember that one.

Point being again, happy doesn't mean bunnies and ponies and rainbows. Happy in this case means (to me) a satisfactory conclusion. Which this isn't. In my opinion, which echoes many others.

[kbct]

kalle90 wrote...
And there comes the issue of defining "happy".

The goal should be to find the definition of "happy" that appeals to the most people. There can be a compromise somewhere between pure disney and pure tragedy that would make the most customers happy. It's not an impossible task.

[kalle90]

How are they going to present those trillions dead? Based on the games I have hard time believing the galaxy has more than 1000 living beings (plus the other 1000 I killed). So yes, I could imagine that in Bambi a trillion insects and wildlife were killed, we just don't ever see or know them. There is no attachment, just statistics "Over 9000 dead".

Still like "random citizen" said it's all about how the ending conveys the "happiness" (more like hopefulness) and sadness. Grim faces, rubble, bodies, dialogue, music, even camera angles... later rebuilding, mourning, asari kid and geth kid playing together... IMO whether Shepard dies or not doesn't have to affect whether the ending is sad or happy.

That said I think people are putting expectations for the possible new ending (for which we have to pay money for) way too high. It's bound not to please everyone. Even if it has 16 endings. But anything will probably be better than the current one.

[JBONE27]

kalle90 wrote...

Reading through makes me think Bioware should actually keep the current endings and just clarify.

People have one million opinions on how the game should play out. It sounds impossible to please more than a couple of % of the complainers. Everyone else will go "This isn't what we wanted"

Moreover while people discuss about concepts, presentation is what matters in the end. If Shepard is shown with LI and squad on Normandy with barely anything else, that gives the impression of happyhappyfunfun ending. If Shepard is shown with LI and squad on Normandy AND the galaxywide aftermath of war is shown with millions dead, including many known characters from Anderson to Shiala to Bailey then there can be sense of bittersweetness. Especially if Shepard got a chance to sacrifice himself to save some of them but chose to keep his life. Another example of sad ending is that Normany crew is shown dead in the wreckage and the game pretty much ends there showing just a few surviving ships flying around Earth, while the happy version is that Normandy crew is shown dead in the wreckage, but the millions of survivors celebrate and pay their respects to Shepard and Normandy (Hackett having a speech, Wrex/Korlis/Victus/other also having something to say) who gave their lives to save them even after all the "Reapers are not real" reception.

Also the presentation of how the endings are brought to us. To me it looks like some are practically asking "Choose between happy and sad ending. I can pick the happy one and those who like sad can pick it". That would be just wrong. On the other hand if there are far reaching consequeces aka you need to gather all the assets and do all the right choices to walk towards the happiest ending I could see people going "How was I supposed to know, this game is about choice. I worked so much but this game has too high requirements", which would also be stupid.

However, this game is about choices. And against godly Reapers there must be casaulties no matter how well or ill-prepared you are. So I say we should be able to choose our sacrifice, it worked great in DA Origins. Do you want to sacrifice Shepard, LI, squad/mates, a race, millions of avoidable casaulties (which must be rubbed on our face and not just text ie showing Balak's and Xen's ships going down), travel, populated planets, technology, relationships, freedom, future...

If they included that, it would be awesome.

[JBONE27]

LordCrux wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

LordCrux wrote...

Suspire wrote...

LordCrux wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...
You forgot, everyone dies and the reapers lose.
Also, what makes you think that just because they're alive they're happy?  Their families are baiscally all dead.  Their homes have been destroyed.  Many of their friends are dead.  They're probably going to be suffering from severe PTSD.  They're not happy, they're just survivors.

What you're missing is that Shepard essentially had the power of a god in his hands, so if there was an ending where the main character lives, then the rest of the galaxy would never learn the lesson to rise above their current level of maturity, and essentially the entire galaxy will destroy itself if the machines can't. The name Shepard given is not by coincidence. There is an overarching theme since the very beginning of the series, and whatever ending has been decided, it must be relevant to that theme.

I don't think anyone agrees with what the theme is. I know for me it's more like "take no bull**** for an answer, there's always another option, against all odds, there's no impossible, I'll show you, we can do this"

I'm pretty sure the overarching theme for Mass Effect 1 2 &3 has always been about technological singularity, where the advancement of intelligent life is at a critical point. What is the next step if life? Do highly advanced intelligent beings still having things like greed and corruption? Can life evolve beyond material wealth? Is there such a thing as utopia and intellectual enlightenment? You deal with this throughout the entire series, it's sci-fi. The theme is not about 'kicking ass" but about how those grandiose debates relate to very personal and emotional feelings, and it carries through the different people you meet along the way. You define that experience through the choices you make, but ultimately there will be a choice where there is no win-win situation. And while facing your own mortality at the very end, you reflect on the decisions you've made. That what I get out of it. So for me, the open-ended (and unavoidable) climax makes sense for me on many different levels.

All of this would be great if the ending actually made any sense.  I think you're missing the fact that it isn't really openended, emotionally gratifying, logical, or fitting with the overall tone, themes, or style of the trillogy.  It's all just nonsensical space magic.

You probably prefered the second Matrix movie to the first, because the second was all about philosophy and occasional fights, whereas the first was about being a fun comicbook style movie.

Actually, no I hate the 2nd and 3rd Matrix because they've detached the characters from the backdrop of the man vs. machines theme. The first one works because it's seen through the eyes of a personal lens. You feel what Neo is feeling as he slowly uncovers the truth of the matrix. Without the emotions, you wouldn't care about the theme. In the first one, the philosphical (in its condensed form) and the personal are interrelated, just like ME.

And ME3's ending made perfect sense to me precisely because the philosphical and the personal are interrelated. What you interpret as nonsensical space magic, I see a mortal trying to deal with stuff that's beyond his capacity. 

If I were to use your criteria for judging others, I would say that you probably thought 2001's ending didn't make any sense either.

Wow, that's a false equivilancy.  Other than the space baby, which I think was a mistake on Kubrick's part, the ending to 2001 made perfect sense in the world that was set up.  The whole final scene felt exactly like the architect scene from the second Matrix movie.  It comes basically out of nowhere, gives the illusion of choice, and basically says, "Hey, you know the game you've been playing for hundreds of hours?  You know how the story actually had some grounding both emotionally and physically?  Well, you can say goodbye to that, because now you're space Jesus and the only choice you have is how you want to sacrifice yourself."

[kalle90]

JBONE27 wrote...

The whole final scene felt exactly like the architect scene from the second Matrix movie.  It comes basically out of nowhere, gives the illusion of choice, and basically says, "Hey, you know the game you've been playing for hundreds of hours?  You know how the story actually had some grounding both emotionally and physically?  Well, you can say goodbye to that, because now you're space Jesus and the only choice you have is how you want to sacrifice yourself."

The ending instantly made me think of that scene in Matrix as well. Sad thing is that architect made more sense. If this godchild simply used the dark energy theory:

"You can choose door 1: a certain few people will be able to enter Citadel and they are safe from Reapers and harvesting. Or you can choose door 2: Fight, which, no matter whether you win or lose, will eventually lead into your destruction - Either Reapers kill you or the dark energy consumes the entire galaxy"

I would have been much more impressed than I am by the current logic and options of godchild. It would still have a billion plothole issues, but atleast the choices themselves would have an interesting dilemma.