164 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

Erik Mcvay wrote...

If you all dont like the writing dont play the game, i dont get why you complain and still play, makes sense to me

Obviously we play games exclusively for the writing.

[Imryll]

Well, Fiona asked that the child be brought up as human without knowing about his elven heritage. My guess is that a Redcliffe serving woman died in childbirth at about the time Fiona bore Alastair, and that it was convenient to characterize the dead woman as Alastair's mother. Her actual baby may have died as well. Goldanna would have been a small child at the time. It's unlikely that she would have understood the details of the situation.



Also, if the point of the Alienages was to maintain the elven heritage, it seems likely that mothers of human children would have been made unwelcome. We don't see such children in the Denerim Alienage because they and their mothers would have been driven off.

[Erik Mcvay]

Taleroth wrote...

Erik Mcvay wrote...

If you all dont like the writing dont play the game, i dont get why you complain and still play, makes sense to me

Obviously we play games exclusively for the writing.

Im sorry, stupid of me to assume we all have something better to do than complain about the writing and insult the devs constantly on their forums, how foolish of me.

[Taleroth]

Erik Mcvay wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Erik Mcvay wrote...

If you all dont like the writing dont play the game, i dont get why you complain and still play, makes sense to me

Obviously we play games exclusively for the writing.

Im sorry, stupid of me to assume we all have something better to do than complain about the writing and insult the devs constantly on their forums, how foolish of me.

Obviously you have better things to do than complain that people who dislike the writing shouldn't play the game.

[starwind99]

Hey perhaps the only real feature between elves and humans are the ears and the elven ear shape is a recessive trait and human ear a dominant trait. If you do not understand that recessive means it requires two genes that are the same to produce the trait and dominant only requires one to produce the trait. Example humans would carry the B,B, ear trait elves would carry the a,a, trait for ears a half elf would have B,a, ears. Now this begs the question if a half elf and an elf were to produce an offspring they would have a 50% chance that this offspring would have elven ears. With the half elf having B,a, ears and the elf having a,a, ears with the offspring getting one gene (at random) from each parent they could have either B,a, ears or a,a, ears.

Modifié par starwind99, 03 décembre 2009 - 08:15 .

[Erik Mcvay]

Taleroth wrote...

Erik Mcvay wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Erik Mcvay wrote...

If you all dont like the writing dont play the game, i dont get why you complain and still play, makes sense to me

Obviously we play games exclusively for the writing.

Im sorry, stupid of me to assume we all have something better to do than complain about the writing and insult the devs constantly on their forums, how foolish of me.

Obviously you have better things to do than complain that people who dislike the writing shouldn't play the game.

Not at all wise person who knows everything

[Jankum]

wcholcombe wrote...

No, I don't think it is reasonable to expect people to go around accusing others of being half elves just because they are bastards. There are still limits to how far people can go in a society.

Oh yea? Limits? Blacks in America, throughout its history. That's just one example.

wcholcombe wrote...

As for Allistair. Bastard or not, he is still the bastard of one of the most powerful and popular nobles in Ferelden(to most everyone's knowledge). To accuse him of being a knife ear, would in fact mean accusing Earl Eamon of being "low" enough to sleep with an elf.

Even if it was common knowledge that he was the son of Maric, this would make it even more unlikely. No one is going to go around claiming Maric "the hero of Ferelden" slept with a lowly elf.

Ya'll are seriously missing the repercusions that could arise from such a claim or accusation in Ferelden society.

Again, I don't think it is even a common enough occurrence for most people to be aware that interbreeding can actually occur.

It's common enough that when those douchey nobles come to take the bride and some of her maids, all the elves do is say "Nothing to see here! Act natural!"


But really, you're missing the whole point. You're giving reasons/making excuses for things the writers left out. All these things could be true, the point is, they just don't address it and leave it up to us to figure out. Which, in itself is good or bad, depending on who you ask.

[RunCDFirst]

Jankum wrote...
But really, you're missing the whole point. You're giving reasons/making excuses for things the writers left out. All these things could be true, the point is, they just don't address it and leave it up to us to figure out. Which, in itself is good or bad, depending on who you ask.

BioWare, there's not enough detail on the mating habits of nugs! How could you leave us hanging?!

Maybe they're holding onto that information for a sequel? Maybe it's like the dwarves caste system and everyone accepts that elf+human=child that does not excel at poverty?

Though, if the elf gene is 'adaptive', I'm not sure that Fereldan science would be advanced enough to explain it.

I'm going to go with them not solving the half-elf issue is good, since it's not really relevant to stopping a Blight.

[Valmy]

The reason elves work so hard to isolate themselves is because contact with humans makes them more human, the quickening and all that, and if they breed with humans their children will lose their elvishness entirely. That makes as much sense as in Tolkein where an elf lost their elfness simply by MARRYING a human. If that seems illogical to you...well you do not even know the mechanism for it because we don't know it yet but it seems entirely consistent and logical to me.



Otherwise why would the city elves have arranged marriages and keep humans out, why would the Dalish isolate themselves? They know contact with humans will destroy them as a race.

[Valmy]

RunCDFirst wrote...
Though, if the elf gene is 'adaptive', I'm not sure that Fereldan science would be advanced enough to explain it.

Elf blood is magical somehow and once made them immortal.  I mean it makes no sense from a science perspective that a race that was, supposedly, ageless would suddenly cease to be so.

But blood has all sorts of magical qualities in this game.  Projecting modern science on it is ridiculous.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Jankum wrote...
Oh yea? Limits? Blacks in America, throughout its history. That's just one example.

I was in NAM, man! We were kids! KIDS!

[Jankum]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Jankum wrote...
Oh yea? Limits? Blacks in America, throughout its history. That's just one example.

I was in NAM, man! We were kids! KIDS!

hahaha

[Vicious]

Who would have taunted Alistair with this though? The only ones who knew were Duncan (Deceased), Meric (Deceased), and Fiona (Havent read the books not sure of her vital status) and possibly Arl Eamon

LOGHAIN knows about Alistair as well and knew all along from talking with him.

Again no indication that Alistair's mom was an elf.

[RunCDFirst]

Valmy wrote...
Elf blood is magical somehow and once made them immortal.  I mean it makes no sense from a science perspective that a race that was, supposedly, ageless would suddenly cease to be so.

But blood has all sorts of magical qualities in this game.  Projecting modern science on it is ridiculous.

Who says they were immortal?

Oh right, the elves.

[syllogi]

Vicious wrote...

Who would have taunted Alistair with this though? The only ones who knew were Duncan (Deceased), Meric (Deceased), and Fiona (Havent read the books not sure of her vital status) and possibly Arl Eamon

LOGHAIN knows about Alistair as well and knew all along from talking with him.

Again no indication that Alistair's mom was an elf.

Maric and Loghain were estranged while Rowan was alive and after Maric was made king.  They didn't talk, didn't hang out.  Even after Rowan died and they reconciled, I sincerely doubt Maric would have talked to Loghain about how he cheated on her and had a bastard.  Whatever he knows, is probably gossip.

Whoever Fiona's child is, the only ones who knew about it were indeed Maric, Fiona, and Duncan.

[TuringPoint]

I think the human children are taken from the alienage, put in homes or orphanages near the alienage, etc. for the most part.

I definitely get the impression that elven traits are more than just ears, and even ears are a complex trait. I just think of it as a world with not quite the same physics as ours, but still very similar. Roughly speaking, the elven race propagates only through the meeting of two elves.

What's all this recessive gene stuff? It really doesn't sound like, in how the game describes it, the elf and human "genetics" work like anything we work with or talk about in science class. Why should it? If you can't just take it for what it is, thinking about it will certainly not leader anywhere, just endless circles. But some people are entertained by chasing their tales I suppose.

Loghain has eyes and ears everywhere, which only accounts for rumor because Maric would be cautious - but I think Loghain would be assuming and cynical enough to figure it out.

Modifié par Alocormin, 04 décembre 2009 - 01:39 .

[RazorNightngale]

I just have to say this...

If you do the math, it is highly unlikely that Alistair is Fiona's baby.  The Calling takes place eleven years after the Orlesians are kicked out of Ferelden.  So boys and girls what is 30-11?  A NINETEEN year old!  And if you figure in that a woman carries a baby for nine months there is a good chance that the baby is only actually 18.

Now Alistair is immature, naive, and a virgin.  But he is older than that, I would say at least 23 or 24.  That's why being a virgin is brought up when you talk to Alistair, it's funny that he is an adult who has never got any.  Not as funny if he's a kid.  

Also if he was just switched with a random baby  at Redcliff, how would Goldanna have known that he was the king's baby?  Did they say "Oh, while we chuck your dead baby brother into the lake can you hold THE KING'S baby that we're going to say is actually your mom's kid.  Sorry that she died and everything." 

And the whole being hidden away from Rowan thing?  I'm sure that even Alistair could figure out that if she had been dead two years, that he didn't need to be hidden away FROM her.  Or did  Eamon think it would be funny to burst in Alistair's room in the middle of the night dressed in a old sheet saying, "Oooooooo, I am the ghost of Rowan!  You must staaaay hidden! Ooooo!"

I'm not going to say that it is 100% confirmed that Alistair is or isn't Fiona's baby.  Only Devs can do that, and so far they are staying mum on the issue.  But I'm pretty sure that there is more evidence against it than for it. 

Modifié par RazorNightngale, 04 décembre 2009 - 03:08 .

[TuringPoint]

I could totally imagine Eamon dressing in a ghost costume and going, "Oooo." Uh, not much else to say really. Move along.

I never thought it was a given that Alistair was Fiona's baby.

Modifié par Alocormin, 04 décembre 2009 - 02:02 .

[nuculerman]

 they didn't make half elves because then no one would play another race.  Let's face it, half-elves have been awesome since Tolkien made Elrond a half-elf.

But in all seriousness, the claim that it "doesn't make sense" within the reality of modern genetics is hilarious.  Yes, because humans and elves having a connection to a dream world called the fade from which they can draw magical power from supernatural beings is completely logical within the construct of our own reality.  Are you guys serious?  When elves and humans mate in the DA:O world, humans are born.  Given what we know about recessive genes, that makes more rational sense to me than magic; but wtf do I know.  

I mean, take a blue eyed man and a brown eyed woman and have them have children.  Assuming the brown eyed woman got two dominant genes from his parents, the chances of the child having blue eyes is... zero (theoretically).  Of course, eye color is more complicated than just dominant and recessive genes, but you get the idea.  It's established over and over again and implied 1000 times that elves are genetically weaker than humans in DA:O.  You don't have to like it, but that's the lore, so you're stuck with it.

Modifié par nuculerman, 04 décembre 2009 - 02:33 .

[Dark83]

You mean Agent Elf? He was fairly badass in the movie, kind of a bit player in the trilogy, though.

Modifié par Dark83, 04 décembre 2009 - 02:57 .

[Leonia]

Red Viking wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Red Viking wrote...

Not...really.  Since they can all interbreed, they most likely all belong in the same Genus, but they're hardly the same species.

I'm not aware of any requirement of breeding being involved in Genus definition.  However, the ability to regularly produce fertile offspring can be part of the species definition.

I said "most likely" because lions and tigers can interbreed and they belong in the same Genus.  As do horses and donkeys.

You insinuated that humans, elves and dwarves were the same species, which isn't exactly true.  To be fair, however, I think he meant to say subspecies.

RunCDFirst wrote...

Well, I don't want to split hairs but... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

That article also mentions the "species problem" but, again, to be fair, if we're going to debate what exactly determines a species, we're going to be here all day.  I suppose we should just agree to disagree.

Well, the way I see it, dwarves, humans, and elves are RACES, not species. They are all part of the same species but different races of it. Now, this gets into tricky waters, since the concept of race in humans has been debunked by science so it is pretty hard to define what a race is.

Regardless, they are all capable of producing offspring with each other so they must be of the same species. After 4 years of studying biology, that just makes the most sense to me, personally. The pointy ears (elves) or the short stature (dwarves) is no different than the darker skin or different skull shapes of humans in our real world that come from different geographical locations.

Anyyyywaay, a few people have said it, but I'll say it again, regardless if they come out with elf features or human features, it's all magical and this is a fantasy setting. We can question that all day and night if we like but ultimately we've already been given the answer:

Human + Elf = Human.

And seeing as neither the human or the elf in question is of a different species, this makes some sort of sense. Based on comments from the Dalish, it makes sense that elves that interact with humans will have shorter life-spans (or at least their children will) so essentially their "elven-human" child is now human because they have lost the defining feature of being Elven.

It's like, if an Asian guy and European girl hook up, what is their baby going to be? Half-Asian? Half-Euro? Something entirely new? It's still human, at the end of the day.

But here I go again trying to use real-life examples for a fantasy game in a pretend setting. Are we really getting so upet about something that isn't real here? The sort of arguments going on in this thread are just..wow, very surprising.

Modifié par leonia42, 04 décembre 2009 - 03:18 .

[kevinwastaken]

what are elves anyway? I mean what is their evolutionary origin?



Maybe there is no evolution in Thedas. Creationists FTW!

[Inakhia]

I'm happy if they keep the half-elves out of this. That path leads to far too much wangst and woe and really really really bad fan fic!
Hmmm, Theory on elves versus human origin..Off the top of my head and without going back and checking the timelines.
Wolf trickster god imprisons the gods away from the Elves...this perhaps leads to some elves being born ...differently. These children usually end up leaving their parents and disappearing into the wilds to seek out others like themselves, unable or unwilling to stay around the immortal unchanging elves while they age and die. They eventually band together and have children of their own, in larger and larger numbers. As the generations pass they start to forget they once came from elves. The elves themselves, choose to forget they had those children in the first place.
Eventually the children are a race unto themselves, bands and tribes of humans scattered around the edges of the elven lands until the Tevinter imperium arises out of it.
Without really researching it, I've no idea if this really holds water. but interesting ideas.

Edit: NM was obviously just repeating thoughts in the other thread I didn't realise I had read....<_<

Modifié par Inakhia, 04 décembre 2009 - 04:02 .

[tmp7704]

A relevant dev quote (http://social.biowar...332348/6#370528)

Qundalon is Qunari, yes. As for why there's no mention, we simply don't talk about every single thing in the game, especially when it's unrelated to the plot at hand. There are elf-blooded humans, for instance, but do we mention that in the game. Does that mean they don't exist in the world? Certainly not. They are spears and horses, but you don't see them in the game. Does that mean they don't exist in the world? Certainly not.

Horses. in. Ferelden. And spears! The mind boggles.

[RazorNightngale]

tmp7704 wrote...

A relevant dev quote (http://social.biowar...332348/6#370528)

Qundalon is Qunari, yes. As for why there's no mention, we simply don't talk about every single thing in the game, especially when it's unrelated to the plot at hand. There are elf-blooded humans, for instance, but do we mention that in the game. Does that mean they don't exist in the world? Certainly not. They are spears and horses, but you don't see them in the game. Does that mean they don't exist in the world? Certainly not.

Horses. in. Ferelden. And spears! The mind boggles.

And cloaks!  Some even have hoods!