650 réponses à ce sujet

[LordCrux]

Getorex wrote...

LordCrux wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

LordCrux wrote...
I don't really get how the starchild being immortal can be so upsetting, other than perhaps you have a very firm belief on the issue of the after-life that the seeing starchild (and the Lazarus Project for that matter)  somehow upsets that belief. If so then I can't comment on that. For the record, I'm agnotistic, so I'm open to the possibility of something unknown, simply because I know don't know everything.

That's the thing, the Lazerus project is grounded in science.  I don't believe in any sort of afterlife, so that's a rediculous strawman.  The Starchild is just randomly immortal.  The game took a quick heel turn from science fiction to science fantasy.  It's jarring and nonsensicle.  

The reapers are immortal, and you accept from the very first game. They were 'created' by the starchild, so why would the notion that the starchild can be immortal as well seem nonsensical to you? Also the kid is in the first scene of the game, and you have recurring dream sequences of him throughout, so he didn't just pop out of nowhere. As for sci fiction / science fantasy, it's not uncommon for sci fi to explore the relationship between science and the supernatural because they're both very much intertwined. For all we know, the starchild form that you see can be just Shepard's visual interpretation of an entity that no one can comprehend.

From the very first game, the reaper storyline deals with very big ideas about life on a galactic scale, so why would a literal ending (ie, we get a Macguffin to kill the bad guys, let's party at the Citadel) serve any justice to it? Obviously, you, I, Shepard and everyone would like that to happen, but the idea in Mass Effect is that there will be point where life itself will destroy itself if it is not dealt with. And to deal with it, you either a) reset life, which is purpose of the reaper control it, which is what TIM is trying to do, or c) evolve life as know into another level, which is synthesis. So if you want an ending in which Shep survives and the Reapers are gone, then everything that you've been fighting for is for nothing in the long term, because the cycle will repeat itself. Sure, you can have blue babies with have a happy ending, but in the next 2,000 years or so, the galaxy will be destroyed be its own inhabitants because they haven't evolved / reset. That's the choice Shep is making at the end, and if Shep were to survive that choice, then he is essentially cheating death.

Utter bollocks.  First, the entire premise of "synthetics will always turn on their creators" is crap and disproved by ME2 (Legion vs the "Heretics"...in which the killer synthetics WERE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE REAPERS!) and ME3 where Legion gives you the TRUE history of the Geth:Quarian problem...it wasn't synthetics attacking their creators, it was the other way around!  Then there's EDI in ME2 and 3 - not only NOT trying to turn on her creators, but actually BOINKNG one of the organic creators!  

Second, you are simply assuming that godkid is right (when he is clearly wrong...see above under Legion:Geth and EDI) and that the "highest form of evolution is synthesis".  No it isn't.  See?  I backed that up with precisely the same amount of data/proof that the kid did.  Mine is more true though because I'm not some idiot kid.  Third, you cannot do "synthesis" in any case because the godkid tells Shepard that it would require the combination of organic and synthetic DNA.  Synthetics do not have DNA!  None.  DNA is ENTIRELY an organic thing (by definition).  On top of that, how do you combine (nonexistent) synthetic DNA with organic DNA via green radio waves?  Now, I work with DNA on a regular basis and I'd LOVE to know how one combines or alters DNA via broadcast.  No contact necessary, just green magic beams sent out like radio waves.  POOF!  Space magic making "new" DNA.  IN ADDITION:  all that would be needed, at worst, for the synthesis thing was a mouth swab with a Q-tip of Shepard (or any other organic) and drop that into the magical beam.  BOOP!  Done, with Shepard fully alive because...giving a HUGE DNA sample (mouth swab, spit sample, skin biopsy, etc) is NOT fatal.  Ever.  Not in any circumstance except the truly bizarre: mouth swab breaks skin in mouth and skin break gets infected with a VERY nasty form of MRSA.  OR: taking small skin biopsy (overkill bigtime) with dirty needle directly innoculates virulant bacteria into blood.  Sepsis sets in.  Of course, being ~150yrs in the future, the medical establishment would be helpless before MRSA or any other infective organism because...because?  

Control:  no death needed there either.  We saw a simple way to control synthetics in "Overlord".  Not comfy but not fatal. 

No, the fatality schtick is ENTIRELY arbitrary and simply not necessary or realistic (in the ME universe or our own).  Garbage.  All garbage.

Look, the entire godkid, 3 choice crap is just that: crap.  It was NOT thought out.  It is NOT rational (not in the ME universe and CERTAINLY not in ours). 

You completely missed the point. The spacekid says organics and machines can't exist together, while in Shepard's experience has proven otherwise (which he himself as influneced) so therefore it is up to you to decide. And secondly, your knowledge of machines is based what we know today, who's to say that the core of AI intellegence forms their own version of a DNA-like code, or something else entirely. If you firmly believe "this is machine" and "ths is organic" then that's your point of view. The final choice you're making is entirely based on your point of view on an open-ended question that you and I currenty have no complete understanding of. And that is the point of the ending. If somehow that upsets you then you're type of person that needs literal explanations of everything to feel at ease with the world, which is impossible as it stands now. 

Modifié par LordCrux, 01 avril 2012 - 04:13 .

[Subject M]

Random citizen wrote...

kalle90 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Because apparently "Billions are killed, some races extinct, many of Shepard's close friends dead but he and his LI are alive and together" = "My little pony Disney is magic"

And there comes the issue of defining "happy".

People are asking for happy ending although it seems everyone has different opinion of what that is. Everyone lives? Only the people Shepard knows live? Humanity/alienity survives? Shepard and LI are together, no one else matters?

IMO Shep and LI living happily ever after is such a cliche I don't want it to be the generic option, even if everything and everyone else is doomed. Sure it could be an option, just not something we are automatically geared towards.

Someone mentioned Halo 3 as a good bittersweet ending before. I actually wouldn't mind if Shepard ended up like Master Chief and LI ended up like Arbiter (Knowing Shepard is out there somewhere) or Cortana (Stuck with Shepard on a stranded drifting ship. There might not be anyone coming for them but atleast they spend their supposedly last moments together)

People that cares for the artistic integrity of the series do not want to see it "soiled" by the type of ending that some american movies or stories are infamous for. They ignore the hard stuff only to focus on what is happy and sweet. The troubles are long gone, the sun is always shining, everyone is happy and the grass is greener then ever before and the triumphant heroes bask in their own success. Its cheap and tastless as hell.

But at least 95% of the fans of the series that cares about its narrative consistency understands that the setting for a happy ending is a situation and scene that must be defined by the story-events and themes that led up to the ending. It means that a "happy ending" will be an ending remembering all that is lost (which is much indeed, and heavy stuff to bear), but also what there still is (which is not much but it is important).

Nicely put. First and foremost, I guess most of us wants an ending that makes sense, that feels like it is part of the story and tradition of mass effect. The setting for the final act is a universe devastated by war, but within it, the story and tradition of the game have indicated that it would be possible to widely different endings. Most people assumed that Shepard would be able so survive (and they where correct it seems) its just that it was handled in a very poor and disconnected way. Shepard only being able to survive as separated from his or her friends and LI after having undone much of what he or she have achieved is in some way worse then just dying.

[DeinonSlayer]

kbct wrote...

Unless there is a poll, the talkative ones will always out-speak everyone else. This thread is a good example. Look at the post-count. Do the people with the most posts (besides the OP) represent the majority? The answer is no.

Exactly. Every single poll I've seen which addresses this question shows that those who want the option to earn a "happy ending" lead by a wide margin (usually 80% or more). Those insisting on Grimdark appear to be a small, but very determined and vocal minority (usually 5% or less, with the rest being indifferent to its inclusion as opposed to rejecting it). This is not said to disrespect anyone here - this is simply numbers. The best business move, as far as I can tell, would be to try to satisfy the largest portion of their customer base that they can, securing future business, unless "torch the franchise and run" was the plan all along...

[TacDavey]

LordCrux wrote...

Getorex wrote...

LordCrux wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

LordCrux wrote...
I don't really get how the starchild being immortal can be so upsetting, other than perhaps you have a very firm belief on the issue of the after-life that the seeing starchild (and the Lazarus Project for that matter)  somehow upsets that belief. If so then I can't comment on that. For the record, I'm agnotistic, so I'm open to the possibility of something unknown, simply because I know don't know everything.

That's the thing, the Lazerus project is grounded in science.  I don't believe in any sort of afterlife, so that's a rediculous strawman.  The Starchild is just randomly immortal.  The game took a quick heel turn from science fiction to science fantasy.  It's jarring and nonsensicle.  

The reapers are immortal, and you accept from the very first game. They were 'created' by the starchild, so why would the notion that the starchild can be immortal as well seem nonsensical to you? Also the kid is in the first scene of the game, and you have recurring dream sequences of him throughout, so he didn't just pop out of nowhere. As for sci fiction / science fantasy, it's not uncommon for sci fi to explore the relationship between science and the supernatural because they're both very much intertwined. For all we know, the starchild form that you see can be just Shepard's visual interpretation of an entity that no one can comprehend.

From the very first game, the reaper storyline deals with very big ideas about life on a galactic scale, so why would a literal ending (ie, we get a Macguffin to kill the bad guys, let's party at the Citadel) serve any justice to it? Obviously, you, I, Shepard and everyone would like that to happen, but the idea in Mass Effect is that there will be point where life itself will destroy itself if it is not dealt with. And to deal with it, you either a) reset life, which is purpose of the reaper control it, which is what TIM is trying to do, or c) evolve life as know into another level, which is synthesis. So if you want an ending in which Shep survives and the Reapers are gone, then everything that you've been fighting for is for nothing in the long term, because the cycle will repeat itself. Sure, you can have blue babies with have a happy ending, but in the next 2,000 years or so, the galaxy will be destroyed be its own inhabitants because they haven't evolved / reset. That's the choice Shep is making at the end, and if Shep were to survive that choice, then he is essentially cheating death.

Utter bollocks.  First, the entire premise of "synthetics will always turn on their creators" is crap and disproved by ME2 (Legion vs the "Heretics"...in which the killer synthetics WERE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE REAPERS!) and ME3 where Legion gives you the TRUE history of the Geth:Quarian problem...it wasn't synthetics attacking their creators, it was the other way around!  Then there's EDI in ME2 and 3 - not only NOT trying to turn on her creators, but actually BOINKNG one of the organic creators!  

Second, you are simply assuming that godkid is right (when he is clearly wrong...see above under Legion:Geth and EDI) and that the "highest form of evolution is synthesis".  No it isn't.  See?  I backed that up with precisely the same amount of data/proof that the kid did.  Mine is more true though because I'm not some idiot kid.  Third, you cannot do "synthesis" in any case because the godkid tells Shepard that it would require the combination of organic and synthetic DNA.  Synthetics do not have DNA!  None.  DNA is ENTIRELY an organic thing (by definition).  On top of that, how do you combine (nonexistent) synthetic DNA with organic DNA via green radio waves?  Now, I work with DNA on a regular basis and I'd LOVE to know how one combines or alters DNA via broadcast.  No contact necessary, just green magic beams sent out like radio waves.  POOF!  Space magic making "new" DNA.  IN ADDITION:  all that would be needed, at worst, for the synthesis thing was a mouth swab with a Q-tip of Shepard (or any other organic) and drop that into the magical beam.  BOOP!  Done, with Shepard fully alive because...giving a HUGE DNA sample (mouth swab, spit sample, skin biopsy, etc) is NOT fatal.  Ever.  Not in any circumstance except the truly bizarre: mouth swab breaks skin in mouth and skin break gets infected with a VERY nasty form of MRSA.  OR: taking small skin biopsy (overkill bigtime) with dirty needle directly innoculates virulant bacteria into blood.  Sepsis sets in.  Of course, being ~150yrs in the future, the medical establishment would be helpless before MRSA or any other infective organism because...because?  

Control:  no death needed there either.  We saw a simple way to control synthetics in "Overlord".  Not comfy but not fatal. 

No, the fatality schtick is ENTIRELY arbitrary and simply not necessary or realistic (in the ME universe or our own).  Garbage.  All garbage.

Look, the entire godkid, 3 choice crap is just that: crap.  It was NOT thought out.  It is NOT rational (not in the ME universe and CERTAINLY not in ours). 

You completely missed the point. The spacekid says organics and machines can't exist together, while in Shepard's experience has proven otherwise (which he himself as influneced) so therefore it is up to you to decide. And secondly, your knowledge of machines is based what we know today, who's to say that the core of AI intellegence forms their own version of a DNA-like code, or something else entirely. If you firmly believe "this is machine" and "ths is organic" then that's your point of view. The final choice you're making is entirely based on your point of view on an open-ended question that you and I currenty have no complete understanding of. And that is the point of the ending. If somehow that upsets you then you're type of person that needs literal explanations of everything to feel at ease with the world, which is impossible as it stands now. 

This makes no sense to me. Whether something is organic or synthetic is not up to someone's point of view. Something cannot be organic to one person and synthetic to another. It's pretty black and white.

[Subject M]

TacDavey wrote...

LordCrux wrote...

Getorex wrote...

LordCrux wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

LordCrux wrote...
I don't really get how the starchild being immortal can be so upsetting, other than perhaps you have a very firm belief on the issue of the after-life that the seeing starchild (and the Lazarus Project for that matter)  somehow upsets that belief. If so then I can't comment on that. For the record, I'm agnotistic, so I'm open to the possibility of something unknown, simply because I know don't know everything.

That's the thing, the Lazerus project is grounded in science.  I don't believe in any sort of afterlife, so that's a rediculous strawman.  The Starchild is just randomly immortal.  The game took a quick heel turn from science fiction to science fantasy.  It's jarring and nonsensicle.  

The reapers are immortal, and you accept from the very first game. They were 'created' by the starchild, so why would the notion that the starchild can be immortal as well seem nonsensical to you? Also the kid is in the first scene of the game, and you have recurring dream sequences of him throughout, so he didn't just pop out of nowhere. As for sci fiction / science fantasy, it's not uncommon for sci fi to explore the relationship between science and the supernatural because they're both very much intertwined. For all we know, the starchild form that you see can be just Shepard's visual interpretation of an entity that no one can comprehend.

From the very first game, the reaper storyline deals with very big ideas about life on a galactic scale, so why would a literal ending (ie, we get a Macguffin to kill the bad guys, let's party at the Citadel) serve any justice to it? Obviously, you, I, Shepard and everyone would like that to happen, but the idea in Mass Effect is that there will be point where life itself will destroy itself if it is not dealt with. And to deal with it, you either a) reset life, which is purpose of the reaper control it, which is what TIM is trying to do, or c) evolve life as know into another level, which is synthesis. So if you want an ending in which Shep survives and the Reapers are gone, then everything that you've been fighting for is for nothing in the long term, because the cycle will repeat itself. Sure, you can have blue babies with have a happy ending, but in the next 2,000 years or so, the galaxy will be destroyed be its own inhabitants because they haven't evolved / reset. That's the choice Shep is making at the end, and if Shep were to survive that choice, then he is essentially cheating death.

Utter bollocks.  First, the entire premise of "synthetics will always turn on their creators" is crap and disproved by ME2 (Legion vs the "Heretics"...in which the killer synthetics WERE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE REAPERS!) and ME3 where Legion gives you the TRUE history of the Geth:Quarian problem...it wasn't synthetics attacking their creators, it was the other way around!  Then there's EDI in ME2 and 3 - not only NOT trying to turn on her creators, but actually BOINKNG one of the organic creators!  

Second, you are simply assuming that godkid is right (when he is clearly wrong...see above under Legion:Geth and EDI) and that the "highest form of evolution is synthesis".  No it isn't.  See?  I backed that up with precisely the same amount of data/proof that the kid did.  Mine is more true though because I'm not some idiot kid.  Third, you cannot do "synthesis" in any case because the godkid tells Shepard that it would require the combination of organic and synthetic DNA.  Synthetics do not have DNA!  None.  DNA is ENTIRELY an organic thing (by definition).  On top of that, how do you combine (nonexistent) synthetic DNA with organic DNA via green radio waves?  Now, I work with DNA on a regular basis and I'd LOVE to know how one combines or alters DNA via broadcast.  No contact necessary, just green magic beams sent out like radio waves.  POOF!  Space magic making "new" DNA.  IN ADDITION:  all that would be needed, at worst, for the synthesis thing was a mouth swab with a Q-tip of Shepard (or any other organic) and drop that into the magical beam.  BOOP!  Done, with Shepard fully alive because...giving a HUGE DNA sample (mouth swab, spit sample, skin biopsy, etc) is NOT fatal.  Ever.  Not in any circumstance except the truly bizarre: mouth swab breaks skin in mouth and skin break gets infected with a VERY nasty form of MRSA.  OR: taking small skin biopsy (overkill bigtime) with dirty needle directly innoculates virulant bacteria into blood.  Sepsis sets in.  Of course, being ~150yrs in the future, the medical establishment would be helpless before MRSA or any other infective organism because...because?  

Control:  no death needed there either.  We saw a simple way to control synthetics in "Overlord".  Not comfy but not fatal. 

No, the fatality schtick is ENTIRELY arbitrary and simply not necessary or realistic (in the ME universe or our own).  Garbage.  All garbage.

Look, the entire godkid, 3 choice crap is just that: crap.  It was NOT thought out.  It is NOT rational (not in the ME universe and CERTAINLY not in ours). 

You completely missed the point. The spacekid says organics and machines can't exist together, while in Shepard's experience has proven otherwise (which he himself as influneced) so therefore it is up to you to decide. And secondly, your knowledge of machines is based what we know today, who's to say that the core of AI intellegence forms their own version of a DNA-like code, or something else entirely. If you firmly believe "this is machine" and "ths is organic" then that's your point of view. The final choice you're making is entirely based on your point of view on an open-ended question that you and I currenty have no complete understanding of. And that is the point of the ending. If somehow that upsets you then you're type of person that needs literal explanations of everything to feel at ease with the world, which is impossible as it stands now. 

This makes no sense to me. Whether something is organic or synthetic is not up to someone's point of view. Something cannot be organic to one person and synthetic to another. It's pretty black and white.

Well actually, if we disregard the notion that something can both be synthetic (in the sense of it being artificial) and organic, there is also the question of "doctrinal purist" views on cybernetic (synthesis) life-forms. A radical group may think that Shepard or quarians are "too synthetic"

[TacDavey]

Subject M wrote...

TacDavey wrote...

LordCrux wrote...

Getorex wrote...

LordCrux wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

LordCrux wrote...
I don't really get how the starchild being immortal can be so upsetting, other than perhaps you have a very firm belief on the issue of the after-life that the seeing starchild (and the Lazarus Project for that matter)  somehow upsets that belief. If so then I can't comment on that. For the record, I'm agnotistic, so I'm open to the possibility of something unknown, simply because I know don't know everything.

That's the thing, the Lazerus project is grounded in science.  I don't believe in any sort of afterlife, so that's a rediculous strawman.  The Starchild is just randomly immortal.  The game took a quick heel turn from science fiction to science fantasy.  It's jarring and nonsensicle.  

The reapers are immortal, and you accept from the very first game. They were 'created' by the starchild, so why would the notion that the starchild can be immortal as well seem nonsensical to you? Also the kid is in the first scene of the game, and you have recurring dream sequences of him throughout, so he didn't just pop out of nowhere. As for sci fiction / science fantasy, it's not uncommon for sci fi to explore the relationship between science and the supernatural because they're both very much intertwined. For all we know, the starchild form that you see can be just Shepard's visual interpretation of an entity that no one can comprehend.

From the very first game, the reaper storyline deals with very big ideas about life on a galactic scale, so why would a literal ending (ie, we get a Macguffin to kill the bad guys, let's party at the Citadel) serve any justice to it? Obviously, you, I, Shepard and everyone would like that to happen, but the idea in Mass Effect is that there will be point where life itself will destroy itself if it is not dealt with. And to deal with it, you either a) reset life, which is purpose of the reaper control it, which is what TIM is trying to do, or c) evolve life as know into another level, which is synthesis. So if you want an ending in which Shep survives and the Reapers are gone, then everything that you've been fighting for is for nothing in the long term, because the cycle will repeat itself. Sure, you can have blue babies with have a happy ending, but in the next 2,000 years or so, the galaxy will be destroyed be its own inhabitants because they haven't evolved / reset. That's the choice Shep is making at the end, and if Shep were to survive that choice, then he is essentially cheating death.

Utter bollocks.  First, the entire premise of "synthetics will always turn on their creators" is crap and disproved by ME2 (Legion vs the "Heretics"...in which the killer synthetics WERE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE REAPERS!) and ME3 where Legion gives you the TRUE history of the Geth:Quarian problem...it wasn't synthetics attacking their creators, it was the other way around!  Then there's EDI in ME2 and 3 - not only NOT trying to turn on her creators, but actually BOINKNG one of the organic creators!  

Second, you are simply assuming that godkid is right (when he is clearly wrong...see above under Legion:Geth and EDI) and that the "highest form of evolution is synthesis".  No it isn't.  See?  I backed that up with precisely the same amount of data/proof that the kid did.  Mine is more true though because I'm not some idiot kid.  Third, you cannot do "synthesis" in any case because the godkid tells Shepard that it would require the combination of organic and synthetic DNA.  Synthetics do not have DNA!  None.  DNA is ENTIRELY an organic thing (by definition).  On top of that, how do you combine (nonexistent) synthetic DNA with organic DNA via green radio waves?  Now, I work with DNA on a regular basis and I'd LOVE to know how one combines or alters DNA via broadcast.  No contact necessary, just green magic beams sent out like radio waves.  POOF!  Space magic making "new" DNA.  IN ADDITION:  all that would be needed, at worst, for the synthesis thing was a mouth swab with a Q-tip of Shepard (or any other organic) and drop that into the magical beam.  BOOP!  Done, with Shepard fully alive because...giving a HUGE DNA sample (mouth swab, spit sample, skin biopsy, etc) is NOT fatal.  Ever.  Not in any circumstance except the truly bizarre: mouth swab breaks skin in mouth and skin break gets infected with a VERY nasty form of MRSA.  OR: taking small skin biopsy (overkill bigtime) with dirty needle directly innoculates virulant bacteria into blood.  Sepsis sets in.  Of course, being ~150yrs in the future, the medical establishment would be helpless before MRSA or any other infective organism because...because?  

Control:  no death needed there either.  We saw a simple way to control synthetics in "Overlord".  Not comfy but not fatal. 

No, the fatality schtick is ENTIRELY arbitrary and simply not necessary or realistic (in the ME universe or our own).  Garbage.  All garbage.

Look, the entire godkid, 3 choice crap is just that: crap.  It was NOT thought out.  It is NOT rational (not in the ME universe and CERTAINLY not in ours). 

You completely missed the point. The spacekid says organics and machines can't exist together, while in Shepard's experience has proven otherwise (which he himself as influneced) so therefore it is up to you to decide. And secondly, your knowledge of machines is based what we know today, who's to say that the core of AI intellegence forms their own version of a DNA-like code, or something else entirely. If you firmly believe "this is machine" and "ths is organic" then that's your point of view. The final choice you're making is entirely based on your point of view on an open-ended question that you and I currenty have no complete understanding of. And that is the point of the ending. If somehow that upsets you then you're type of person that needs literal explanations of everything to feel at ease with the world, which is impossible as it stands now. 

This makes no sense to me. Whether something is organic or synthetic is not up to someone's point of view. Something cannot be organic to one person and synthetic to another. It's pretty black and white.

Well actually, if we disregard the notion that something can both be synthetic (in the sense of it being artificial) and organic, there is also the question of "doctrinal purist" views on cybernetic (synthesis) life-forms. A radical group may think that Shepard or quarians are "too synthetic"

But, like you said, that would be a "radical" point of view. Having synthetic parts doesn't make you synthetic. And having organic components doesn't make you organic.

[Thrombin]

Han Shot First wrote...

Imagine for a moment if Saving Private Ryan ended with not a single member of the squad dying on the beach, or in the final battle in the town. Whatever emotional impact that victory scene would have had would have be undercut both by the implausible nature of that victory, and the fact that it was achieved without any sacrifice. Captain Miller's dying words to Private Ryan, to "Earn this," would have had no meaning if they all walked away to live happily ever after.

The final battle against the Reapers should involve someone on the team dying. If it isn't Shepard, it should be a crew member or two.

But ask yourself, which ending would Privste Ryan prefer? The one with artistic impact and emotional depth or the one where his friends and comrades live?

The problem with ME3 is that, to a lot of us, we are our character. Or we, at least, care deeply about our character and his/her friends. artistic integrity isn't the goal when it's someone you really care about. When I finished ME2 with no deaths it was a great moment, not a cheap one. When people died I reloaded and tried again. I don't mind some deaths. All the ones leading up to the end were fitting moments and intensified my desire for ultimate victory but what there was was enough. No need not to let the final moments be triumphant victory instead of overwhelming sadness. Personally, I don't like paying for games or films that make me sad.

[Getorex]

TacDavey wrote...

LordCrux wrote...

Getorex wrote...

LordCrux wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

LordCrux wrote...
I don't really get how the starchild being immortal can be so upsetting, other than perhaps you have a very firm belief on the issue of the after-life that the seeing starchild (and the Lazarus Project for that matter)  somehow upsets that belief. If so then I can't comment on that. For the record, I'm agnotistic, so I'm open to the possibility of something unknown, simply because I know don't know everything.

That's the thing, the Lazerus project is grounded in science.  I don't believe in any sort of afterlife, so that's a rediculous strawman.  The Starchild is just randomly immortal.  The game took a quick heel turn from science fiction to science fantasy.  It's jarring and nonsensicle.  

The reapers are immortal, and you accept from the very first game. They were 'created' by the starchild, so why would the notion that the starchild can be immortal as well seem nonsensical to you? Also the kid is in the first scene of the game, and you have recurring dream sequences of him throughout, so he didn't just pop out of nowhere. As for sci fiction / science fantasy, it's not uncommon for sci fi to explore the relationship between science and the supernatural because they're both very much intertwined. For all we know, the starchild form that you see can be just Shepard's visual interpretation of an entity that no one can comprehend.

From the very first game, the reaper storyline deals with very big ideas about life on a galactic scale, so why would a literal ending (ie, we get a Macguffin to kill the bad guys, let's party at the Citadel) serve any justice to it? Obviously, you, I, Shepard and everyone would like that to happen, but the idea in Mass Effect is that there will be point where life itself will destroy itself if it is not dealt with. And to deal with it, you either a) reset life, which is purpose of the reaper control it, which is what TIM is trying to do, or c) evolve life as know into another level, which is synthesis. So if you want an ending in which Shep survives and the Reapers are gone, then everything that you've been fighting for is for nothing in the long term, because the cycle will repeat itself. Sure, you can have blue babies with have a happy ending, but in the next 2,000 years or so, the galaxy will be destroyed be its own inhabitants because they haven't evolved / reset. That's the choice Shep is making at the end, and if Shep were to survive that choice, then he is essentially cheating death.

Utter bollocks.  First, the entire premise of "synthetics will always turn on their creators" is crap and disproved by ME2 (Legion vs the "Heretics"...in which the killer synthetics WERE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE REAPERS!) and ME3 where Legion gives you the TRUE history of the Geth:Quarian problem...it wasn't synthetics attacking their creators, it was the other way around!  Then there's EDI in ME2 and 3 - not only NOT trying to turn on her creators, but actually BOINKNG one of the organic creators!  

Second, you are simply assuming that godkid is right (when he is clearly wrong...see above under Legion:Geth and EDI) and that the "highest form of evolution is synthesis".  No it isn't.  See?  I backed that up with precisely the same amount of data/proof that the kid did.  Mine is more true though because I'm not some idiot kid.  Third, you cannot do "synthesis" in any case because the godkid tells Shepard that it would require the combination of organic and synthetic DNA.  Synthetics do not have DNA!  None.  DNA is ENTIRELY an organic thing (by definition).  On top of that, how do you combine (nonexistent) synthetic DNA with organic DNA via green radio waves?  Now, I work with DNA on a regular basis and I'd LOVE to know how one combines or alters DNA via broadcast.  No contact necessary, just green magic beams sent out like radio waves.  POOF!  Space magic making "new" DNA.  IN ADDITION:  all that would be needed, at worst, for the synthesis thing was a mouth swab with a Q-tip of Shepard (or any other organic) and drop that into the magical beam.  BOOP!  Done, with Shepard fully alive because...giving a HUGE DNA sample (mouth swab, spit sample, skin biopsy, etc) is NOT fatal.  Ever.  Not in any circumstance except the truly bizarre: mouth swab breaks skin in mouth and skin break gets infected with a VERY nasty form of MRSA.  OR: taking small skin biopsy (overkill bigtime) with dirty needle directly innoculates virulant bacteria into blood.  Sepsis sets in.  Of course, being ~150yrs in the future, the medical establishment would be helpless before MRSA or any other infective organism because...because?  

Control:  no death needed there either.  We saw a simple way to control synthetics in "Overlord".  Not comfy but not fatal. 

No, the fatality schtick is ENTIRELY arbitrary and simply not necessary or realistic (in the ME universe or our own).  Garbage.  All garbage.

Look, the entire godkid, 3 choice crap is just that: crap.  It was NOT thought out.  It is NOT rational (not in the ME universe and CERTAINLY not in ours). 

You completely missed the point. The spacekid says organics and machines can't exist together, while in Shepard's experience has proven otherwise (which he himself as influneced) so therefore it is up to you to decide. And secondly, your knowledge of machines is based what we know today, who's to say that the core of AI intellegence forms their own version of a DNA-like code, or something else entirely. If you firmly believe "this is machine" and "ths is organic" then that's your point of view. The final choice you're making is entirely based on your point of view on an open-ended question that you and I currenty have no complete understanding of. And that is the point of the ending. If somehow that upsets you then you're type of person that needs literal explanations of everything to feel at ease with the world, which is impossible as it stands now. 

This makes no sense to me. Whether something is organic or synthetic is not up to someone's point of view. Something cannot be organic to one person and synthetic to another. It's pretty black and white.

Exactly.  "Organic" has a strict, straightforward definition.  There can be no "Organic to me is not organic to you".  Organic for me IS organic for you IS organic for them.  Organic = organic.  Black and white indeed.

[dayvancowboy1]

 i want THIS ending
penny-arcade.smugmug.com/photos/i-dfFJj7N/0/L/i-dfFJj7N-X2.jpg

[Thrombin]

dayvancowboy1 wrote...

 i want THIS ending
penny-arcade.smugmug.com/photos/i-dfFJj7N/0/L/i-dfFJj7N-X2.jpg

I could live with that 

[Wynne]

JBONE27 wrote...

I've seen a lot of people on this board who either say, "Don't change the ending to something happy," or "I hope the ending DLC doesn't have a happy ending."  I say, if you have to work for it, why not have a happy ending.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has grown to love these characters, and I do want to see them happy.  Do I think the happy ending should be easy to achieve... HELL NO!  I believe that what ever is worth having, it's worth working hard for, and a happy ending with everyone you care about surviving, is worth having. 

I didn't want a happy ending. 

Or a sad ending. 

I wanted different endings. And that's exactly what I didn't get. Every single ending is morally repugnant and confusing; not a single one is an appealing choice whether Shepard and her/his crew dies or not. No Shepard would blandly accept what some cosmic ghost proposes when every single option is terrible and blows up the mass relays. 

I wanted endings that made sense. Happy-ish (please, no one thought there would be a truly sugar-sweet ending), sad, bittersweet... I wanted that to depend on me--my characters' actions. That was not the case.

[kalle90]

Thrombin wrote...

dayvancowboy1 wrote...

 i want THIS ending
penny-arcade.smugmug.com/photos/i-dfFJj7N/0/L/i-dfFJj7N-X2.jpg

I could live with that 

I would also accept EA/Bioware sending everyone a trophy/medal for completing the game, like how that 1 guy (insulted) this whole mess. I'd so walk into a restaurant going "I saved the galaxy! Where's my free meal?"

[paxxton]

I want all sunshine and bunnies and rainbows but Bioware will give us a Texas Chainsaw Massacre. There has to be that sacrifice, right?

Modifié par paxxton, 02 avril 2012 - 11:22 .

[exterminator_]

I am happy with my ending

cause my shepard lives!

and i destroyed the noob reapers once and for all

with this way i can make a nice family with Ashley, when i find her again ...

And i got revenge for the death of Anderson

cause i dont trust the stupid robots and i also hear all the advice from my prothean warrior ally Javis so i finalize my choice

For the humanity !!!

[daecath]

Because somehow people have gotten it in their heads that Dark = profound, happy = shallow. Not to put to fine a point on it, but that's just stupid. Maybe if there were a little more rainbows and puppies in the world, maybe if there were more good, inspirational, hopeful, well written, inspirational works of art out there, the world might just be a better place. Art matters. Art effects us, whether we know it or not. It creeps into our every day lives. It becomes a part of us. You can have drama, you can be profound, you can portray a realistic situation, and still produce a happy ending. There should be all kinds of endings - joyful, bleak, bittersweet, and everything in between. The ending you get should flow from your choices in the game. Unite the races of the galaxy, build your resources, and do everything "right", and in the end you survive, the galaxy survives, and you get the reward for your hard work. Half-ass your way through it, and you get an ending that's not as happy, perhaps even the bad ending where everything is destroyed. But absolutely, a happy ending should be available.

[Thrombin]

daecath wrote...

Because somehow people have gotten it in their heads that Dark = profound, happy = shallow. Not to put to fine a point on it, but that's just stupid. Maybe if there were a little more rainbows and puppies in the world, maybe if there were more good, inspirational, hopeful, well written, inspirational works of art out there, the world might just be a better place. Art matters. Art effects us, whether we know it or not. It creeps into our every day lives. It becomes a part of us. You can have drama, you can be profound, you can portray a realistic situation, and still produce a happy ending. There should be all kinds of endings - joyful, bleak, bittersweet, and everything in between. The ending you get should flow from your choices in the game. Unite the races of the galaxy, build your resources, and do everything "right", and in the end you survive, the galaxy survives, and you get the reward for your hard work. Half-ass your way through it, and you get an ending that's not as happy, perhaps even the bad ending where everything is destroyed. But absolutely, a happy ending should be available.

Great post!

Contrary to popular belief good things can happen to good people.

[Sharkster]

daecath wrote...

Because somehow people have gotten it in their heads that Dark = profound, happy = shallow. Not to put to fine a point on it, but that's just stupid. Maybe if there were a little more rainbows and puppies in the world, maybe if there were more good, inspirational, hopeful, well written, inspirational works of art out there, the world might just be a better place. Art matters. Art effects us, whether we know it or not. It creeps into our every day lives. It becomes a part of us. You can have drama, you can be profound, you can portray a realistic situation, and still produce a happy ending. There should be all kinds of endings - joyful, bleak, bittersweet, and everything in between. The ending you get should flow from your choices in the game. Unite the races of the galaxy, build your resources, and do everything "right", and in the end you survive, the galaxy survives, and you get the reward for your hard work. Half-ass your way through it, and you get an ending that's not as happy, perhaps even the bad ending where everything is destroyed. But absolutely, a happy ending should be available.

Hear, hear.

Of course there is a good point to having something dark at the end of (some, certainly not all) stories, but the wholesale nihilism on display in the current ending has destroyed any bit of hope.

As for realism, uhm, maybe I'm leading an extremely sheltered life, but not everything I ever do turns into an unmitigated disaster of epic proportions in the end. (All right, others may disagree here. ) I don't find "always dark/always grim'n'gritty" to be realistic at all. A mix fits it much better -- something that actually is "bitter-sweet", with several variations on what the ratio betwen the two is.

...

BTW, looking over the thread, I now want a robot unicorn.

[SnailManDom]

I just want different endings. If there was a terribad ending where the reapers kill everyone on one end of the spectrum, some in the middle endings like the current ones, and then a happy ending on the other end of the spectrum, that would be fine. Great, even. And the galaxy has still sacrificed the lives of millions, if not billions, already at this point, so an ideal ending still wouldn't be what the critics are calling, "rainbows and unicorns".

[exterminator_]

Guys !!! the endings with synthesis and controlling the reaper

are completely stupid ... and in my story of my commander shepard are irrelevant

When you have battle readiness 100%

and 7800 army at your command, the reapers are USELESS !!!!!

YOU DONT NEED THEM !!!! - AND IF THEY RIZE AGAIN - K I L L THEM AGAIN FOR

HUMANITY AND FOR YOUR FAMILY = Renegade

Also my Shepard in the end dont die and he is alive with Ashley, my babe and the prothean friend

As for the geth ... THEY DONT DIE, cause after the death - Sacrifice of Legion, they became SELF AWARE,

AI'S so they dont need the reaper upgrades anymore SIMPLE AND NICE, same theory applies also to EDI .- 

As for me i am part synthetic

BUT I AM ALIVE SO I DONT CARE

Commander Stylianos Shepard Out

Modifié par exterminator , 03 avril 2012 - 03:06 .

[Thrombin]

An AI is already self-aware. That's what makes it an AI and not a VI. They will definitely die from the destroy ending.

Personally I think control is the only sensible ending. You have three choices, all of which will stop the Reapers. one requires you to commit genocide, one requires you to violate the essence of every creature in the galaxy and one causes no harm to anyone. Go figure!

Modifié par Thrombin, 03 avril 2012 - 05:51 .

[exterminator_]

I still prefer my ending, Anderson will done the same

so i preserve his memory and sacrifice and destroy the stupid reapers

cause Thrombin, with the right allies EVEN A GOD CAN be KILLED !!!

[ile_1979]

Wynne wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

I've seen a lot of people on this board who either say, "Don't change the ending to something happy," or "I hope the ending DLC doesn't have a happy ending."  I say, if you have to work for it, why not have a happy ending.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has grown to love these characters, and I do want to see them happy.  Do I think the happy ending should be easy to achieve... HELL NO!  I believe that what ever is worth having, it's worth working hard for, and a happy ending with everyone you care about surviving, is worth having. 

I didn't want a happy ending. 

Or a sad ending. 

I wanted different endings. And that's exactly what I didn't get. Every single ending is morally repugnant and confusing; not a single one is an appealing choice whether Shepard and her/his crew dies or not. No Shepard would blandly accept what some cosmic ghost proposes when every single option is terrible and blows up the mass relays. 

I wanted endings that made sense. Happy-ish (please, no one thought there would be a truly sugar-sweet ending), sad, bittersweet... I wanted that to depend on me--my characters' actions. That was not the case.

Amen to that mage!

[JBONE27]

Getorex wrote...

LordCrux wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

LordCrux wrote...
I don't really get how the starchild being immortal can be so upsetting, other than perhaps you have a very firm belief on the issue of the after-life that the seeing starchild (and the Lazarus Project for that matter)  somehow upsets that belief. If so then I can't comment on that. For the record, I'm agnotistic, so I'm open to the possibility of something unknown, simply because I know don't know everything.

That's the thing, the Lazerus project is grounded in science.  I don't believe in any sort of afterlife, so that's a rediculous strawman.  The Starchild is just randomly immortal.  The game took a quick heel turn from science fiction to science fantasy.  It's jarring and nonsensicle.  

The reapers are immortal, and you accept from the very first game. They were 'created' by the starchild, so why would the notion that the starchild can be immortal as well seem nonsensical to you? Also the kid is in the first scene of the game, and you have recurring dream sequences of him throughout, so he didn't just pop out of nowhere. As for sci fiction / science fantasy, it's not uncommon for sci fi to explore the relationship between science and the supernatural because they're both very much intertwined. For all we know, the starchild form that you see can be just Shepard's visual interpretation of an entity that no one can comprehend.

From the very first game, the reaper storyline deals with very big ideas about life on a galactic scale, so why would a literal ending (ie, we get a Macguffin to kill the bad guys, let's party at the Citadel) serve any justice to it? Obviously, you, I, Shepard and everyone would like that to happen, but the idea in Mass Effect is that there will be point where life itself will destroy itself if it is not dealt with. And to deal with it, you either a) reset life, which is purpose of the reaper control it, which is what TIM is trying to do, or c) evolve life as know into another level, which is synthesis. So if you want an ending in which Shep survives and the Reapers are gone, then everything that you've been fighting for is for nothing in the long term, because the cycle will repeat itself. Sure, you can have blue babies with have a happy ending, but in the next 2,000 years or so, the galaxy will be destroyed be its own inhabitants because they haven't evolved / reset. That's the choice Shep is making at the end, and if Shep were to survive that choice, then he is essentially cheating death.

Utter bollocks.  First, the entire premise of "synthetics will always turn on their creators" is crap and disproved by ME2 (Legion vs the "Heretics"...in which the killer synthetics WERE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE REAPERS!) and ME3 where Legion gives you the TRUE history of the Geth:Quarian problem...it wasn't synthetics attacking their creators, it was the other way around!  Then there's EDI in ME2 and 3 - not only NOT trying to turn on her creators, but actually BOINKNG one of the organic creators!  

Second, you are simply assuming that godkid is right (when he is clearly wrong...see above under Legion:Geth and EDI) and that the "highest form of evolution is synthesis".  No it isn't.  See?  I backed that up with precisely the same amount of data/proof that the kid did.  Mine is more true though because I'm not some idiot kid.  Third, you cannot do "synthesis" in any case because the godkid tells Shepard that it would require the combination of organic and synthetic DNA.  Synthetics do not have DNA!  None.  DNA is ENTIRELY an organic thing (by definition).  On top of that, how do you combine (nonexistent) synthetic DNA with organic DNA via green radio waves?  Now, I work with DNA on a regular basis and I'd LOVE to know how one combines or alters DNA via broadcast.  No contact necessary, just green magic beams sent out like radio waves.  POOF!  Space magic making "new" DNA.  IN ADDITION:  all that would be needed, at worst, for the synthesis thing was a mouth swab with a Q-tip of Shepard (or any other organic) and drop that into the magical beam.  BOOP!  Done, with Shepard fully alive because...giving a HUGE DNA sample (mouth swab, spit sample, skin biopsy, etc) is NOT fatal.  Ever.  Not in any circumstance except the truly bizarre: mouth swab breaks skin in mouth and skin break gets infected with a VERY nasty form of MRSA.  OR: taking small skin biopsy (overkill bigtime) with dirty needle directly innoculates virulant bacteria into blood.  Sepsis sets in.  Of course, being ~150yrs in the future, the medical establishment would be helpless before MRSA or any other infective organism because...because?  

Control:  no death needed there either.  We saw a simple way to control synthetics in "Overlord".  Not comfy but not fatal. 

No, the fatality schtick is ENTIRELY arbitrary and simply not necessary or realistic (in the ME universe or our own).  Garbage.  All garbage.

Look, the entire godkid, 3 choice crap is just that: crap.  It was NOT thought out.  It is NOT rational (not in the ME universe and CERTAINLY not in ours). 

Not to mention that there is no ultimate evolution.  Evolution is an ongoing process of living things adapting to their environment.  There is no set course.

[JBONE27]

Wynne wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

I've seen a lot of people on this board who either say, "Don't change the ending to something happy," or "I hope the ending DLC doesn't have a happy ending."  I say, if you have to work for it, why not have a happy ending.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has grown to love these characters, and I do want to see them happy.  Do I think the happy ending should be easy to achieve... HELL NO!  I believe that what ever is worth having, it's worth working hard for, and a happy ending with everyone you care about surviving, is worth having. 

I didn't want a happy ending. 

Or a sad ending. 

I wanted different endings. And that's exactly what I didn't get. Every single ending is morally repugnant and confusing; not a single one is an appealing choice whether Shepard and her/his crew dies or not. No Shepard would blandly accept what some cosmic ghost proposes when every single option is terrible and blows up the mass relays. 

I wanted endings that made sense. Happy-ish (please, no one thought there would be a truly sugar-sweet ending), sad, bittersweet... I wanted that to depend on me--my characters' actions. That was not the case.

That was exactly what I was saying.  By "Happy" I mean, Shepard most, if not all of his/her crew live, and the galaxy no longer goes through the cycle.  But, you have to work for that ending,.  You have to make the right choices in all three games, and those choices impact the final outcome and above all else fits in with the narrative set up... in other words MAKES SENSE.

Modifié par JBONE27, 03 avril 2012 - 11:00 .

[JBONE27]

daecath wrote...

Because somehow people have gotten it in their heads that Dark = profound, happy = shallow. Not to put to fine a point on it, but that's just stupid. Maybe if there were a little more rainbows and puppies in the world, maybe if there were more good, inspirational, hopeful, well written, inspirational works of art out there, the world might just be a better place. Art matters. Art effects us, whether we know it or not. It creeps into our every day lives. It becomes a part of us. You can have drama, you can be profound, you can portray a realistic situation, and still produce a happy ending. There should be all kinds of endings - joyful, bleak, bittersweet, and everything in between. The ending you get should flow from your choices in the game. Unite the races of the galaxy, build your resources, and do everything "right", and in the end you survive, the galaxy survives, and you get the reward for your hard work. Half-ass your way through it, and you get an ending that's not as happy, perhaps even the bad ending where everything is destroyed. But absolutely, a happy ending should be available.

Well said.