650 réponses à ce sujet

[kbct]

Wiggs Magee wrote...

I don't see the problem with ONE of the endings being hopeful, that way everyone can be happy. People who want a more darker ending can achieve that while people who wish to see Shepard & Co reunited can also get that.

BioWare should definitely make the option for a happy ending. There is definitely the demand for it.

If people that vote with their wallets want a happy ending, give them a happy ending.

Also, let the people that want the reapers to win have their ending as well.

[The Razman]

JBONE27 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

It's not flicking a switch.  It's being a completitionist, and making the right choices.  For example, if Romeo had chosen to tell Juliette's parents that he was in love with her, they would have actually been okay with the marriage.  How do I know this?  At one point they remark on the fact that Romeo is a kind and noble boy, and how his family would be so much better if they were all like him.  Or Othello, if Othello had been thorough in his "investigation" of his wife's supposed infidelity, then he would have discovered that Iago was a liar.  Or if Oedopus's parents had decided to completely disregard the orical, they would have had a happy royal family life.  If the Onceler had decided to only harvest the tufts of the truffelup trees, then all the brown barbalutes would have remained in the forest playing in their barbalute suits.

The saddest thing about tradgedy is that if one tiny choice was made differently, the tradgedy could have completely been avoided.  Since the war with the reapers is unavoidable regardless of what anyone does, then the success or failure must be due to a choice made in game.

You seem to be arguing against your intention? If the point of good tragedy is that if a tiny choice was made differently, it could've been averted ... then the emotional impact of that tragedy is completely disintegrated by having that alternative actually be playable with as much canonicity as the tragic option.

It would be like if there was a choice to prevent Eli Vance from dying at the end of Half Life 2: Episode 2 if you played really well. The impact of that moment would be completely lost.

I'm saying that not everyone (including some of the writers) wants Mass Effect to be a tradgedy, and you seem to be forgeting that it is a GAME.  People don't play games to watch everything they played for end.  Why don't you want to give the people who want a triuphant space opera, a triuphrant space opera, if again, some of the writers wanted it that way?

What? What does it matter what "some of the writers" allegedly wanted? What the writing team created in the end is all that matters. Every writer has different visions for a project, that's why when you have a writing team you have a lead writer vetoing the bad ones and choosing an overall direction and making the executive writing decisions. That's how scriptwriting works.

It doesn't matter what anybody wanted Mass Effect to be, except for the people who wrote it. That's all there is to it.

[BeefoTheBold]

I wonder if the people who are arguing against the inclusion of a happy (or at least less crotch kicking) ending are the same ones who argued that the MP is "optional" and that people who don't like it don't have to play it?

If someone want so target an ending where everybody dies and the galaxy goes to ****, then by all means, let them have that as one of the ending OPTIONS.

But the rest of us would like to have endings, OPTIONAL endings, wherein all of our efforts and all of our time and completion zeal doesn't result in being utterly meaningless.

Given that the MP ended up not being "optional", why not make having a TRUE Bittersweet ending mandatory as well? We were promised that our choices would matter after all.

Folks who want their depressing, pointless ending don't have to avail themselves of the entirely optional reasonably uplifting ending if they don't want to.

Modifié par BeefoTheBold, 30 mars 2012 - 10:46 .

[The Razman]

JBONE27 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

And (outside of the ending) they did a great job of instilling a lot of emotions.  I cried at certain points.  I laughed so hard I nearly vomited at others.  I got incredibly turned on at one point.  Who are you to say which emotion they were going for, for the ending, and therefore the enitre game?

In point of fact, Casey Hudson I believe, though I could be wrong, wanted a hopeful ending.  How is a happy ending, where Shepard and his/her crew are off to either help rebuild the galaxy or retire not hopeful?

I'm not saying what emotions they were going for, specifically. I'm saying that changing the ending to make it into a happy one would quite obviously result in a different emotional impact to whichever one they originally intended. You can't slap a generic emotional adjective with your own interpretation (such as "hopeful") onto two very different endings and say they perform the same, emotionally. If that's not the emotion they're trying to create, that's not the emotion they're trying to create.

And you can't go around telling them to write an ending which makes you feel differently just because you'd prefer it that way.

Again, this is a game built around CHOICE.  Have you ever read a choose your own adventure story?  Most of the time you make a poor decision and die.  Sometimes you make the right one and live happily ever after.  It's not about changing the ending to change the way it makes me feel, it's about changing the ending to incorperate the big choices promised by the current game and its other installments.

... when was the last Choose Your Own Adventure story you read that had an enormous emotional impact in its ending?

[JBONE27]

arial wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

arial wrote...

reason alot of us don't want a happy ending is that this is a war. wars end in Sacrifice, and Shepard is the perfect example for this.

not to mention those of us who are parents have another reason, CBC news had a story a few months ago about more and more students are enlisting in the military after High School, and it is believed that its because games nowadays "Beautify" war, and often show a happy ending.

war never ends like that, war always ends with death and sacrifice, and the gaming industry has to start showing this.

Apparently you missed the part where this game was rated MA, as in mature audience only, and those children who are gullible enough to think of war as something romantic because they play video games should have better parents who will teach them how to be skeptical.

it does not matter the rating, parents will still by there kids games inapropriate for there ages, the gaming industry needs to realize this and show what war is actually like, full of tears, gief, and sacrifice. and ME3 has done a great job showing this

I agree, up to a point.  And you will still have that with the "Happy ending."  Remember all the planets that were destroyed, and remember all the friends you've lost along the way.  It's still a war, the happy ending is just Shepard and crew surviving to either rebuild the galaxy or retire.

I still think that children should learn more from their parents than from video games.  Hell, I was raised on GI Joe, He-Man, and Star Wars, but you know where I got my real opinion on war?  From my parents telling me that peaceful solutions should be reached whenever possible, from getting beaten up by other kids, by actually learning about real wars and how horrible they actually are.

[Subject M]

The Razman wrote...

Sounds good to me. Why would you assume people would want or need to feel more sadness, pain and loss then necessary? There still is lots of that stuff in the game before the ending.

Whether or not you want to feel these emotions isn't the point. It's the emotions the writers are attempting to instil. That's their job, to make us feel emotions.

Yes, their job is to make us feel emotions. But their prime focus should be on us feeling satisfaction. How is this done? By allowing the ending to reflect our Shepard's accomplishments, goals and choices.

While I can understand the idea that an happy ending can make an unhappy ending feel less final (for that is what i think you are getting at) the very idea of an unavoidable unhappy ending ruins the replay value for many players.

And quite frankly, I would think most people can immerse enough in a sad ending to find it sad enough, even if there is a "happier ending" out there (the alternative is far worse), especially if it is tied to how you role-play your character. If you, for example have a character that in several discussions with teammates affirming doom and gloom ahead "See you on the other side", or is focused more on death and destruction then life, then it would not be strange if that Shepard met such an end.

[The Razman]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

If someone want so target an ending where everybody dies and the galaxy goes to ****, then by all means, let them have that as one of the ending OPTIONS.

But the rest of us would like to have endings, OPTIONAL endings, wherein all of our efforts and all of our time and completion zeal doesn't result in being utterly meaningless.

Tragedy with an off-switch is utterly meaningless. That's what we've been saying.

You can't have your happy ending option without destroying the sad ending option. And Bioware chose to make a sad ending. Live with it.

[JBONE27]

The Razman wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

And (outside of the ending) they did a great job of instilling a lot of emotions.  I cried at certain points.  I laughed so hard I nearly vomited at others.  I got incredibly turned on at one point.  Who are you to say which emotion they were going for, for the ending, and therefore the enitre game?

In point of fact, Casey Hudson I believe, though I could be wrong, wanted a hopeful ending.  How is a happy ending, where Shepard and his/her crew are off to either help rebuild the galaxy or retire not hopeful?

I'm not saying what emotions they were going for, specifically. I'm saying that changing the ending to make it into a happy one would quite obviously result in a different emotional impact to whichever one they originally intended. You can't slap a generic emotional adjective with your own interpretation (such as "hopeful") onto two very different endings and say they perform the same, emotionally. If that's not the emotion they're trying to create, that's not the emotion they're trying to create.

And you can't go around telling them to write an ending which makes you feel differently just because you'd prefer it that way.

Again, this is a game built around CHOICE.  Have you ever read a choose your own adventure story?  Most of the time you make a poor decision and die.  Sometimes you make the right one and live happily ever after.  It's not about changing the ending to change the way it makes me feel, it's about changing the ending to incorperate the big choices promised by the current game and its other installments.

... when was the last Choose Your Own Adventure story you read that had an enormous emotional impact in its ending?

About 15 years ago.  I ended up making all the right decisions in the first go.  I felt proud, happy, relieved, and yet sad because I knew everyone else in my family was killed.  It was actually really well done... Why do you ask?

Modifié par JBONE27, 30 mars 2012 - 10:50 .

[Kinawi]

In a perfect world, I'd love a happy ending. While I know loss is inevitable, I would like my Shepard to settle with his/her love interest somewhere, and partake in the rebuilding of... well... everything after the Reaper invasion.

[BeefoTheBold]

The Razman wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

If someone want so target an ending where everybody dies and the galaxy goes to ****, then by all means, let them have that as one of the ending OPTIONS.

But the rest of us would like to have endings, OPTIONAL endings, wherein all of our efforts and all of our time and completion zeal doesn't result in being utterly meaningless.

Tragedy with an off-switch is utterly meaningless. That's what we've been saying.

You can't have your happy ending option without destroying the sad ending option. And Bioware chose to make a sad ending. Live with it.

No offense intended, but how does that even remotely make sense? The whole point of branching storylines is to lead to different end-states.

In no way does having a "happy" ending preclude there being a "sad" ending.

[kbct]

The Razman wrote...

Tragedy with an off-switch is utterly meaningless. That's what we've been saying.

You can't have your happy ending option without destroying the sad ending option. And Bioware chose to make a sad ending. Live with it.

Then don't make it a tragedy.

I think we should give people what they want. If you don't like it, don't download the DLC. Keep your "perfect" ending.

[Heather Cline]

No it's not. Look at DA:O they had different endings and there was a sad ending where the Warden died. Was it meaningless? No it wasn't. There were also a couple of other different endings were Alistair died, Loghain died, or no one died.

It didn't make any less of an impact on any of the endings in DA:O. So Razman your argument of having an off-switch makes tragedy meaningless has been disproven.

[The Razman]

Subject M wrote...

While I can understand the idea that an happy ending can make an unhappy ending feel less final (for that is what i think you are getting at) the very idea of an unavoidable unhappy ending ruins the replay value for many players.

That's really their problem. The end of Blackadder ruined the rewatch value of the last series for me for a while ... until I realised that what the hell, it was a beautifully emotional ending, and it being sad doesn't stop me laughing at the rest of the show up to that point.

And no, it's not a case of it being "less final". It's a case of it not having any impact whatsoever. Emotions which hurt you can't have an off-switch, otherwise there's no point to them. If you could change the end of Romeo & Juliet so that they both live, get married and are happy, the unhappy ending to it wouldn't have any hold over you anymore, would it?

[Subject M]

The Razman wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

If someone want so target an ending where everybody dies and the galaxy goes to ****, then by all means, let them have that as one of the ending OPTIONS.

But the rest of us would like to have endings, OPTIONAL endings, wherein all of our efforts and all of our time and completion zeal doesn't result in being utterly meaningless.

Tragedy with an off-switch is utterly meaningless. That's what we've been saying.

You can't have your happy ending option without destroying the sad ending option. And Bioware chose to make a sad ending. Live with it.

I call BS on this. At least for this type of game and at least for myself. But I suspect I am not alone.

[The Razman]

kbct wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Tragedy with an off-switch is utterly meaningless. That's what we've been saying.

You can't have your happy ending option without destroying the sad ending option. And Bioware chose to make a sad ending. Live with it.

Then don't make it a tragedy.

They wanted to make a tragedy, they made a tragedy. Respectfully deal with it, or don't buy their games.

[JBONE27]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

The Razman wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

If someone want so target an ending where everybody dies and the galaxy goes to ****, then by all means, let them have that as one of the ending OPTIONS.

But the rest of us would like to have endings, OPTIONAL endings, wherein all of our efforts and all of our time and completion zeal doesn't result in being utterly meaningless.

Tragedy with an off-switch is utterly meaningless. That's what we've been saying.

You can't have your happy ending option without destroying the sad ending option. And Bioware chose to make a sad ending. Live with it.

No offense intended, but how does that even remotely make sense? The whole point of branching storylines is to lead to different end-states.

In no way does having an option for a "happy" ending preclude there being an option for a "sad" ending.

Sorry, but I had to include those few words.

[kbct]

The Razman wrote...

They wanted to make a tragedy, they made a tragedy. Respectfully deal with it, or don't buy their games.

It doesn't make business sense to limit the options. If they are gonna fix it, do it right. Give peole what they want.

Why do you even care? Just don't download the DLC.

[Subject M]

Heather Cline wrote...

No it's not. Look at DA:O they had different endings and there was a sad ending where the Warden died. Was it meaningless? No it wasn't. There were also a couple of other different endings were Alistair died, Loghain died, or no one died.

It didn't make any less of an impact on any of the endings in DA:O. So Razman your argument of having an off-switch makes tragedy meaningless has been disproven.

Razman might feel that way. So it might be true for him. But I agree, I found the DA:O. "sacrifice" ending very sad.

[The Razman]

Heather Cline wrote...

No it's not. Look at DA:O they had different endings and there was a sad ending where the Warden died. Was it meaningless? No it wasn't.

I repeat my opening challenge. Find me an article, somewhere mentioning the ending of Dragon Age: Origins having emotional impact, of being sad.

I can give you several articles on sad video-game endings, to show you they're out there. Just not for that game. Reason being that it didn't work on that level.

[JBONE27]

The Razman wrote...

kbct wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Tragedy with an off-switch is utterly meaningless. That's what we've been saying.

You can't have your happy ending option without destroying the sad ending option. And Bioware chose to make a sad ending. Live with it.

Then don't make it a tragedy.

They wanted to make a tragedy, they made a tragedy. Respectfully deal with it, or don't buy their games.

Are you one of the writers?  Because I've read that they wanted to make an epic space opera with a hopeful ending.  Tradgdies aren't hopeful for the most part.

Modifié par JBONE27, 30 mars 2012 - 10:57 .

[The Razman]

kbct wrote...

It doesn't make business sense to limit the options. If they are gonna fix it, do it right. Give peole what they want.

It doesn't make business sense to make games which aren't MMOs, FPS's or Facebook games if you're going to go down that route.

People moan about business decisions impacting on the creative process of gamemaking almost constantly. Why is it suddenly a good thing in this instance?

[kbct]

Subject M wrote...
I call BS on this. At least for this type of game and at least for myself. But I suspect I am not alone.

You're not alone at all! Razman is part of the 2% that liked the ending as-is. Everyone else wants it changed (to varying degrees). Yet here he is trying to keep people from getting what they want.