229 réponses à ce sujet

[Salyut]

Supersomething wrote...

Ya I wasn't very happy with Woo's snarky reply myself.  The reason we summed it up as RGB in the first place is because thats all it consisted of.  Oh wait, I guess there were slight variations to RGB in each respective ending.  Its actually 3 possible red variations, 2 possible blue variations, and 1 possible green variation.... how could we have been so blind to such amazing artistic story telling.  How could we have missed such a drastic and glaring difference between those six endings!? 

Source for the ending variation:
www.youtube.com/watch

And thats it for my own snarky reply.

I know, right. We're not really over-simplifying by calling the endings RGB. Sure, theoretically the 3 choices in the end should have a profound effect on the future of the galaxy (if what the Star Child tells us is true). The problem is just that we're not shown any of these effects, so as far as the audience is concerned the only difference is what colour explosion you get.
It's like BioWare forgot one of the basic tenets of any story-telling medium: Show, Don't Tell.

[Corrik Ronis]

dreman9999 wrote...

It's like all of bsn community ignored everything in the game but the ending.
Yes, the ending is bad but what about the rest of the game. Get over yourselves people.

The rest of the game is riddled with error, flaws, and issues so you are out on that count. Also, despite the popular saying the journey is not the only thing that matters.

Hold the line.

Modifié par Corrik Ronis, 30 mars 2012 - 01:28 .

[nopantsisabela]

You know, it's a little snarky on both sides. But I'd like to give BioWare the benefit of the doubt here and agree with others who've said that it's exhausting to deal with less than polite fans. I think if we'd read the whole conversation we'd find that Mr. Woo was probably being pestered a bit.

I'm really sad about the ending too. I wanted to like it, but I just felt like I didn't have much closure for the story details or the characters/relationships. But I agree with what Mr. Woo said about the RGB being an oversimplification. Yeah, there were colors that led to the similar cutscenes, but there was obviously meaning behind those colors and scenes that was VERY different. If we want our criticism to be taken seriously then I feel like we need to be a little bit more discriminating in our complaints.

[Shepard Wins]

Wow, a man is gone from the board for 2 hours and 5 pages come to life.

All right, first of all, it was never my intention to personally attack or insult anyone at BioWare. I do not think my OP does that. Do I bash anyone personally? Sure, I may have been a a little harsh, but I think I've chosen my words carefully. Read the OP. Is it bashing anyone? Is it being disrespecful? Come on.

Secondly, what's this "entitled" thing I keep hearing? From what I've gathered people who generally have liked the endings call those who did not "entitled" or "entitled whiners". While I understand the meaning of the term "whiner", I don't think I understand "entitled"? It means to have a right to something or to be called something. How is it relevant to the situation?

And finally, I really just want someone at BioWare to see the VIDEOS I've linked in the OP. Especially the first one. It's a very calm, polite and desicive at the same time criticism of the endings, which pinpoints almost everything that bothers people so much about them. In fact, I'm providing "feedback", this mythical thing ME Twitter loves to ask for.

Modifié par Shepard Wins, 30 mars 2012 - 01:31 .

[Icesong]

dreman9999 wrote...

It's like all of bsn community ignored everything in the game but the ending.
Yes, the ending is bad but what about the rest of the game. Get over yourselves people.

If a book has a bad ending I'm not going reread it. Get inside yourself to understand this concept. I got chills like fifty times on the way to the ending, but it truly means nothing after the ending.

[PotterGaz]

Shepard Wins wrote...

Do I bash anyone personally? Sure.... Read the OP. Is it bashing anyone? Come on.

Did I bash someone. Yes. Did I bash someone. No. lol eh?

Shepard Wins wrote...

Secondly, what's this "entitled" thing I keep hearing? From what I've gathered people who generally have liked the endings call those who did not "entitled" or "entitled whiners". While I understand the meaning of the term "whiner", I don't think I understand "entitled"? It means to have a right to something or to be called something. How is it relevant to the situation?

I believe it means something along the lines of the person strongly believing they are entitled to get their own way and demand an altered ending from Bioware - in the context of this months squabbles at least.

Modifié par PotterGaz, 30 mars 2012 - 01:36 .

[Icesong]

PotterGaz wrote...


lol wha?

The part you cutoff gives the necessary context.

[Rawgrim]

Woo probably just had a bad day. Nothing more

[Shepard Wins]

PotterGaz wrote...

Shepard Wins wrote...

Do I bash anyone personally? Sure.... Read the OP. Is it bashing anyone? Come on.

Did I bash someone. Yes. Did I bash someone. No. lol eh?

Shepard Wins wrote...

Secondly, what's this "entitled" thing I keep hearing? From what I've gathered people who generally have liked the endings call those who did not "entitled" or "entitled whiners". While I understand the meaning of the term "whiner", I don't think I understand "entitled"? It means to have a right to something or to be called something. How is it relevant to the situation?

I believe it means something along the lines of the person strongly believing they are entitled to get their own way and demand an altered ending from Bioware - in the context of this months squabbles at least.

Well I'm entitled to my opinion. Don't know nothing about a new ending. Also, not sure what you meant about bashing.

[WizenSlinky0]

I would avoid using other people's video's to make your point when otherwise possible. I consider it lazy. Even though you may agree with the general idea of it...the fact remains how, and why, you got to that point is more important and completely independent of the videos explanation or what have you.

You have unique opinions (I assume) so use them. Telling Bioware to "watch this other guys opinion and consider it my own" is not productive. Even with agreements there can be subtle differences that are important. How you give your opinion can be important.

[nopantsisabela]

Icesong wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's like all of bsn community ignored everything in the game but the ending.
Yes, the ending is bad but what about the rest of the game. Get over yourselves people.

If a book has a bad ending I'm not going reread it. Get inside yourself to understand this concept. I got chills like fifty times on the way to the ending, but it truly means nothing after the ending.

Yeah, gotta agree with Icesong here. The other 99% of the game was amazing. I don't think many people are denying that. But the ending is what you leave with and in this case, it left us all with a bitter taste in our mouths. To quote EDI: "and just like that, the magic is gone." Who wants to be left with that at the end of such an amazing story?

[Shaoken]

Reading the OP's post I have no clue what he's complaining about; saying the ending is RGB IS an oversimplification; if you're being honest each of the three endings are different in the sense they logically have different outcomes, even if we don't actually see any of it (let's see, in Red the Geth are wiped out along with Edi, that's a very different ending from Green where all life is now part human and part synthetic. So there is a greater difference beyond the colour of the wave, we just are denied the chance to see it).

And the OP wonders why Bioware employees don't like talking to us, because plenty of posters rip apart their posts line for line looking for hidden insults or riddles and throw it back in their faces. Woo's comment was that Bioware has plenty of people who, you know, are paid to make a game and can come up with their own ideas, instead of the games being made in reaction to fan requests. Nothing elitist. But now people are cutting out half of what was actually said and most of he context, which is only going to make Bioware claim up more.

[GoblinSapper]

Post the COMPLETE quote.

Snakedude4life wrote...

But who asked for this ending? What feedback showed you (or rather the designers) that we wanted "space magic"? or a ending that can be summed as "Red, Green or Blue"? Also, did the feedback show that people who might want to import an ME1 Face would have problems?

I'm sorry. I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they would like to implement in the game. I didn't realize that each and every facet of the game needed to be in response to a fan's request.

If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

(I still would like to hear how you guys missed that)

I would be wary of making such assumptions. Since you aren't on the development team, you can't really know if it was missed, what the issues invovled are, or how or why it appears in the final game. This is a common assumption when players find bugs in the game, but few bugs are well and truly "missed," as you define it.

[Shepard Wins]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

I would avoid using other people's video's to make your point when otherwise possible. I consider it lazy. Even though you may agree with the general idea of it...the fact remains how, and why, you got to that point is more important and completely independent of the videos explanation or what have you.

You have unique opinions (I assume) so use them. Telling Bioware to "watch this other guys opinion and consider it my own" is not productive. Even with agreements there can be subtle differences that are important. How you give your opinion can be important.

The video expresses what I feel perfectly. Is there something wrong with that?

[Trishot]

"I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with
talented, creative individuals"

Yes, I was operating under the same assumption, which is why I bought a Collectors Edition for your game. However, given the recent track record I am being forced to re-assess the situation and conclude all the talented staff left BioWare.

[2484Stryker]

Aulis Vaara wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Read the whole quote. He's saying Bioware has talented people with their own ideas they want in the game and not everything has to be passed through fan requests. It's their game.. How you can't understand this quote is scary... lol

Here, try again lol

I'm
sorry. I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with
talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they
would like to implement in the game. I didn't realize that each and
every facet of the game needed to be in response to a fan's request.

You tell people to read the whole quote and then proceed to quote half of it. Well done, sir, well done indeed.

Indeed.  You're a pure genius, Dridengx.  I salute you. /sarcasm

[GoblinSapper]

Rawgrim wrote...

Woo probably just had a bad day. Nothing more

[Torrible]

Shaoken wrote...

Reading the OP's post I have no clue what he's complaining about; saying the ending is RGB IS an oversimplification; if you're being honest each of the three endings are different in the sense they logically have different outcomes, even if we don't actually see any of it (let's see, in Red the Geth are wiped out along with Edi, that's a very different ending from Green where all life is now part human and part synthetic. So there is a greater difference beyond the colour of the wave, we just are denied the chance to see it).

And the OP wonders why Bioware employees don't like talking to us, because plenty of posters rip apart their posts line for line looking for hidden insults or riddles and throw it back in their faces. Woo's comment was that Bioware has plenty of people who, you know, are paid to make a game and can come up with their own ideas, instead of the games being made in reaction to fan requests. Nothing elitist. But now people are cutting out half of what was actually said and most of he context, which is only going to make Bioware claim up more.

[WizenSlinky0]

Shepard Wins wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

I would avoid using other people's video's to make your point when otherwise possible. I consider it lazy. Even though you may agree with the general idea of it...the fact remains how, and why, you got to that point is more important and completely independent of the videos explanation or what have you.

You have unique opinions (I assume) so use them. Telling Bioware to "watch this other guys opinion and consider it my own" is not productive. Even with agreements there can be subtle differences that are important. How you give your opinion can be important.

The video expresses what I feel perfectly. Is there something wrong with that?

Yes (and no depending on how you approach it), because even if you feel it represents it perfectly it is still not your opinion. That inherently lowers the value of your input. When we throw up other peoples video's...which other people are constantly showing up the same videos...it limits the total number of actual "opinions" that are being focused. Not all opinions are created equal. The more detailed and developed it is on a personal level the more weight it can carry.

Saying "This is my opinion done by somebody else and I agree with him" is not an opinion that carried much weight. At least not with me. My point being that there could be those in Bioware with the same opinion. Who are specifically looking for specific, player oriented feedback and not factoring in repeating opinions into their data.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 30 mars 2012 - 01:49 .

[Shepard Wins]

Shaoken wrote...

(1)Reading the OP's post I have no clue what he's complaining about; (2)saying the ending is RGB IS an oversimplification; if you're being honest each of the three endings are different in the sense they logically have different outcomes, even if we don't actually see any of it (let's see, in Red the Geth are wiped out along with Edi, that's a very different ending from Green where all life is now part human and part synthetic. So there is a greater difference beyond the colour of the wave, (3)we just are denied the chance to see it).

(4)And the OP wonders why Bioware employees don't like talking to us, because plenty of posters rip apart their posts line for line looking for hidden insults or riddles and throw it back in their faces. Woo's comment was that Bioware has plenty of people who, you know, are paid to make a game and can come up with their own ideas, instead of the games being made in reaction to fan requests. Nothing elitist. But now people are cutting out half of what was actually said and most of he context, which is only going to make Bioware claim up more.

1) I'd like to see some response from BW to the points I've raised, 2) Not sure what you mean, the whole RGB thing is in the context of Stanley's repsonse I've quoted in the OP, 3) EXACTLY, you've just posted an argument against the endings; 4)No I don't wonder why BW employees don't like talking to us, I understand how it can be unpleasant on the internetz, that's why I'm trying to be civil.

[Hajilestone]

Reading things like this makes me lose what little faith I have left in Bioware after the things they've done regarding the ending. They went from "we listen to our fans and their feedback" to "its the teams artistic vision" and after that didn't work "we'll address it in April". I'm beginning to doubt they will ever fix anything and if they do, they had ending DLC planned all along, which would be the complete opposite of the Bioware that was my favorite game developer up until they started doing things like this.

[Shepard Wins]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Shepard Wins wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

I would avoid using other people's video's to make your point when otherwise possible. I consider it lazy. Even though you may agree with the general idea of it...the fact remains how, and why, you got to that point is more important and completely independent of the videos explanation or what have you.

You have unique opinions (I assume) so use them. Telling Bioware to "watch this other guys opinion and consider it my own" is not productive. Even with agreements there can be subtle differences that are important. How you give your opinion can be important.

The video expresses what I feel perfectly. Is there something wrong with that?

Yes (and no depending on how you approach it), because even if you feel it represents it perfectly it is still not your opinion. That inherently lowers the value of your input. When we throw up other peoples video's...which other people are constantly showing up the same videos...it limits the total number of actual "opinions" that are being focused. Not all opinions are created equal. The more detailed and developed it is on a personal level the more weight it can carry.

Saying "This is my opinion done by somebody else and I agree with him" is not an opinion that carried much weight. At least not with me. My point being that there could be those in Bioware with the same opinion. Who are specifically looking for specific, player oriented feedback and not factoring in repeating opinions into their data.

The original thread in which this video has been linked has not recieved
any posts from BW staff. I think it's exceptionally well-made and I'd
like to bring BW's attention to it. I'm also addressing other issues in
my OP, not directly connected to the opinions on the ending.

Modifié par Shepard Wins, 30 mars 2012 - 01:55 .

[jamskinner]

Shepard Wins wrote...

BioWare pride themselves on the account of listening to their fans. I'd really, really like to believe that. They have proven to listen before (not necessarily in matters connected to the ME3 endings backlash).

So:

Shepard Wins wrote, in another thread:

Stanley Woo wrote...

Snakedude4life wrote...

But
who asked for this ending? What feedback showed you (or rather the
designers) that we wanted "space magic"? or a ending that can be summed
as "Red, Green or Blue"? Also, did the feedback show that people
who might want to import an ME1 Face would have problems?

I'm
sorry. I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with
talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they
would like to implement in the game. I didn't realize that each and
every facet of the game needed to be in response to a fan's request.

If
you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as
"Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then
complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has
slapped that label onto it, not us.

(...)

Wow.
Just wow. I know this is a post from the beginning of the thread way
back, but I feel I have to address this. Mr Woo, pardon me, but what in
the name of all that's holy are you talking about? You're basically
saying people cannot fathom the endings. Accusing people of "summing up
the conclusion of a multi-part epic game as RGB" is just a really
polite way of saying "it's not our fault you're too stupid to
comprehend our artistic ending".

It's not our fault that the
endings are so ill-recieved. It's the fault of the team who created
those endings. There is a proverb in my native language (Polish) "Do
not turn the cat around by its tail". Do not blame others for what
you(BioWare) have done wrong. Well that's exactly what you did here, Mr
Woo. And it's insulting. And it really takes a lot of self control for
me to keep civil right now, as I have just been insulted. Again. (The
first insult was the ending - this is how I feel).

The endings
are being summarized as "RGB" because they are exactly that. I've
recently found an amazingly well done video that states exactly almost
everything that is wrong with the ending. Here it is:  .
Now, if you do listen to your fans at BioWare, this is a perfect
summary of why over 50 000 people (and that's just the number from the
Retake group on facebook) disliked the endings. I do believe you should
watch it. Yeah, I know it's almost 40 minutes long. But thanks to that
it's really detailed.

I also believe you should watch this  .
This is a reaction to the endings of one of the players. It's all
polite, no rage there. It was recorded by this player's brother with
what seems to be a camera he (the Player) was unaware of. He's just
confused and disappointed.

That's what this ending achieves.
Confusion and disappointment for thousands of people. These are not
singular cases, that's how majority of players reacted to the endings.

I'm
posting this, seeing you also post here, Mr Woo, and I do hope you read
this. But most of all I hope you see the videos I've linked. They
really say it all.

Here's the link: http://social.biowar...224/50#10763585

Sadly, this has remained unanswered and the thread was locked a few pages after that, with an explanation:

I think we have exhausted discussion on the original purpose of this thread. thank you for all the cool discussion, everyone.

End of line.

Well I am not exhausted yet. I was sincerely hoping to see Mr Woo, Mr Epler or other BioWare rep here on the boards to address this, seeing how much they've posted in the original thread. I especially wanted to bring their attention to two videos linked in my post quoted above. And I got disappointed.

I'm being stubborn here because I still feel insulted over this:

Stanley Woo wrote...

Snakedude4life wrote...

But
who asked for this ending? What feedback showed you (or rather the
designers) that we wanted "space magic"? or a ending that can be summed
as "Red, Green or Blue"? Also, did the feedback show that people
who might want to import an ME1 Face would have problems?

I'm
sorry. I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with
talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they
would like to implement in the game. I didn't realize that each and
every facet of the game needed to be in response to a fan's request.

If
you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as
"Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then
complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has
slapped that label onto it, not us.

(...)

Why it's insulting I've stated above, in my own quoted post. This is not BioWare listening to their fans. This is BioWare treating their fans like idiots. Locking the original thread now feels even more like stonewalling. I can't really speak for everyone but I have not been listened to. I've been ignored.

So my request is, BioWare - watch those videos. Let us know you have. Just an acknowledgement would do right now, even if you disagree completely with what's in them. That wouldn't make people happy but it would prove you do listen.

Well.

Do you listen?

I don't think you get what he said.  He was saying mass effect is not a design by commitee fan game.  Some bit of input probably does come from fans,but most comes from the game designers.  Now you may not like what they came up with.  Fans are not entitled to actually design the game.

[brian_breed]

Shepard Wins wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

(1)Reading the OP's post I have no clue what he's complaining about; (2)saying the ending is RGB IS an oversimplification; if you're being honest each of the three endings are different in the sense they logically have different outcomes, even if we don't actually see any of it (let's see, in Red the Geth are wiped out along with Edi, that's a very different ending from Green where all life is now part human and part synthetic. So there is a greater difference beyond the colour of the wave, (3)we just are denied the chance to see it).

(4)And the OP wonders why Bioware employees don't like talking to us, because plenty of posters rip apart their posts line for line looking for hidden insults or riddles and throw it back in their faces. Woo's comment was that Bioware has plenty of people who, you know, are paid to make a game and can come up with their own ideas, instead of the games being made in reaction to fan requests. Nothing elitist. But now people are cutting out half of what was actually said and most of he context, which is only going to make Bioware claim up more.

1) I'd like to see some response from BW to the points I've raised, 2) Not sure what you mean, the whole RGB thing is in the context of Stanley's repsonse I've quoted in the OP, 3) EXACTLY, you've just posted an argument against the endings; 4)No I don't wonder why BW employees don't like talking to us, I understand how it can be unpleasant on the internetz, that's why I'm trying to be civil.

But it doesn't seem very civil to me (1) to call someone out by name in an effort (2) to draw them into a debate 
where you've already defined the terms.