164 réponses à ce sujet

[RunCDFirst]

Red Viking wrote...

That article also mentions the "species problem" but, again, to be fair, if we're going to debate what exactly determines a species, we're going to be here all day.  I suppose we should just agree to disagree.

Yeah, that's why I said the most common definition is viability of offspring. But this should at least demonstrate the complexities of biological reproduction and why it's possible for there not to be any 'half-elves'.

[twincast]

To be frank, I believe they should've just explained it with elves' inherent magical properties instead of some pseudo-scientific recessive genes nonsense, which backfired spectacularly.

Besides, they are half-elves in all but name anyway. It's just that their children can never become full elves (with elf stats) again once "tainted".

[Kuravid]

Taleroth wrote...

This game needs more daytime soap drama, obviously.  And besides, what if the revelation turned him into Carth?  Or Kaiden?  Would you really want that?

I'd be more concerned about the lack of implementation of Gryphons.  And Capes.  And Horses.  And Barbarians.

Yes, god, half-elves are about as intriguing as stamp collecting. I'm more concerned about killing ****, awesome fantasy creatures and war, war, war. Alistair already cried enough about Duncan in this game---would you really want to hear him cry about his mother throughout the entirety of the next one?

Half elves...really. This is such a lame detail.

[Maedryc]

twincast wrote...

To be frank, I believe they should've just explained it with elves' inherent magical properties instead of some pseudo-scientific recessive genes nonsense, which backfired spectacularly.
Besides, they are half-elves in all but name anyway. It's just that their children can never become full elves (with elf stats) again once "tainted".

Yeah, but, on the other hand, elves don't actually exist. Neither do dragons or griffons, for that matter. Or even magic.
Not every fantasy author wastes much time explaining if a dragon evolved into a lizard or if lizards evolved into dragons, or how the hell a dragon can fly or breath fire. I find the notion that a creature can *breathe fire* strains the credibility of the world far more than a discussion about recessive genes, yet you don't see people discussing how dragons shouldn't be able to jump, let alone fly, or how dangerous a dragon suffering from flatulence is.
In LotR, elves are defined as "quasi-magical, immortal beings with pointy ears". In DA: O, they're described as "nonmagical, mortal beings with pointy ears whose child is only an elf if it's conceived with another elf".
Frankly, if you can accept the former, I don't see what's stopping you from accepting the latter.
In other words, "whatever the DM says, goes".

[Maedryc]

Double-.-

Modifié par Maedryc, 02 décembre 2009 - 07:54 .

[037686]

There is a significant amount of highly selective reasoning in this thread. I'm going to pick up a couple of points made.

Contention: human/elf pairings resulting in humans would result in human creep into the Alienage. Since we don't see that in game, clearly the offspring do not look human.

This is poor logic. We also do not see half elves, and encounter only Elven NPCs in our trip there. If we follow this reasoning through to it's conclusion, it gives us one of two possibilities:

1. Humans and Elves cannot interbreed.
2. The offspring of Humans/Elves are all Elven in appearance.

We know 1 is incorrect, since Zathrian's daughter is confirmed as having been raped by a human, and committed suicide when she found our she was pregnant. This would leave us with only 2 as an available option.  So we either accept the  statement from the writers that all of the offspring are human, or we substitute our own reality that they are all Elven. There is nothing in between, if you object on the basis of not seeing humans in the Alienage.

There could be any number of reasons that we do not see "humans" in the Alienage. The fact we don't know what happens to these babies does not invalidate the stance of the writer(s).

To illustrate how flimsy the "we don't see them" example is, we only see...what, 100 odd NPCs in the whole of Denirim?  Are we also to conclude that the CITY of Denirim only has a hundred of so inhabitants, purely because we don't see all of the others?


Contention: Alistair would have been bullied for his heritage if his mother was truly Elven.

This conclusion requires the assumption that people know who Alistair's mother really is, including Alistair himself. The fact is that the end of "The Calling", for those who cared to read it, clearly indicates to us the following (includes spoilers, so be advised in advance):

1. Maric and Fiona had a child.
2. Duncan and Fiona brought the child to Maric in the middle of night, without warning. Maric did not even know until that moment. No one else in Ferelden knows about the baby at this point.
3. Fiona specifically states that she does not want the baby to know his heritage, because she does not want him to know  what it is like to be an elf, and she does not want him to know the life of a Grey Warden. She wants more for him.
4. Duncan agrees to take the baby away and place him somewhere.

Seeing as no one aside from these three even knows that this baby exists, Duncan could place a human-looking baby anywhere he chose, and no one would be the wiser. Yes, we are told in game that Alistair's mother is a human woman from Redcliffe. This does not mean that this story is actually true, because we hear it from an NPC, not from an authoritative all-knowing narrator. This knowledge is what the character imparting the knowledge believes, and thus may be flawed (or even flat-out incorrect).

Given that no one else knows the baby's heritage, it would be a simple matter for Duncan to pull a bit of subterfuge and pass the baby off as belonging to a woman who died in childbirth, thus honouring Fiona's wish that the baby would never know the pain of having Elven heritage. This means that the truth died with Duncan, unless Fiona is still alive.

Since people would have a plausible story of where the baby came from, no one would ever think "wow, I wonder if this bastard baby of a woman who died in childbirth is actually a smuggled baby of Elven heritage who has a mother that never wished his true background known? I'd better check!" No one in their right mind would do that - they would accept things wholesale, and move on with their lives. And bear in mind that most thought that Goldanna's mother's baby died - that is even what Goldanna herself was told, thoug she says she never believed it. If anyone got suspicious about the baby, all they would like find is the fake cover that the baby died, when he is in fact alive. Lets face it, why would anyone care enough to investigate the fate of a peasant woman's bastard?

If you are faced with a situation where narrative lore and in-character lore collide, you can usually side with narrative lore, because characters (like real world people) can be wrong. Narrative lore contradicting narrative lore is where the major problems are.

[mousestalker]

For the OP: The progeny of an and a human winds up either being a forum troll on these forums here or baking cookies in a tree. Take your pick.

[RunCDFirst]

I don't understand the Alistair dilemma. Wasn't it specified that his mother was a human servant in the castle?



It's not like Kings don't sleep around with multiple people, or that it could be possible for there to be multiple bastards.

[Taleroth]

RunCDFirst wrote...

I don't understand the Alistair dilemma. Wasn't it specified that his mother was a human servant in the castle?

That's what he was told.  Bum bum buuuuuuuuum

[Spaceweed10]

Hizuka wrote...

It's explained in The Calling that the child of a human and an elf is always a human.

How do they explain their pointy ears away?

[Red Viking]

037686 wrote...

Seeing as no one aside from these three even knows that this baby exists, Duncan could place a human-looking baby anywhere he chose, and no one would be the wiser. Yes, we are told in game that Alistair's mother is a human woman from Redcliffe. This does not mean that this story is actually true, because we hear it from an NPC, not from an authoritative all-knowing narrator. This knowledge is what the character imparting the knowledge believes, and thus may be flawed (or even flat-out incorrect).

Given that no one else knows the baby's heritage, it would be a simple matter for Duncan to pull a bit of subterfuge and pass the baby off as belonging to a woman who died in childbirth, thus honouring Fiona's wish that the baby would never know the pain of having Elven heritage. This means that the truth died with Duncan, unless Fiona is still alive.

Since people would have a plausible story of where the baby came from, no one would ever think "wow, I wonder if this bastard baby of a woman who died in childbirth is actually a smuggled baby of Elven heritage who has a mother that never wished his true background known? I'd better check!" No one in their right mind would do that - they would accept things wholesale, and move on with their lives. And bear in mind that most thought that Goldanna's mother's baby died - that is even what Goldanna herself was told, thoug she says she never believed it. If anyone got suspicious about the baby, all they would like find is the fake cover that the baby died, when he is in fact alive. Lets face it, why would anyone care enough to investigate the fate of a peasant woman's bastard?

If you are faced with a situation where narrative lore and in-character lore collide, you can usually side with narrative lore, because characters (like real world people) can be wrong. Narrative lore contradicting narrative lore is where the major problems are.

But, at the same time, isn't that assuming facts not in evidence?  The game never addresses a potential elven heritage as far as Alistair is concerned and gives us a different story.

Furthermore, you do not need to read the books to understand the game and had Alistair been Fiona's son, The Calling pretty much would have been required reading.

Finally, why does that kid have to be Alistair.  For all we know it could've just been some random kid that we'll never hear about again.

Modifié par Red Viking, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:10 .

[Taleroth]

Red Viking wrote...

Furthermore, you do not need to read the books to understand the game and had Alistair been Fiona's son, The Calling pretty much would have been required reading.

Required reading for what?

Is Phantom Menace required watching to understand that C-3PO is kind of fruity?

[Vicious]

Wow I'm amazed that there are actually people crying about this. Guess they wanted to be an emo mistreated by all worlds half-elf?



On a serious note however, it's a good reason why Elves are slowly getting edged/dying out. The offspring takes on Human physical traits rather than Elven, so he gets treated well by Humans [who are more numerous and rule the world] while treated poorly by Elves [Looks like a shemlen is clearly not one of them]



Genetics are meaningless really, if a half-elf character is going to look and quack just like a human, then he might as well BE human. Even if there's some elven blood in there, there's NO WAY to tell so who cares? He'll get treated the same opportunites as any other human.



Just pretend that Elven traits [knife ears, being short, excellent at poverty and easily conquered] are the MOST RECESSIVE TRAITS EVER.





Frankly Im utterly baffled as to why people want half-elves to begin with. Could some kind person please explain it to me?

[Kepha]

Spaceweed10 wrote...

Hizuka wrote...

It's explained in The Calling that the child of a human and an elf is always a human.

How do they explain their pointy ears away?

The child of an elf and a human doesn't have pointy ears.  That's what makes them "human".

[RunCDFirst]

Taleroth wrote...

Red Viking wrote...

Furthermore, you do not need to read the books to understand the game and had Alistair been Fiona's son, The Calling pretty much would have been required reading.

Required reading for what?

Is Phantom Menace required watching to understand that C-3PO is kind of fruity?

I'm hoping the important information from the books filters into the games eventually.

[mscotch]

Taleroth wrote...

If it's built like a duck, looks like a duck, and breeds like a duck. I'm not sure it matters that it's mother was a swan.

 Darwin's most famous quote

Modifié par mscotch, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:14 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Angry One wrote...
It's inconsistant in that if half-elves were human, then we would see some "humans" in alienages by now.
I'm sorry but no attempt at isolationism will survive constant human intervention like that if all half-elves had NO elven features.

What makes you think human-elf coulping are coomon?

[Red Viking]

Taleroth wrote...

Red Viking wrote...

Furthermore, you do not need to read the books to understand the game and had Alistair been Fiona's son, The Calling pretty much would have been required reading.

Required reading for what?

Is Phantom Menace required watching to understand that C-3PO is kind of fruity?

That's a bad example and you know it.

[twincast]

Red Viking wrote...

Finally, why does that kid have to be Alistair.  For all we know it could've just been some random kid that we'll never hear about again.

Because Duncan said he'd watch over him and I don't believe he'd be keeping tabs on every child Maric ever fathered - not to mention that Maric doesn't seem the type to just sleep around like that.

Mind you, I may very well be wrong, but I seriously doubt it.

[Taleroth]

Red Viking wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Red Viking wrote...

Furthermore, you do not need to read the books to understand the game and had Alistair been Fiona's son, The Calling pretty much would have been required reading.

Required reading for what?

Is Phantom Menace required watching to understand that C-3PO is kind of fruity?

That's a bad example and you know it.

I don't know it.  The true identity of Alistair's mother is unimportant.  Just like it's unimportant that when C-3PO says "the maker" he's secretly worshipping Darth Vader.

In fact, the example may even be more important.  Fiona is not around.

Modifié par Taleroth, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:26 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Oh, one more thing - even if someone does suspect X is a half-elf, there really is no easy way to prove it, no? It looks like a human, talks like a human, acts like a human..

[twincast]

Kepha wrote...

Spaceweed10 wrote...

Hizuka wrote...

It's explained in The Calling that the child of a human and an elf is always a human.

How do they explain their pointy ears away?

The child of an elf and a human doesn't have pointy ears.  That's what makes them "human".

Word of God says they occasionally have slightly pointy ears. Actually, IIRC we even got a slang term for them on the bio-forums.

[VanDraegon]

The Angry One wrote...

David Gaider, despite the apparent views of some fanboys here, is not a god, and his books are not gospel.
The idea is inconsistant and illogical, and made up entirely to shoehorn Alistair into a specific origin.
To be brutally frank, subverting your own lore to squeeze in a particular plot point you decided later on is extremely lazy writing and something which, thankfully, I don't have to deal with in-game.

It is Bioware's world, they get to make the rules. Having a fit about it is silly. It is a fantasy setting after all, who is to say how inter species reproduction will turn out? The creators of the world, that is who. Personally, i think it is a good touch. Beats having a world half full of Tanis look a likes running around.

[Red Viking]

Taleroth wrote...

Red Viking wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Red Viking wrote...

Furthermore, you do not need to read the books to understand the game and had Alistair been Fiona's son, The Calling pretty much would have been required reading.

Required reading for what?

Is Phantom Menace required watching to understand that C-3PO is kind of fruity?

That's a bad example and you know it.

I don't know it.  The true identity of Alistair's mother is unimportant.  Just like it's unimportant that when C-3PO says "the maker" he's secretly worshipping Darth Vader.

In fact, the example may even be more important.  Fiona is not around.

It is important because people who have only played the game are given no reason to think otherwise.  Had the possibility of Alistair being Fiona's son existed; if you are absolutely certain that the link is there, don't you think the game would have mentioned this at some point?  The NPCs might be in the dark, but games usually provide the player certain insights regarding these things.   There is even a quest regarding Alistair family and the outcome can completely change his perspective on life and makes him reconsider what his duties to his country are.  And it doesn't involve any revelation of a mixed heritage.

Have you ever considered the possibility that 1.) It could have just been a red herring or 2.) that particular plot point doesn't concern Alistair and is being saved for a future game?

Modifié par Red Viking, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:41 .

[Setz69]

Kepha wrote...

The Angry One wrote...


I'd expect it to have happened as Alistair was growing up.
In other words, I'd expect Alistair to tell me. I can't believe I have to explain this; Alistair tells you everything about his early life, about the pains and prejudices he experienced, particularily how the other templar recruits looked down on him as a noble bastard... yet not one of them ever called him the son of a knife-ear, just to rile him up? Really?

Given that if Alistair is Fiona's child the only three people that probably knew that were Duncun, Maric, and Fiona.  I don't think even Arl Eamon would have known he was the son of an elf, so why would it come up?

This. You don't hear about Allistairs elf mother, because nobody that would tell you knows. As far as allistair believes, his mother was a mere 'human' hand maiden. His 'sister' is human, so why should he doubt that?

Im sure any elves raped by humans usually get abortions or kill themselves (ala zatherians daughter) and those that willfully have children with humans probably don't live in the alienage, as they would be alienated from elves AND humans alike. Others most likely send off their kids to orphanages at young ages (Seeing as they look human) or send them off to human friends like was done with Allistair.  The Daelish would never bred with humans as they look down on them with disgust and hatred. So really, you'd have few half-elves in the large places you goto. Im sure they're out there on a farm, or in a forest somewhere. Just not where you go.

No one would want their child growing up in the oppressive life of the elves, especially if they were going to be oppressed by the elves and the humans.

Edit: Im sure if you ask nicely, they'll release a DLC: Search for the Half-Bred's. You look for them for an hour, they give you some sweet loots, end credits roll.

Modifié par Setz69, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:40 .