164 réponses à ce sujet

[037686]

Red Viking wrote...

But, at the same time, isn't that assuming facts not in evidence?  The game never addresses a potential elven heritage as far as Alistair is concerned and gives us a different story.

Correct; it was merely a commentary on what might have happened. I don't mean to imply that it is necessarily the truth, but considering what we know, it is definitely possible (perhaps even likely). It isn't, however, the only possibility. I'm merely keeping an open mind, and I admit I consider it to be one of the more likely options.

Furthermore, you do not need to read the books to understand the game and had Alistair been Fiona's son, The Calling pretty much would have been required reading.

Hmm, I'd disagree with that. Understanding Alistair's true background isn't necessary to your enjoyment of the game.  We never have Morrigan's real family revealed to us, but that doesn't diminish her as a character. And let us not lose sight of the fact that this is the first game in a series - they need to go somewhere with the characters in later games, and revealing all the skeletons in a character's closet at once is a poor idea if you intend on taking them anywhere.

Consider Baldur's Gate - do you  feel that not reading all the Forgotten Realms background material impedes enjoying the game? Fully understanding who Elminster or Bhaal is (or exactly what happened in the Time of Troubles) is not integral to the plot. I believe a similar argument could be made here.

Finally, why does that kid have to be Alistair.  For all we know it could've just been some random kid that we'll never hear about again.

It most definitely could!

The only reason I brought it up was that there was an argument made stating that Alistair being of elven heritage would make no sense. I hope I have illustrated that it can fit, although it is by no means the only possible outcome.

[Taleroth]

Red Viking wrote...

It is important because people who have only played the game are given no reason to think otherwise.

  This doesn't make a lick of sense.  The lack of people knowing something doesn't suddenly raise its level of importance.  People don't the name of the queen or Orlais, either.  It doesn't mean she's relevant to the game.  I wonder if Andraste had a birthmark.  The game doesn't give you reason to remotely care, let alone place any importance on the matter.

Had the possibility of Alistair being Fiona's son existed; if you are absolutely certain that the link is there, don't you think the game would have mentioned this at some point?

No, because it's absolutely irrelevant to this game.  Just like Fiona existing.  She's not even mentioned in the game, this does not imply she never existed in the setting.

The NPCs might be in the dark, but games usually provide the player certain insights regarding these things.

Only if they're remotely important.  This is not. 

that particular plot point doesn't concern Alistair and is being saved for a future game?

  You're the one who seems to have trouble understanding this tidbit.  That's what defines it as completely unimportant to this game.

Modifié par Taleroth, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:43 .

[its_you]

Btw the angry one is right.

It's just bad writing and if you think it is not take a step back breath and look at it again.



on a side note a remember a game where a half elf had the option to look almost full human or full elf.

[syllogi]

Red Viking wrote...

Have you ever considered the possibility that 1.) It could have just been a red herring or 2.) that particular plot point doesn't concern Alistair and is being saved for a future game?

Both of those are very possible, but the significance of Alistair possibly being Fiona's child (OR that there is another Theirin bastard out there) lies in the fact that Fiona overcame, and is possibly immune to, the Taint.  So whomever her child is, IF they were a Grey Warden, might have the same immunity.  So for sequel purposes, this means:  if Alistair is alive, he could live longer than expected, or if there is another heir, they could be a contender for the throne or the key to a cure to the taint.

[Red Viking]

Taleroth wrote...

Red Viking wrote...

It is important because people who have only played the game are given no reason to think otherwise.

  This doesn't make a lick of sense.  The lack of people knowing something doesn't suddenly raise its level of importance.  People don't the name of the queen or Orlais, either.  It doesn't mean she's relevant to the game.  I wonder if Andraste had a birthmark.  The game doesn't give you reason to remotely care, let alone place any importance on the matter.

Had the possibility of Alistair being Fiona's son existed; if you are absolutely certain that the link is there, don't you think the game would have mentioned this at some point?

No, because it's absolutely irrelevant to this game.  Just like Fiona existing.  She's not even mentioned in the game, this does not imply she never existed in the setting.

The NPCs might be in the dark, but games usually provide the player certain insights regarding these things.

Only if they're remotely important.  This is not. 

that particular plot point doesn't concern Alistair and is being saved for a future game?

  You're the one who seems to have trouble understanding this tidbit.  That's what defines it as completely unimportant to this game.

At this point, I'm starting to wonder if we're arguing similar things from two different points of view.  I'm trying to say that Alistair isn't Fiona's son because it's never mentioned in the game and the game (or at least this one) and the book are seperate.  You're arguing that it's not important at all, correct?

Are we on the same page here?

Modifié par Red Viking, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:57 .

[Vormaerin]

There is nothing illogical about the proposition that elf + human = human. We don't have any examples of that in the real world, but there are factors in Thedas that aren't present on Earth.

You are assuming that "elf" is a different species genetically. That may be true, but it may not. Elves are clearly subject to a supernatural phenomenon. Their lifespan wanes simply by being near humans, completely aside from the fact that they are more likely to get killed by violence or disease. That's unprecedented in our world. They can also create non sterile cross breeds, so the genetics aren't much different. It is therefore entirely possible that "elf" is a magical condition of "human" and the spell breaks down by contact with humans. There's no closer contact than parentage..

All the arguments about how their should be an human underclass in the Alienage overlook the fact that we meet a tiny fraction of the residents of the Alienage. There may well be such inhabitants and we didn't meet them in the story. Also, the Arl's son grabbing some girls for a party is not the same thing as widespread rapine going on. I'd say from the surprise and reaction of the elf community that its not commonplace. If the girls got snatched and raped regularly, they wouldn't be staying out on the streets when human men came through.  Also, no one is required to live in the alienage, so human children born there could just move to other slums or whatever neighborhood they could afford.   So can an elf, but there tends to be increased risk of violence as result, so few do.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 02 décembre 2009 - 09:20 .

[Taleroth]

Red Viking wrote...

At this point, I'm starting to wonder if we're arguing similar things from two different points of view.  I'm trying to say that Alistair isn't Fiona's son because it's never mentioned in the game and the game (or at least this one) and the book are seperate.  You're arguing that it's not important at all, correct?

Are we on the same page here?

My argument is twofold.
1) The truth of Alistair's mother is unimportant, especially in the context of the game.
2) The lack of confirmation that Fiona is Alistair's mother within the game is not confirmation that she isn't, namely due to 1.

[marshalleck]

its_you wrote...

Btw the angry one is right.
It's just bad writing and if you think it is not take a step back breath and look at it again.

Well what a convincing argument you've made. Alright guys, this thread is finished, shut it down.

[Findarin]

I'd expect it to have happened as Alistair was growing up.
In other words, I'd expect Alistair to tell me. I can't believe I have to explain this; Alistair tells you everything about his early life, about the pains and prejudices he experienced, particularily how the other templar recruits looked down on him as a noble bastard... yet not one of them ever called him the son of a knife-ear, just to rile him up? Really?

Um because everyone thinks that Alistair's mother was a human maid.  The only place that it reveals that his mother was an elf is I believe in the calling.

Also, there are plenty of species that when they interbred in the real world the offspring is always one or the other if they are compatable.

Now lets look at some other things.  Elves in the alienages don't particularly care for humans, so therefore it makes sense that if the child was raised by the elves, it would probably leave early on due to being ostracized.

Also, while it does happen, it happens rarely.  It isn't like everytime the humans and elves get together they produce offspring.  I believe the lore states that it "happens rarely, but the child is always human."

And yes, as has been stated, lore wise, it is pretty much Gaider's world and we just live in it.

[The Angry One]

Kepha wrote...

The Angry One wrote...


I'd expect it to have happened as Alistair was growing up.
In
other words, I'd expect Alistair to tell me. I can't believe I have to
explain this; Alistair tells you everything about his early life, about
the pains and prejudices he experienced, particularily how the other
templar recruits looked down on him as a noble bastard... yet not one
of them ever called him the son of a knife-ear, just to rile him
up? Really?

Given that if Alistair is Fiona's child
the only three people that probably knew that were Duncun, Maric, and
Fiona.  I don't think even Arl Eamon would have known he was the son of
an elf, so why would it come up?

You misunderstand, Alistair wouldn't know that.
However
in a society where human/elf interbreeding produces humans, human
bastards would often be accused of being the child of a "knife-ear" if
for no other reason than to insult them and Alistair would surely have
been the target of such attacks.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
It's inconsistant in that if half-elves were human, then we would see some "humans" in alienages by now.
I'm sorry but no attempt at isolationism will survive constant human intervention like that if all half-elves had NO elven features.

What makes you think human-elf coulping are coomon?

Did you even play the city elf origin?

[Setz69]

The Angry One wrote...

You misunderstand, Alistair wouldn't know that.
However
in a society where human/elf interbreeding produces humans, human
bastards would often be accused of being the child of a "knife-ear" if
for no other reason than to insult them and Alistair would surely have
been the target of such attacks.

Who would have taunted Alistair with this though? The only ones who knew were Duncan (Deceased), Meric (Deceased), and Fiona (Havent read the books not sure of her vital status) and possibly Arl Eamon. So for starters there isn't really anyone left to TELL Alistair his mother was an elf. And which of these people would want to hurt Alistair? I don't understand where your assuming everyone knows Alistairs mother is an elf, when even he does not.

No one knew of Alistairs mother aside from his father/mentors and none of them told him. None of them would want to hurt him, and therefore would have no reason for taunting him as a child of a "knife-ear".

Im sure there are racist people in Thedas that would taunt a half-elf but we don't meet any in our travels. I agree it would be nice to have met some half-elfs but I doubt they would stick around in denerim to recieve that kind of treatment.

Modifié par Setz69, 02 décembre 2009 - 11:10 .

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

Did you even play the city elf origin?

I wouldn't draw any conclusions from the player's origin regarding frequency of such events. If you start going this route, then apparently it's also common and happens everyday for human nobles to murder one another's entire families, or for Dalish elves to become tainted, etc.

For this matter, the very fact how unprepared the elves in your origin are to handle these events could be used to deduce it's not something very common.

[Ulicus]

Vormaerin wrote...

There is nothing illogical about the proposition that elf + human = human. We don't have any examples of that in the real world, but there are factors in Thedas that aren't present on Earth.

You are assuming that "elf" is a different species genetically. That may be true, but it may not. Elves are clearly subject to a supernatural phenomenon. Their lifespan wanes simply by being near humans, completely aside from the fact that they are more likely to get killed by violence or disease. That's unprecedented in our world. They can also create non sterile cross breeds, so the genetics aren't much different. It is therefore entirely possible that "elf" is a magical condition of "human" and the spell breaks down by contact with humans. There's no closer contact than parentage..

All the arguments about how their should be an human underclass in the Alienage overlook the fact that we meet a tiny fraction of the residents of the Alienage. There may well be such inhabitants and we didn't meet them in the story. Also, the Arl's son grabbing some girls for a party is not the same thing as widespread rapine going on. I'd say from the surprise and reaction of the elf community that its not commonplace. If the girls got snatched and raped regularly, they wouldn't be staying out on the streets when human men came through.  Also, no one is required to live in the alienage, so human children born there could just move to other slums or whatever neighborhood they could afford.   So can an elf, but there tends to be increased risk of violence as result, so few do.

Great post. Not that you need me to tell you that.

[Nighteye2]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

I don't ever remember there being a topic about this, and its been something, allbeit very small thing, that has been bugging me in this game.

If you play a city elf, or any kind of male elf that goes through the Dark Ritual with Morrigan, you learn that sex and pregnancy between the two races does happen. So chances are there should be at least 1-2 likely very reviled half-elves running around with some very shunned parents, but I've never come across anything in the codex addressing this.

Does it get addressed in this game? Has anyone else wondered about this?

As the devs have said, elven genes are adaptive. They change to resemble the human genes, when a human and an elf have a child. At most, the child can be born "elf-blooded", meaning he is human but has a few elven features, like slightly pointy ears.

[Heldenbrand]

Technically speaking I don't like the idea that they can produce children at all. With that in mind however, half-elves would not be very apparent. More often than not I don't know if the NPC I'm talking to is even an elf or not as even a little long hair can hide the ears and the rest of their features appear notably human.



If, those pointed ears were a genetic trait that simply didn't click in mixed relationships, how would anyone know if the child were half-elf or simply human? They don't have genetic tests and if the only feature that would distinguish an elf child from a human child how could anyone suppose that there is such a thing as a 'half elf'?



This is all supposing upon something that might exist to explain it further in the books or codices I haven't seen yet. As in, is there some other physical characteristic (beyond build/height that could simply be passed off as a 'weak' child) in an elf that would distinguish them from a human?

[Maria Caliban]

twincast wrote...

... not to mention that Maric doesn't seem the type to just sleep around like that.

The plot of the first book is basically "Maric can't keep his junk in his pants when a pretty girl is nearby. Oh, and there's a war."

[Jankum]

I think all The Angry One is trying to say, is that based on how the rest of the world is constructed, it is unlikely that even the idea of a half-elf wouldn't be addressed, even if they are human.



The argument is really simple: based on everything else, it's hard to imagine that this sub-class isn't addressed by anyone in this game, especially because of that whole Alistair thing (assuming you think the books and the game should be consistent with each other, which is a different discussion all together).



And it's true, considering how elves are treated by humans, a human born from an elf-human union would probably have a hard time, unless he managed to keep that fact a secret...which is unlikely.



It's true, the writer can write whatever he wants, that's his right. Whether or not what is written is convincing is our right to decide. And I'm sorry, but simply comparing this to magic and dragons and saying "it's a fantasy, take it for granted" is not a valid argument. Even in a fantasy, things must make sense. Magic doesn't have to make sense, so it doesn't need explanation. How elven DNA works doesn't need to make sense either. How people treat others is not magic, and, in a game that explores interaction so much, this issue should have been handled in a more convincing fashion. Saying "they look human, so everyone treats them as humans" really is just lazy and is really against human nature, and in this case, not just 'human' nature either.

[RunCDFirst]

Jankum wrote...

I think all The Angry One is trying to say, is that based on how the rest of the world is constructed, it is unlikely that even the idea of a half-elf wouldn't be addressed, even if they are human.

The argument is really simple: based on everything else, it's hard to imagine that this sub-class isn't addressed by anyone in this game, especially because of that whole Alistair thing (assuming you think the books and the game should be consistent with each other, which is a different discussion all together).

And it's true, considering how elves are treated by humans, a human born from an elf-human union would probably have a hard time, unless he managed to keep that fact a secret...which is unlikely.

It's true, the writer can write whatever he wants, that's his right. Whether or not what is written is convincing is our right to decide. And I'm sorry, but simply comparing this to magic and dragons and saying "it's a fantasy, take it for granted" is not a valid argument. Even in a fantasy, things must make sense. Magic doesn't have to make sense, so it doesn't need explanation. How elven DNA works doesn't need to make sense either. How people treat others is not magic, and, in a game that explores interaction so much, this issue should have been handled in a more convincing fashion. Saying "they look human, so everyone treats them as humans" really is just lazy and is really against human nature, and in this case, not just 'human' nature either.

Maybe children's aid sweeps through the Alienage on a regular basis looking for non pointy ears. It could be like Orzammar, so long as one of your parents ain't all sickly and malnourished, you get a free ride up the social ladder.

[Jankum]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Maybe children's aid sweeps through the Alienage on a regular basis looking for non pointy ears. It could be like Orzammar, so long as one of your parents ain't all sickly and malnourished, you get a free ride up the social ladder.

Maybe. I wish instead of children's aid, it was children AIDS, but none of this is talked about...and that's the whole point. They don't address the issue.

[Asante81]

037686 wrote...

And bear in mind that most thought that Goldanna's mother's baby died - that is even what Goldanna herself was told, thoug she says she never believed it.

Does anyone else remember Goldanna yelling around that she knew the baby's father was the king and that they paid her money and sent her away to make her shut up? So that was... another bastard of Maric then, who died and got replaced by Alistair?

[Asante81]

eh? oops... doublepost...

Modifié par Asante81, 03 décembre 2009 - 04:17 .

[twincast]

Maria Caliban wrote...

twincast wrote...

... not to mention that Maric doesn't seem the type to just sleep around like that.

The plot of the first book is basically "Maric can't keep his junk in his pants when a pretty girl is nearby. Oh, and there's a war."

I fail to remember him sleeping with anyone he didn't have feelings for. My statement has absolutely nothing to do with where the focus of the book lies

[twincast]

Nighteye2 wrote...

As the devs have said, elven genes are adaptive. They change to resemble the human genes, when a human and an elf have a child. At most, the child can be born "elf-blooded", meaning he is human but has a few elven features, like slightly pointy ears.

Oh, right, that was the well-intentioned, but backfiring term, not the all too normal sounding recessive. (Re: My first post in this thread.)

[wcholcombe]

No, I don't think it is reasonable to expect people to go around accusing others of being half elves just because they are bastards. There are still limits to how far people can go in a society.



As for Allistair. Bastard or not, he is still the bastard of one of the most powerful and popular nobles in Ferelden(to most everyone's knowledge). To accuse him of being a knife ear, would in fact mean accusing Earl Eamon of being "low" enough to sleep with an elf.



Even if it was common knowledge that he was the son of Maric, this would make it even more unlikely. No one is going to go around claiming Maric "the hero of Ferelden" slept with a lowly elf.



Ya'll are seriously missing the repercusions that could arise from such a claim or accusation in Ferelden society.



Again, I don't think it is even a common enough occurrence for most people to be aware that interbreeding can actually occur.

[Erik Mcvay]

If you all dont like the writing dont play the game, i dont get why you complain and still play, makes sense to me