229 réponses à ce sujet

[Shepard Wins]

jamskinner wrote...

[The whole OP quoted,Sorry about that but it was getting big)

I don't think you get what he said.  He was saying mass effect is not a design by commitee fan game.  Some bit of input probably does come from fans,but most comes from the game designers.  Now you may not like what they came up with.  Fans are not entitled to actually design the game.

Of course they aren't. But are they prohibited from expressing their opinion? The whole "entitled" argument is invalid because either BW changes the ending or they don't. The entire ME series is made for fans. They buy the games (and all the merchandise). They have the right to voice their feelings.

I've been buying ME from BioWare because I loved it. With the ending, it was ruined for me. So: I say I didn't like the ending. I hope they replace it, but of course I can't make them do it. I can refuse to accept the current ending and finish the story for myself in my head. It's that simple.

Modifié par Shepard Wins, 30 mars 2012 - 02:04 .

[xxskyshadowxx]

"I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with
talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they
would like to implement in the game."

Ion Storm may disagree with this sentiment...since they wrote the ending first....years ago in their game.

[dreman9999]

Corrik Ronis wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's like all of bsn community ignored everything in the game but the ending.
Yes, the ending is bad but what about the rest of the game. Get over yourselves people.

The rest of the game is riddled with error, flaws, and issues so you are out on that count. Also, despite the popular saying the journey is not the only thing that matters.

Hold the line.

Nope... Just because you have some bug doesn't make the game bad. With all the complaning going on, none of it is pointed to the rest ofthegame...Just the ending.... So yes, you guys are ignoring the rest of the game.

[dreman9999]

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

"I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with
talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they
would like to implement in the game."

Ion Storm may disagree with this sentiment...since they wrote the ending first....years ago in their game.

You do know they changed what they originally planned.

[alex13abc]

Wow! Hadn't read that comment. BW sure needs a new PR company.

[jumpingkaede]

dreman9999 wrote...

Corrik Ronis wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's like all of bsn community ignored everything in the game but the ending.
Yes, the ending is bad but what about the rest of the game. Get over yourselves people.

The rest of the game is riddled with error, flaws, and issues so you are out on that count. Also, despite the popular saying the journey is not the only thing that matters.

Hold the line.

Nope... Just because you have some bug doesn't make the game bad. With all the complaning going on, none of it is pointed to the rest ofthegame...Just the ending.... So yes, you guys are ignoring the rest of the game.

lol there are plenty of complaints as to the rest of the game as well.

But the fans are being merciful.  It's still a good game, even with a number of bugs or things that should've been improved.  For example, the face import bug, the useless sidequest/journal system, how 90% of conversations are simply auto-dialogue, the lack of any character development for your squad, major decisions being relegated to war asset number crunching (e.g., the rachni queen), etc.

It's just the ending takes precedence now.

It's a good game.  I enjoyed it.  It's not a perfect game, and for what was supposed to be Bioware's magnum opus, it's not even as good or as fun as ME2.  (My opinion obviously, if that needs to be stated).

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 30 mars 2012 - 02:10 .

[Shepard Wins]

brian_breed wrote...

Shepard Wins wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

(1)Reading the OP's post I have no clue what he's complaining about; (2)saying the ending is RGB IS an oversimplification; if you're being honest each of the three endings are different in the sense they logically have different outcomes, even if we don't actually see any of it (let's see, in Red the Geth are wiped out along with Edi, that's a very different ending from Green where all life is now part human and part synthetic. So there is a greater difference beyond the colour of the wave, (3)we just are denied the chance to see it).

(4)And the OP wonders why Bioware employees don't like talking to us, because plenty of posters rip apart their posts line for line looking for hidden insults or riddles and throw it back in their faces. Woo's comment was that Bioware has plenty of people who, you know, are paid to make a game and can come up with their own ideas, instead of the games being made in reaction to fan requests. Nothing elitist. But now people are cutting out half of what was actually said and most of he context, which is only going to make Bioware claim up more.

1) I'd like to see some response from BW to the points I've raised, 2) Not sure what you mean, the whole RGB thing is in the context of Stanley's repsonse I've quoted in the OP, 3) EXACTLY, you've just posted an argument against the endings; 4)No I don't wonder why BW employees don't like talking to us, I understand how it can be unpleasant on the internetz, that's why I'm trying to be civil.

But it doesn't seem very civil to me (1) to call someone out by name in an effort (2) to draw them into a debate 
where you've already defined the terms. 

A valid point, but bear with me here please: I did say "Stanley or other BW employee". That's one. Two, Mr Woo was the most vocal BW rep in the original thread I'm pretty sure I've linked in the OP (the one which is now locked). I've asked him several questions in that thread. Many, many other people also did. The thread was over 50 pages long. My post was on page 50. Thread was locked n 54 I think, by Mr Woo. That's why it came across as ignoring. He and Mr Epler started answering many posts at the beginning of the thread and I was eager to participate in the discussion, since by nature of the board we don't often have the chance to converse with them so directly.

Of course, I understand they cannot address every single post. That's why I've started this thread here.

Modifié par Shepard Wins, 30 mars 2012 - 02:12 .

[xxskyshadowxx]

dreman9999 wrote...

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

"I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with
talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they
would like to implement in the game."

Ion Storm may disagree with this sentiment...since they wrote the ending first....years ago in their game.

You do know they changed what they originally planned.

Doesn't change the fact that the ending used in ME3 was used in another game over a decade ago, and they are trying to call this "Homage" their own "artistic vision" while at the same time criticizing people calling them out on it.

[Tracido]

dreman9999 wrote...

Nope... Just because you have some bug doesn't make the game bad. With all the complaning going on, none of it is pointed to the rest ofthegame...Just the ending.... So yes, you guys are ignoring the rest of the game.

Pssh I never did, but I did overlook several things from the enjoyment I was getting overall (also the getting stuck in floors, boxes thing was solved with binding 'ghost' and 'walk' to two keys, that was an annoying one and really pissed me off in MP as my bindings weren't set up for MP so lost a lot of MP points leaving a few games stuck in walls or falling through the floors), and then, it ended...

[gmdinmd]

Man, if you looked at all the statements, tweets, posts and everything else that is the some and parcel of their 'response' to this, you'll see a lot of things like this. The statement RE the cupcakes was indicitive of this ... basically boiled down to we only listen to constuctive criticism that takes into consideration how awesome mass effect is.

They either have something justifiably awesome up their sleeve or this is the largest blunder in the history of blunders. Even friends of mine that loved the ending at first now hate it. I don't 'hate it', because I think it was and indoctrination ending and there is a lot more coming, but if I am wrong then it was shoddy at best.

I've achieved patience. I'm willing to wait to see if this is the most brilliant setup in all of gaming or the most astounding mishandling of a AAA property ever. That's the way I see this.

[Mylia Stenetch]

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

Doesn't change the fact that the ending used in ME3 was used in another game over a decade ago, and they are trying to call this "Homage" their own "artistic vision" while at the same time criticizing people calling them out on it.

Wait so games (or other forms of entertainment per say) cannot use anything like an ending if another entertainment medium (eg a game) did it. Does it also count for plots too?

• [wo]man vs. nature
• [wo]man vs. man
• [wo]man vs. the environment
• [wo]man vs. machines/technology
• [wo]man vs. the supernatural
• [wo]man vs. self
• [wo]man vs. god/religion

[Twisted and Mean]

When Bioware calls the ass-pulled color-coded explosions, which provided no closure and made no sense for ME universe, as a deep and thoughtful "conclusion of a multi-part epic game series", I'm starting to wonder if they secretly hired the Pointy-haired Boss to make management decisions. The though first came to me when I played TOR, but now I'm almost certain.

I don't even want to start about treating fans like spoiled brats for their negative feedback. But it's simply bad for everyone, Bioware included.

[MickHam]

EVL65R wrote...

I'm sure you've seen the prerequisite requirement on the back if the disc case that you need an iq of 130+ to truely understand the depth, complexity and artistic integrity to the conclusion to the series.

But I'm only an electrician and audio visual installer. I don't go to art exhibits, listen to beatnik music or wear a beret. I do have a goatee though if that helps.

I understand your frustration. They helped us fall in love with the best sci fi universe of our generation, if nit ever. Getting reactions like this must show the developers how much we love and care for this series to see it end like that. Am I right? I've seen it written somewhere else, the bigger the love the bigger the heartbreak.

My iq is 130+ but i still dont get the ending...
Iq rec is to high for me. Think I'm going to download a new brain.

[jumpingkaede]

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

Doesn't change the fact that the ending used in ME3 was used in another game over a decade ago, and they are trying to call this "Homage" their own "artistic vision" while at the same time criticizing people calling them out on it.

Wait so games (or other forms of entertainment per say) cannot use anything like an ending if another entertainment medium (eg a game) did it. Does it also count for plots too?

• [wo]man vs. nature
• [wo]man vs. man
• [wo]man vs. the environment
• [wo]man vs. machines/technology
• [wo]man vs. the supernatural
• [wo]man vs. self
• [wo]man vs. god/religion

Idea vs. Expression of an idea.  IMO.

Man vs. Man is an idea.

Man who is a down on his luck amateur boxer trying to fight his way to the big leagues who gets his shot because the Boxing World Champion wants to drum up some publicity but underestimates the determination of the said Man and they instead fight to an epic and monumental draw is an expression of that idea.

Something like that.

[AlexXIV]

Stanley Woo was being a bit snarky in his response, but other than that he has a point. Some people forget that Bioware employ writers, who decide what the story is going to be like. It worked in DA:O, ME, ME2. Why however it didn't work in DA2 and the ME3 ending we don't know. But it was still their job to create the story. Fan feedback is all nice and fine, but it can't be that we make like polls and which ever story twist gets the most votes makes it into the game.

Certainly we didn't want an ending like this, and I am pretty sure it wasn't planned like this. I am still convinced that the ending we got is a result of deadlines and the development rushing to hit it. It happened in Witcher 2 too, btw. It seems now common in RPG that they run out of time. Witcher was even delayed and still had a rushed ending that just seemed to be cut as if everyone dropped work and went making party or something.

Whatever the reasons are, they probably have nothing to do with Bioware not listening. It was probably about making a wrong call for one reason or anything. Which is still bad but something that can happen.

[KcK__]

Woo speaks the truth.

[Rob_Nix]

Who is Stanley Woo?

[acidic-ph0]

Yeah, I read that post by Woo too and felt quite insulted. Talk about putting your foot in your mouth...

Mr. Woo if you read this. Apologize. Seriously, you acted like a fool with those comments and just made Bioware/Fan relations a LOT worse. You were even stupid enough to drop the word "entitled" as well which at this point in time, just seeing that word in ANY post related to the fans displeasure at the endings is INSULTING. And, no, I'm not "name-calling"... I'm just telling you the truth. That was a truly an ASININE thing to say at this time and if you want to in any way improve the way fans feel about Bioware (and you) then take a page out of Jessica Merizan's playbook and treat us like humans. We (the fans) are rightfully pissed at ALL of Bioware's responses right now, and your statements have just made things worse.

Merizan is actually a great example of PR done right. I still take everything she says with a grain of salt, but at least she attempts to talk to fans with respect and doesn't resort to insulting tactics like you did.

Just to reiterate, we're demanding that a broken product gets fixed. And I do think that an audience/customers are "entitled" to that don't you think? Much like how ME: Deception was absolutely BROKEN all around as well.

You want respect Mr. Woo. Earn it! Because at this point, you've lost all of mine, and I'm sure many others feel the same way.

[spartan5127]

Hopefully once Q1 is over bioware can come out and say they dun goofed big time.

THAT would show integrity.

[Srau]

Why it's insulting I've stated above, in my own quoted post. This is not BioWare listening to their fans. This is BioWare treating their fans like idiots. Locking the original thread now feels even more like stonewalling. I can't really speak for everyone but I have not been listened to. I've been ignored.

So my request is, BioWare - watch those videos. Let us know you have. Just an acknowledgement would do right now, even if you disagree completely with what's in them. That wouldn't make people happy but it would prove you do listen.

Well.

Do you listen?

PR control trick : do whatever legit things it takes to set off an angry reaction from target customer group.
Said group will then most likely become either verbally or physically violent effectively discrediting themselves.
It's a win win situation if you start assaulting them, do not fall into the trick, stay civil and hold the line !

[Rob_Nix]

AlexXIV wrote...

Stanley Woo was being a bit snarky in his response, but other than that he has a point. Some people forget that Bioware employ writers, who decide what the story is going to be like. It worked in DA:O, ME, ME2. Why however it didn't work in DA2 and the ME3 ending we don't know. But it was still their job to create the story. Fan feedback is all nice and fine, but it can't be that we make like polls and which ever story twist gets the most votes makes it into the game.

Certainly we didn't want an ending like this, and I am pretty sure it wasn't planned like this. I am still convinced that the ending we got is a result of deadlines and the development rushing to hit it. It happened in Witcher 2 too, btw. It seems now common in RPG that they run out of time. Witcher was even delayed and still had a rushed ending that just seemed to be cut as if everyone dropped work and went making party or something.

Whatever the reasons are, they probably have nothing to do with Bioware not listening. It was probably about making a wrong call for one reason or anything. Which is still bad but something that can happen.

There are smart, talented people that make any sort of product.  Is that product is defective, I demand a new one that's not.

[weltraumhamster89]

count_4 wrote...

BioWare has indeed developed great skill in insulting players. They did it with probably every official statement as well as a lot of these unofficial ones.

They're too proud (and probably think all the praising reviews out there are actually honest) to see that they messed up.

Yes I also feel insulted by reading Mr Woo's post (and not only because I'm half polish )..
But what I don't get: What are they so "proud" of? I mean, they must know their previous games, mustn't they? And the previous lore, story, characters.. especially Com. Shepard... I just feel more then let down by BW and more than hollow since I finished ME3 2 weeks ago. And it does not go away.

"I just feel like I did nothing" - that's what the boy in the youtube video says after finishing the game. You cannot be proud of this, BW. You should be proud instead that we fans do actually care enough to notice when things don't fit well into the world you have created for us.

Modifié par weltraumhamster89, 30 mars 2012 - 02:27 .

[Shepard Wins]

Srau wrote...

Why it's insulting I've stated above, in my own quoted post. This is not BioWare listening to their fans. This is BioWare treating their fans like idiots. Locking the original thread now feels even more like stonewalling. I can't really speak for everyone but I have not been listened to. I've been ignored.

So my request is, BioWare - watch those videos. Let us know you have. Just an acknowledgement would do right now, even if you disagree completely with what's in them. That wouldn't make people happy but it would prove you do listen.

Well.

Do you listen?

PR control trick : do whatever legit things it takes to set off an angry reaction from target customer group.
Said group will then most likely become either verbally or physically violent effectively discrediting themselves.
It's a win win situation if you start assaulting them, do not fall into the trick, stay civil and hold the line !

Staying civil. And holding it. The line.

[alex13abc]

acidic-ph0 wrote...

Yeah, I read that post by Woo too and felt quite insulted. Talk about putting your foot in your mouth...

Mr. Woo if you read this. Apologize. Seriously, you acted like a fool with those comments and just made Bioware/Fan relations a LOT worse. You were even stupid enough to drop the word "entitled" as well which at this point in time, just seeing that word in ANY post related to the fans displeasure at the endings is INSULTING. And, no, I'm not "name-calling"... I'm just telling you the truth. That was a truly an ASININE thing to say at this time and if you want to in any way improve the way fans feel about Bioware (and you) then take a page out of Jessica Merizan's playbook and treat us like humans. We (the fans) are rightfully pissed at ALL of Bioware's responses right now, and your statements have just made things worse. 

Merizan is actually a great example of PR done right. I still take everything she says with a grain of salt, but at least she attempts to talk to fans with respect and doesn't resort to insulting tactics like you did. 

Just to reiterate, we're demanding that a broken product gets fixed. And I do think that an audience/customers are "entitled" to that don't you think? Much like how ME: Deception was absolutely BROKEN all around as well. 

You want respect Mr. Woo. Earn it! Because at this point, you've lost all of mine, and I'm sure many others feel the same way.

Agreed. Mrs Merizan knows how to talk to the community.

[Wrathra]

I've worked in public relations for many years. If I spoke to a client the way Mr. Woo or Mr. Priestly sometimes speak to customers - and I am a customer, as indicated by the icons under my portrait - I'd be fired. Maybe it's the nature of this particular beast that talking to your customer base like they are a bunch of idiots is the norm, I don't know.

It is unfortunate that they do not understand the reason for the backlash. Instead of basking in their own greatness, they should consider that perhaps, yes, they made a mistake. I've seen the video in the OP. It explains exactly what's wrong with the endings perfectly.

I understand they are frustrated. Dealing with irate customers and personal attacks sucks - I've done it. It's terrible. But, they are professionals and should act like it. You don't have to be a push over, but you can shut people who are out of line down without resorting to snark.  And a little empathy goes a loooooong way.

edit: clarification

Modifié par Wrathra, 30 mars 2012 - 02:30 .